Joe Papp pleads guilty to distributing drugs, pt 2

[flicker]

His situation seems dire. I don't think so. The pro teams are always looking for another good signour. I think thats what they are called. The riders valet/ massuer/ doctor.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I know something JP is a rat and a lier......and no you can't get any lower then that.

A lier I can handle, but someone who rats out another to save his own skin is another level....

Your record is still stuck in mafia mode, I see.
For some reason, I get a picture of Jim Carey when I read your spew.
A quick spell check might make you appear less educationally challenged.

Lance and Landis deserve fans like you.

 

[Anonymous]

What can he do? People will say he's had enough decisions to make up to this point so it's his responsibility for what he's done etc (no doubt Joe is the first one to admit this). This case seems so polarising, there's nothing he can say or do which will change people's minds one way or the other.

Joe could come and post in this thread to try and explain things, but why would he do that just to be greeted by "bull****" "rot in jail" "cheater" etc. On the other hand, the longer the silence, the more people are going to be sure that he's done everything they've convicted him of.

His situation seems dire.

Thanks Ferminal.

An unflinching acceptance of the consequences of one's actions is the surest sign of true contrition that I have ever seen. I have never read anything in the past year from Joe but that. Maybe it was fake, but I just don't think so. Because of my past, I have known many people who did some really bad things. Things that make using PED's or selling them seem like child's play. What they did then and who they are today because of that is the point with me. From the experience I have with corresponding with Joe, I believe his steps towards leaving that way of life are genuine. That doesn't excuse his previous actions, nor does it mean I believe he should suffer no consequences. What I do believe is that the man he is today is not the man he was in 2007. That differs completely with people like Mr Armstrong, or Mr Landis, or Mr Basso, or Mr Ricco, or Mr Valverde, or Mr DiLuca, or Mr Bruyneel, or Mr Lefevere, or Mr Charmichael...well, the list is long. They are the men they always were, and that is the sign of weak character. From my experience, Joe is trying to change. Sometimes there are bumps in that process, but from what I see, he is headed in the right direction. I refuse to be one of those that beats him as he tries to change. You all can do that if you want, I just hope that you are shown more mercy should you ever face a need to change something that dramatic in your life.

 

[SpeedWay]

131313 has posted the best summary of this so far as I'm concerned.

You obviously have a great deal of common sense(why r u posting here?). Your take is righteous also as I would expect by your post count being inversely proportional to the quality of your post. Just the opposite of the keepers of the key around here.

 

[Anonymous]

You obviously have a great deal of common sense(why r u posting here?). Your take is righteous also as I would expect by your post count being inversely proportional to the quality of your post. Just the opposite of the keepers of the key around here.

Whiny McSaynothing rears his moronic head...

 

[Ferminal]

SpeedWay makes Progressor look like an exemplary contributor.

 

[Anonymous]

Been watching a bit too much Sopranos? The reason why omerta is alive and well is asshats like this.

Maybe he was a client of Eposino and is worried about a knock on his door.

I know some forumites have admitted to using PEDs, if that website advertised so openly maybe some residents here are a little worried about a few things...

 

[patricknd]

131313 and mambo 95 have valid points. in jp's case there is a lot of cautioning here about 'waiting for more reports to come out', wait for more of the story, because 'all we have are vague news reports'. go look at the floyd warrant thread and see how often the call for those same standards appears. there is a double standard here, and i think a lot of people are willing to give joe papp the benefit of the doubt because of who he isn't.

i think most of us would like to believe that he's repentant, but let's face it. his *** was in trouble, not just for a hot test, but dealing. he was facing criminal charges, not just a 2 year suspension.his best hope was a plea, and when you're negotiating that sentence, appearing contrite counts. the fact is future convicts have lots of come to jesus moments, and very few last.

i'm not ready to say that he's the worst of the worst, but i also don't find him one bit better than any other cheat. they're all part of the same problem. only time will tell if he's truly sorry for what he's done, or if he's only sorry he was caught.

