Joe Papp pleads guilty to distributing drugs, pt 2

[lean mean &green]

No, we don't. And I am not defending his actions in regards to doping or dealing. I am saying that I believe his contrition is genuine. I am not sure if any of you are aware of this, but the peloton and prisons are not full of people who got busted and admitted their guilt. Admitting you did it is the exception by a wide margin.

firstly, in terms of admitting guilt i believe JP is facing federal charges. i am not a legal expert but i think that federal cases have a conviction rate well over 90%. in other words, they rarely even proceed to trial, most plead guilty and accept plea bargains. in federal courts, MOST admit guilt. (i would be happy to be corrected by someone with more legal expertise but i think they'll only confirm this). to symplify, you don't beat FEDERAL charges, they wait till they have EVERYTHING they need to get a conviction before they proceed, once they have you, you're sunk. they're profoundly different than other courts. JP has NO option but to confess.

secondly, i don't feel geniune contrition. a mountain of evidence suggests otherwise. there is a clearly observable pattern of dishonest behavior over the course of the last decade in which greed is the only driving force on decision making. it's hard for me to accept an instantaneous 180 degree turn toward genuine remorse and social responsibility which just happened to coincide with air tight cases from USADA and the federal court system.

i don't know if the info on conviction rate helps you to understand. if not we'll have to agree to disagree about "genuine-ness".

Pittsburgh Tibune Review - Conviction Rate

EDIT: in pittsburgh area (western PA district) where JP faces charges, federal courts reported a conviction rate of 99% between 2000 and 2005.

 

[flicker]

I am in no way condoning what Joe has done, but have you read the book or watched the movie called Catch Me If You Can? The story is about the infamous and quite adventurous and bold conman Frank Abagnale. After finally getting caught and serving time, he now consults and lectures at the FBI and runs a financial fraud consultancy company. I suppose what I am trying to say is that, to give Papp the benefit of the doubt, he and others like him are in the best position to expose how, why and when athletes cheat, and are probably the best people to know how to combat the cheating. To close a door on the likes of Papp, like the McQuaid and the UCI tried to do with Kohl, is potentially doing a disservice to the antidoping campaign.

Sorry have not seen the film. Have seen one of Jean- Paul Belmondos' film Breathless. About a charming pick-pocket criminal in Paris.

I find crime films fascinating. When I see Joe posting on an anti
-doping forum I am leery. I didn't know of his impending trial but to me by posting anything about anything illegal and having a cycling website I feel might jeopardize the trial.

To help the FEDs he might pull a sting operation. He might turn in names,customers, clients. drug sources,explain how drugs are moved across borders that kind of thing. Like I said before Ephedrine the most important product in the manufacturing of Methamphetamine comes from 2 factories one in India One in China. How much of that Ephedrine winds up in the cooking pots of meth labs worldwide. Do the labs that manufacture EPO or HGH respect the patents of the drug companies? From the article I read Mr. Chen is Chinese and the drugs were smuggled from China.

The FEDs have a lot of work to do. God speed.

 

[Race Radio]

i didn't know that had been proven.no rush to judgement there.



hasn't that changed a tad?



another mistake? haven't seen that one anywhere but from you.




a few example of rushing to judgement. while i personally believe that the connection that looks so obvious is there, until it all comes out, if ever, i'm not going to spout 'facts' such as these.

like i said before, it's the right thing to do.

While I admire your cutting and pasting abilities I am not sure how that proves your point.

The fact is Arnie's digital fingerprints were found on files, His IP address was used to send emails using an LNDD employee's email address, they are wanted in connection with the hacking. As I mentioned Arnie's planting of the Trojan horse was corrected within hours of publishing.

This info, couple with Arnie and Floyd's long history of lying, makes it rather easy to think that they did something wrong.

 

[patricknd]

While I admire your cutting and pasting abilities I am not sure how that proves your point.

The fact is Arnie's digital fingerprints were found on files, His IP address was used to send emails using an LNDD employee's email address, they are wanted in connection with the hacking. As I mentioned Arnie's planting of the Trojan horse was corrected within hours of publishing.