 

[Anonymous]

131313 and mambo 95 have valid points. in jp's case there is a lot of cautioning here about 'waiting for more reports to come out', wait for more of the story, because 'all we have are vague news reports'. go look at the floyd warrant thread and see how often the call for those same standards appears. there is a double standard here, and i think a lot of people are willing to give joe papp the benefit of the doubt because of who he isn't.

i think most of us would like to believe that he's repentant, but let's face it. his *** was in trouble, not just for a hot test, but dealing. he was facing criminal charges, not just a 2 year suspension.his best hope was a plea, and when you're negotiating that sentence, appearing contrite counts. the fact is future convicts have lots of come to jesus moments, and very few last.

i'm not ready to say that he's the worst of the worst, but i also don't find him one bit better than any other cheat. they're all part of the same problem. only time will tell if he's truly sorry for what he's done, or if he's only sorry he was caught.

Why should we show someone like Landis the same consideration? He doesn't even have the balls to admit he doped when he was clearly doped. Just because he says he is innocent?

 

[patricknd]

Why should we show someone like Landis the same consideration? He doesn't even have the balls to admit he doped when he was clearly doped. Just because he says he is innocent?

evryone should be shown the same consideration because it's the right thing to do. the landis warrant reports changed as more of the story came out, i expect there will be more changes in the papp case as well. rather than making snap judgements, the fair thing in both cases is to reserve judgement until the details become known, from more reliable sources than the early reports that generally are short on details.

 

[Race Radio]

131313 and mambo 95 have valid points. in jp's case there is a lot of cautioning here about 'waiting for more reports to come out', wait for more of the story, because 'all we have are vague news reports'. go look at the floyd warrant thread and see how often the call for those same standards appears. there is a double standard here, and i think a lot of people are willing to give joe papp the benefit of the doubt because of who he isn't.

i think most of us would like to believe that he's repentant, but let's face it. his *** was in trouble, not just for a hot test, but dealing. he was facing criminal charges, not just a 2 year suspension.his best hope was a plea, and when you're negotiating that sentence, appearing contrite counts. the fact is future convicts have lots of come to jesus moments, and very few last.

i'm not ready to say that he's the worst of the worst, but i also don't find him one bit better than any other cheat. they're all part of the same problem. only time will tell if he's truly sorry for what he's done, or if he's only sorry he was caught.

Dealers, Doctors, DS' that pressure riders, Governing bodies that look the other way, Star riders that pretend there is not an issue, intimidate anyone who says there is, and ask fans to believe in miracles....these are the dirtbags of our sport.

It is now clear that Joe was not just a dealer but also ran a website that educated and encouraged doping. It will take years, if not decades, of good deeds to change the poison that he grew.

As for the benefit of the doubt, I do not see people asking for this. I do think it would be good to understand the timeline which is still hazy. As for a comparison to Landis. Understand that the Landis' hacking case has been covered for 4 years. There is a large amount of evidence in the public domain. Floyd and Arnie are proven liars. So far all there is for Papp is a short press release so I can understand why some would like more info.

 

[patricknd]

Dealers, Doctors, DS' that pressure riders, Governing bodies that look the other way, Star riders that pretend there is not an issue, intimidate anyone who says there is, and ask fans to believe in miracles....these are the dirtbags of our sport.

It is now clear that Joe was not just a dealer but also ran a website that educated and encouraged doping. It will take years, if not decades, of good deeds to change the poison that he grew.
As for the benefit of the doubt, I do not see people asking for this. I do think it would be good to understand the timeline which is still hazy. As for a comparison to Landis. Understand that the Landis' hacking case has been covered for 4 years. There is a large amount of evidence in the public domain. Floyd and Arnie are proven liars. So far all there is for Papp is a short press release so I can understand why some would like more info.

you're right about the poison and the good deeds required to overcome it. definitely one of the best assesments i've seen.

as to the hacking case, there is a lot that is still unclear. initial reports were international warrants, then that changed. details about the ACTUAL warrants are still fuzzy, some say for questioning, some say for the hacking, and that's what i'm talking about when i say apply the same standards to all.

the justice system rightly holds back information so they don't compromise their investigations, but i think too many people want to make judgement on 'facts' not in evidence. what's actual and what's admissable are often two very different things, and that's as it should be. remember that sometimes to protect the innocent you must protect the guilty as well. and that is why the same standards should apply.