This info, couple with Arnie and Floyd's long history of lying, makes it rather easy to think that they did something wrong.

there are several inaccuracies stated as fact. "found that he had been paid by arnie a well" among others.

we're not on opposing sides as to what we believe happened. but posting statements as facts instead of opinion is wrong.

 

[flicker]

rr+patknd

Why are you talking about our demi-GOD LANDIS and his Sancho Panza Arnie on the Papp Smear thread.

Are you trying to connect the two?

I already said a long time ago that I thought Papp-smear/Landis/Arnie may be trying to monkey wrench the court system.

A terrifying Troika those three.

 

[Race Radio]

there are several inaccuracies stated as fact. "found that he had been paid by arnie a well" among others.

we're not on opposing sides as to what we believe happened. but posting statements as facts instead of opinion is wrong.

You are correct. I had remember that the person who paid had been named when it was actually only described as "Anglo-Saxon" Which we all know means Lance Armstrong

 

[Mambo95]

Let me ask you this Mambo95 - What would you have Joe do? He started his career clean and when couldn't keep up with other riders, doped along with everyone else in probably the dirtiest, most doped up sport there is. He was on at least one team with a systematic doping program in place, probably more than one. He sold EPO and PEDs to others, but certainly wasn't the only one to do so. He was caught, admitted his guilt - probably more than any other cyclist ever caught for doping, assisted USADA in what he could to catch at least one other cheat, is cooperating with federal prosecutors, and is likely going to go to prison.

What would you have him do at this point?

I may have misrepresented myself in my rant (and it was a rant). I don't really care about Joe P - he's a drug dealer, he'll go to prison, job done. I won't condemn him for keeping his dealing secrets, I'd do the same. My original rant was against people on this forum who smear riders with the doping tag with no evidence.

Someone wins and they're a doper. Because you can't win clean, according to some on here. And then there are posters who claim to have inside knowledge about the European scene and despite being American, they were ignorant about the Avon Barksdale of US cycling. No only were they ignorant, they hero worshiped him. Isn' this an 'omerta'. You guys kept the 'omerta' by not speaking out about JPs dealing. Just because you didn't know (as is the case with pros with doping in the peleton*) is not an excuse.

I was trying to highlight the hypocasy of those who defend Papp yet dencounce
the defenders of Armostrong - they're both the same.

The idea that you can't win unless you dope, as held by many on here, is not only untrue, but the most pro-doping opinion going.

*I've spoken to two riders and they have said they know no more than the average fan, and probably less because they tend to focus on their own performance. And I have no problem naming them - Geraint Thomas, Julian Dean, both undoubtedly clean in my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree...why the edginess about saying anything about Papp? Seems like the armstrong haters defend a guy who has not only doped....but deals...I myself think armstrong is a doper and want to see him nailed...but I don't think that discounts the sorta "understanding" going on here for Joe...the understanding I mean is "well, let's wait and see" and he has pleaded...after he testified he was still dealing to lots and lots of people...what is to understand and wait and see? He pleaded Guilty...and I don't think the Feds **** around with this stuff unless there are some pretty serious things going on, things they made deals on to keep this outta court and wasting time on such small bull****...and I don't think they give a **** about cycling and keeping it clean for good riding...they care about dealing...and no I don't think this is any get-smart moment where the feds were using him to get bigger fish...I think they thought he was an annoying enough fish on his own...why the defence? But that said, let the guy plea his deal, do whatever his punishment is and that is it...good luck Joe and I mean that in all honesty...but don't make a friggin hero out of him compared to all the folks who have not got caught and arent owning up yet...some weird hypocritical stuff going on via this thread...

 

[Anonymous]

firstly, in terms of admitting guilt i believe JP is facing federal charges. i am not a legal expert but i think that federal cases have a conviction rate well over 90%. in other words, they rarely even proceed to trial, most plead guilty and accept plea bargains. in federal courts, MOST admit guilt. (i would be happy to be corrected by someone with more legal expertise but i think they'll only confirm this). to symplify, you don't beat FEDERAL charges, they wait till they have EVERYTHING they need to get a conviction before they proceed, once they have you, you're sunk. they're profoundly different than other courts. JP has NO option but to confess.

secondly, i don't feel geniune contrition. a mountain of evidence suggests otherwise. there is a clearly observable pattern of dishonest behavior over the course of the last decade in which greed is the only driving force on decision making. it's hard for me to accept an instantaneous 180 degree turn toward genuine remorse and social responsibility which just happened to coincide with air tight cases from USADA and the federal court system.

i don't know if the info on conviction rate helps you to understand. if not we'll have to agree to disagree about "genuine-ness".

Pittsburgh Tibune Review - Conviction Rate

EDIT: in pittsburgh area (western PA district) where JP faces charges, federal courts reported a conviction rate of 99% between 2000 and 2005.

No, my personal observation, the one derived from correspondence with the man, is that he is genuinely contrite. You on the other hand have a grudge because he won a crit near your house. At least that is the best excuse you have given for disliking the man. I personally believe that, judging your the voracity of your condemnation, there is more here than meets the eye. Oh, and if you believe that just because the guys in federal prison plead guilty means they actually acknowledge in a real way any form of contrition, you really show how much you know about human nature.

Hey, you have an issue with Joe, and you want the world to have your same issue. I feel the same about Armstrong and Landis and Basso and...again, the list is long. Anyway, I will continue to believe in Mr Papp's acceptance of his doping and crime. You keep being mad that he won a race near your house....

 

[Anonymous]

I agree...why the edginess about saying anything about Papp? Seems like the armstrong haters defend a guy who has not only doped....but deals...I myself think armstrong is a doper and want to see him nailed...but I don't think that discounts the sorta "understanding" going on here for Joe...the understanding I mean is "well, let's wait and see" and he has pleaded...after he testified he was still dealing to lots and lots of people...what is to understand and wait and see? He pleaded Guilty...and I don't think the Feds **** around with this stuff unless there are some pretty serious things going on, things they made deals on to keep this outta court and wasting time on such small bull****...and I don't think they give a **** about cycling and keeping it clean for good riding...they care about dealing...and no I don't think this is any get-smart moment where the feds were using him to get bigger fish...I think they thought he was an annoying enough fish on his own...why the defence? But that said, let the guy plea his deal, do whatever his punishment is and that is it...good luck Joe and I mean that in all honesty...but don't make a friggin hero out of him compared to all the folks who have not got caught and arent owning up yet...some weird hypocritical stuff going on via this thread...

Good post. Try having people like lean understand it. He would rather beat on Joe than do the same for the scumbag cheats who get away with saying they were just trying it out for once to see if it made them better, etc, etc,etc.

 

[Anonymous]

No, my personal observation, the one derived from correspondence with the man, is that he is genuinely contrite. You on the other hand have a grudge because he won a crit near your house. At least that is the best excuse you have given for disliking the man. I personally believe that, judging your the voracity of your condemnation, there is more here than meets the eye. Oh, and if you believe that just because the guys in federal prison plead guilty means they actually acknowledge in a real way any form of contrition, you really show how much you know about human nature.

Hey, you have an issue with Joe, and you want the world to have your same issue. I feel the same about Armstrong and Landis and Basso and...again, the list is long. Anyway, I will continue to believe in Mr Papp's acceptance of his doping and crime. You keep being mad that he won a race near your house....

I just don't see your logic here...the fact is that people involved in fed cases plead all the time...Joe pleaded guilty...I don't want to see the guy crucified at all...let him deal with his mistake...period....over and move on I think...

 

[Anonymous]

I just don't see your logic here...the fact is that people involved in fed cases plead all the time...why? Because usually the evidence is overwhelming if the feds bother to put that sorta money and time into it...what the **** do you know about human nature thought? Because you are a star****er and got a few emails from Joe? Let's be serious...your email buddy pleaded to guilty to dealing drugs...