 

[BroDeal]

It is now clear that Joe was not just a dealer but also ran a website that educated and encouraged doping. It will take years, if not decades, of good deeds to change the poison that he grew.

Yeah, sure, dude. Start living in the current century. It's the internet. Information wants to be free and all that. If someone cannot post information at one site, they will post it somewhere else. Anyone who wants to find that information can easily search and find it. The centralized, push based world of information control is dying. It is pull now, baby.

Hack the planet (but not the LNDD).

 

[lean mean &green]

Yeah, sure, dude. Start living in the current century. It's the internet. Information wants to be free and all that. If someone cannot post information at one site, they will post it somewhere else. Anyone who wants to find that information can easily search and find it. The centralized, push based world of information control is dying. It is pull now, baby.

Hack the planet (but not the LNDD).

so you feel it's ok to post anything you want to the internet if you want to?

in order to defend JP we have to suspend any concept of personal responsibility and good judgement. what does that tell you?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Whiny McSaynothing rears his moronic head...

As I was reading down this thread from where I left it last night I was thinking to myself, I wonder what Speedway's opinion on this subject is.
There it was, as on topic as usual.

 

[patricknd]

+1

And to stop the spread of what's-his-face's lies/distortions/fantasy: I in no way benefited or have benefited monetarily from doping, coming clean about doping, cooperating, etc. Add up all of the $ and hidden costs, and it's a massive net negative, and to insinuate that my writing a blog is some how profitable or lucrative...?! yeahhh, right. fool. You're not Mike Fraysse by any chance, are you?

I don't know who that guy is (Mike? Mike Friedman? Danny? Danny Boy?), why he hates me so much, but I appreciate everyone's stepping in and trying to separate skewed opinion from fact and reality.

i liked this one.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

There's a huge difference between Floyd and Joe, and their cases. Most significant, to me at least, is that Joe is now admitting he was wrong, admitting his guilt, and accepting whatever punishment he gets for doing so, and has been taking this path for at least two years.

Floyd on the other hand continues to deny everything, even after being convicted in two courts (hearings - USADA and CAS). During that time he did all he could to smear, humiliate, and damage others in the process. He's shown no interest in cooperating, or admitting anything at any step of the way, even in the fact of irrefutable evidence. His attorney even blatantly lied on Larry King the other day, as both of them continued to try to obfuscate the issue of doping, and Floyd's cases; both related to Floyd's doping, and to his hiring a hacker.

Both guys f*d up, big time. But at least Joe has the balls to admit it.

 

[WD-40.]

I'm not sure what to think of JP. Although I do not feel he belongs in prison.

He started his career clean and when couldn't keep up with other riders, doped along with everyone else in probably the dirtiest, most doped up sport there is.

But I'm not convinced that cycling is any worse doping wise than many other sports out there; ie, athletics, XC Skiing, ...etc.

Its just that there is a hell of talk about it on cycling forums, so much thats its hard to avoid it even if you really want to. Maybe cycling fans infatuation with doping talk will die down some day as its been the in thing for a few years now, but sadly I doubt it will anytime soon.

 

[BroDeal]

so you feel it's ok to post anything you want to the internet if you want to?

Yup. Of course we could always have a Ministry of Truth to decide what information and opinions people are allowed to post. Maybe we could even build a great firewall that determines what people can read. Works great for China..and soon Australia.

in order to defend JP we have to suspend any concept of personal responsibility and good judgement. what does that tell you?