I have gone into prisons to conduct AA meetings hundreds of times in many different prisons. Pleading is not only the province of Federal cases, and most of the guys in the prisons I have gone into are not guilty. They plead because the system was against them and unfair and the DA's were crocked and the cops planted evidence and...the list is long. Anyway, I am not star****ing anyone here, I am merely stating my belief from the correspondence I have had with the man, and my experience in dealing with many, many people who have been through the prison system. I have always said I could be wrong about it, but that my gut tells me that he is genuine. Sorry you needed to turn in to such an a$$hole about the whole thing, but that is a reflection of who you are, not me.

 

[Anonymous]

I just don't see your logic here...the fact is that people involved in fed cases plead all the time...Joe pleaded guilty...I don't want to see the guy crucified at all...let him deal with his mistake...period....over and move on I think...

Nice delete there Cash...do you have a racing suit with a yellow stripe down the back somewhere?

 

[Anonymous]

Let me be clear here too. When you conduct your life in a way that you break the law on a regular basis, it will always be a fight to not allow the darkness of your past to creep back in. I think it has to do with the fact that once you cross a line, it is easier to do it again, and then easier to cross the next line, and then it just becomes who you are. From my experience, there is no quick fix for it. We have a saying in recovery that I love "what do you have when you take away alcohol from a drunken horse thief? A sober horse thief." I also know that convincing anyone you have changed is impossible. I also know that when people get beat on during the process of trying to change, many of those people revert back to old behaviors because they figure "hey, what the f-ck, nobody believes me anyway." A dog will always return to its vomit if real change does not take place. I just will not sign on to be one of those who beats on Joe, and also don't feel that defending what I believe about the man is wrong in any way.

We love to have a bad guy to beat on, and most of that comes from the need to know we are at least better than that guy because our own skeletons are beating at the closet door reminding us of who we we know ourselves to be. I do it. That does not change the fact that I believe the guy, and hope he finds a way to live that he can be proud of. None of us ever gets what we deserve in life, if we did, we would all be screwed. Joe just happnes to have to pay a price many who deserve it never face. That is just the way things break sometimes.

 

[Anonymous]

Nice delete there Cash...do you have a racing suit with a yellow stripe down the back somewhere?

misread you on where you were going and who you were responding to is all...guess I have a yellow stripe on my back because I clean up 90 seconds later when I recognize mistake?
OK THEN...damn I must be like so many others...

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry you needed to turn in to such an a$$hole about the whole thing, but that is a reflection of who you are, not me.


seriously man...are you kidding me? I am trying to give the guy a benefit of no judgemnt...but just do whatever the time is...and I have turned into an ***...? wow, sorry for even discussing a case of not only a user but a dealer...and please don't go on about your knowing about social crap, I have my own history...Joe let you down, so support him...hate armstrong...whatever...I can't stand armstrong as well..but I can keep reason about the issue...and yeah, you are a star ****er via papp...why not call him papa...

 

[patricknd]

I have gone into prisons to conduct AA meetings hundreds of times in many different prisons. Pleading is not only the province of Federal cases, and most of the guys in the prisons I have gone into are not guilty. They plead because the system was against them and unfair and the DA's were crocked and the cops planted evidence and...the list is long. Anyway, I am not star****ing anyone here, I am merely stating my belief from the correspondence I have had with the man, and my experience in dealing with many, many people who have been through the prison system. I have always said I could be wrong about it, but that my gut tells me that he is genuine. Sorry you needed to turn in to such an a$$hole about the whole thing, but that is a reflection of who you are, not me.

most aren't guilty? it's an admirable quality, but i think you are too trusting.

innocent people go to jail and that's a fact, which is why i'm a stickler about due process, in criminal cases and doping cases to boot. but most of the people in prison are there because they are in fact guilty. like unrepentant dopers, they're just not going to admit it, no matter what the evidence shows.

by the way, i saw something you posted recently about being 19 years sober. congratulations, it's a great thing.

 

[Anonymous]

the point is you get all fuzzy about joe while appearing anti drug...I am making certain points out here via him and my position...and you come off in in odd way...I heard this the other day about guys defending ricco and again, screaming about armstrong...like, until the king is taken down, we will defend so much bull****...I brought this up because it seems really very odd to me...a scumbag is a scumbag, period...there seems to be a little armstrong anti mafia...which is odd because I myself hate armstrong and thing he is doing serious damage to cycling (cf, last tour of ireland being three days rather than five because they paid him so much...)
But via you anti armstrong guys and your love for new email buddies and truth...? let's be ****ing serious...