I am not seeing a lot of people defending him here. That does not mean we have to segue into the ridiculous by posting asinine exaggeration like Joe has poisoned the world for decades to come, as if anyone who wants to know how to use PEDs cannot easily find the information.

 

[Anonymous]

so you feel it's ok to post anything you want to the internet if you want to?

in order to defend JP we have to suspend any concept of personal responsibility and good judgement. what does that tell you?

No, we don't. And I am not defending his actions in regards to doping or dealing. I am saying that I believe his contrition is genuine. I am not sure if any of you are aware of this, but the peloton and prisons are not full of people who got busted and admitted their guilt. Admitting you did it is the exception by a wide margin.

 

[flicker]

Originally Posted by Race Radio
It is now clear that Joe was not just a dealer but also ran a website that educated and encouraged doping. It will take years, if not decades, of good deeds to change the poison that he grew.

This is what has disturbed me about the posters, or posers whatever you call them.

When I saw that people on cyclingnews forum were communicating with Papp my hackles rose. That because he was a suspended rider who knows how to beat the anti-doping system. I was afraid the posters on this site were trying to learn Papps sly tricks. I can Not associate with those people.

 

[elapid]

Originally Posted by Race Radio
It is now clear that Joe was not just a dealer but also ran a website that educated and encouraged doping. It will take years, if not decades, of good deeds to change the poison that he grew.

This is what has disturbed me about the posters, or posers whatever you call them.

When I saw that people on cyclingnews forum were communicating with Papp my hackles rose. That because he was a suspended rider who knows how to beat the anti-doping system. I was afraid the posters on this site were trying to learn Papps sly tricks. I can Not associate with those people.

I am in no way condoning what Joe has done, but have you read the book or watched the movie called Catch Me If You Can? The story is about the infamous and quite adventurous and bold conman Frank Abagnale. After finally getting caught and serving time, he now consults and lectures at the FBI and runs a financial fraud consultancy company. I suppose what I am trying to say is that, to give Papp the benefit of the doubt, he and others like him are in the best position to expose how, why and when athletes cheat, and are probably the best people to know how to combat the cheating. To close a door on the likes of Papp, like the McQuaid and the UCI tried to do with Kohl, is potentially doing a disservice to the antidoping campaign.

 

[Race Radio]

Yeah, sure, dude. Start living in the current century. It's the internet. Information wants to be free and all that. If someone cannot post information at one site, they will post it somewhere else. Anyone who wants to find that information can easily search and find it. The centralized, push based world of information control is dying. It is pull now, baby.

Hack the planet (but not the LNDD).

I am very aware that the information and resources are out there on the internet. That does not mean I should applaud the dealers and enablers.

 

[Race Radio]

as to the hacking case, there is a lot that is still unclear. initial reports were international warrants, then that changed. details about the ACTUAL warrants are still fuzzy, some say for questioning, some say for the hacking, and that's what i'm talking about when i say apply the same standards to all.

the justice system rightly holds back information so they don't compromise their investigations, but i think too many people want to make judgement on 'facts' not in evidence. what's actual and what's admissable are often two very different things, and that's as it should be. remember that sometimes to protect the innocent you must protect the guilty as well. and that is why the same standards should apply.

The hacking case has been covered extensively, and accurately, in the European media. We have known for 4 years that Arnie's IP address was associated with the hacked documents. We know who the hacker was, how much he was paid, and what his methods were. We also know who had the most motivation to pay the hacker and who referred to the hacked documents in the court case. Of course there is more to learn but the only mis-reporting that I have seen so far was that the Trojan horse came from Arnie and the Type of arrest warrant that was issued. Both of these mistakes were corrected within hours.

There is a large amount of evidence regarding the hacking case. Arnie and Floyd are proven liars. So far all I know is that Papp sold dope to 187 customers using a website. It is enough for me to come to a conclusion about him but I can see how others might need more info.