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry you needed to turn in to such an a$$hole about the whole thing, but that is a reflection of who you are, not me.


seriously man...are you kidding me? I am trying to give the guy a benefit of no judgemnt...but just do whatever the time is...and I have turned into an ***...? wow, sorry for even discussing a case of not only a user but a dealer...and please don't go on about your knowing about social crap, I have my own history...Joe let you down, so support him...hate armstrong...whatever...I can't stand armstrong as well..but I can keep reason about the issue...and yeah, you are a star ****er via papp...why not call him papa...

Real bravery there in repeating an insult you weren't brave enough to keep the first time you made it. As for the fact that you turned into an a$$hole, that had do with your personal attack of me, not Joe. You know, the insult you were too much of a coward to keep out there until you were called on it. As far as your opinion of me and my motivation for believing Joe is honest about his contrition, well, let's say that if my goal in life is to star**** convicted felons, I am shooting pretty low.

 

[Anonymous]

the point is you get all fuzzy about joe while appearing anti drug...I am making certain points out here via him and my position...and you come off in in odd way...I heard this the other day about guys defending ricco and again, screaming about armstrong...like, until the king is taken down, we will defend so much bull****...I brought this up because it seems really very odd to me...a scumbag is a scumbag, period...there seems to be a little armstrong anti mafia...which is odd because I myself hate armstrong and thing he is doing serious damage to cycling (cf, last tour of ireland being three days rather than five because they paid him so much...)
But via you anti armstrong guys and your love for new email buddies and truth...? let's be ****ing serious...

Are you drinking? Don't answer, I already know.

 

[Anonymous]

most aren't guilty? it's an admirable quality, but i think you are too trusting.

innocent people go to jail and that's a fact, which is why i'm a stickler about due process, in criminal cases and doping cases to boot. but most of the people in prison are there because they are in fact guilty. like unrepentant dopers, they're just not going to admit it, no matter what the evidence shows.

by the way, i saw something you posted recently about being 19 years sober. congratulations, it's a great thing.

Uh, yea, my point was that THEY say those things about their guilt, not me. My sarcasm button is broken I guess because that didn't come across very well.

 

[patricknd]

Uh, yea, my point was that THEY say those things about their guilt, not me. My sarcasm button is broken I guess because that didn't come across very well.

i admit i was a little confused.

 

[Anonymous]

the point is you get all fuzzy about joe while appearing anti drug...I am making certain points out here via him and my position...and you come off in in odd way...I heard this the other day about guys defending ricco and again, screaming about armstrong...like, until the king is taken down, we will defend so much bull****...I brought this up because it seems really very odd to me...a scumbag is a scumbag, period...there seems to be a little armstrong anti mafia...which is odd because I myself hate armstrong and thing he is doing serious damage to cycling (cf, last tour of ireland being three days rather than five because they paid him so much...)
But via you anti armstrong guys and your love for new email buddies and truth...? let's be ****ing serious...

Which is usually judged best by someone personally familiar with what it takes to be a scumbag. Spot it, got it I always say.

 

[Anonymous]

Real bravery there in repeating an insult you weren't brave enough to keep the first time you made it. As for the fact, that had do with your personal attack of me, not Joe. You know, the insult you were too much of a coward to keep out there until you were called on it. As far as your opinion of me and my motivation for believing Joe is honest about his contrition, well, let's say that if goal in life is to star**** convicted felons, I am shooting pretty low.

hey, email your buddy Joe...who has just been so honest in his emails to you...so open....bet you he told you he was pleading gulity to selling a hundred grand of illegal drugs yes? But you know, sorry I doubted your email buddy's contrition via federal court...I can have my doubts...

 

[Anonymous]

i admit i was a little confused.

After reading it, I can understand why. I need to use the rolling eyes emoticon or something next time.