 

[patricknd]

Not exactly. It has been about a year.

Arnie sent out the hacked documents to various media sources back in 2007 but at the time this was all the evidence the French police had. It was only last year when the French Police arrested a hacker for hacking into the Greenpeace computers and found that he had been paid by Arnie as well. A summons was issued for Arnie and Floyd, but they ignored it, so now an arrest warrant has been issued.

i didn't know that had been proven.no rush to judgement there.

It is much easier then you think.

Flandis did not do the hacking. In the court documents, there is a confession from a computer "consultant" that planted and activated a trojan horse program. Then someone from a remote IP address connected via the password-protected trojan horse back door. Once in Arnie looked around the lab's server, took some files and sent a few fake emails. The police investigating determined the IP address to be the same as Arnie Baker's.
Then copies of documents are sent around to the media and they show up in Landis' court case..... with some changed numbers of course.

Once again the evidence is against Landis.

hasn't that changed a tad?

The arrest warrant is for hacking. Landis and Baker supposedly paid the hacker. Arnie actually accessed the network from his house. Can you image the outcry if the French tried him "in absentia"?

A flight from San Diego to Paris cost $700 right now. I will buy him one with the thousands of airlines miles I have and he can stay with an old teammate of mine who lives in Paris. Landis has avoided France not because he poor, but because he is guilty.

Can you imagine if Tony Parker hired somebody to hack the NBA's network in order to avoid a sanction? America would go nuts. Would we call it a wichhunt?

It is very simple, it is not OK to hack a companies network. It is not OK in the US why should it be in France?

another mistake? haven't seen that one anywhere but from you.

They charged him with Hacking. It is up to Floyd to work it out, not the police.

Given that you have consistently been wrong with most of your posts I am going with the NYT on this one. The Trojan horse story has been reported before, it is not just the NYT saying this.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1964588,00.html

It may not make sense to you because you left out, or purposely ignored, much of the actual case

Quiros was caught not because of the Landis case but because of the Greenpeace case. He was caught after he was hired by a French energy company to hack Greenpeace. When he was caught the police found evidence of his involvement in the Landis case, to which he confessed.

In addition to Arnie's IP address, Quiros confessions, and the fact the Arnie used modified versions of the hacked documents in his court case they also found electronic fingerprints on LNDD documents on their server. On many of the documents the last person to view them was some guy named "Arnie"

Reality sucks crusher, but it time you faced up to it.

I do not share your confusion.

As I see the reporting the Trojan Horse was provided by Quiros and was installed with his guidance. There was evidence of the LNDD hacking on his computer when he was arrested.

There is evidence that Arnie was involved. It has been reported that Arnie's IP address is connected with a user of the Trojan horse and emails of the hacked documents. A person named Arnie was found to have looked through many of the documents on the LNDD servers. This is not surprising as I would not expect Quiros to know what to look for.

I think you would have to ask Arnie about the installation.

It has been reported that Arnie, or someone using his ip address, sent an email from the LNDD server with modified information in an effort to discredit the lab. There were language errors in the emails that pointed to them being written by a non native French speaker, something Quiros is.

Quiros has said he was paid by Kargas to hack the lab. Shortly after the hack an email was sent from the LNDD server by someone using Arnie's IP address. Hacked, and modified, documents where then used by Arnie and sent out to media using Arnie's IP address.

While all evidence in the case has not been made public it does not take a rocket scientist to see the connection between the Arnie and the hacker.

That is your translation.

The emails arrived from an LNDD email address, using a employee's email. After talking to the employee it was clear he did not send it. The disguise as I see it is someone sent an email from an LNDD employee's email account....that person was Arnie, not Norman Crépin.

Why did Arnie have to modify them if they were so important? If the documents were in fact important to the case then Landis would have an excellent case for an appeal. They were not and he did not

There is a well establish process for obtaining documents in discovery. Paying a hacker is not part of that process.

It is a valid question. So far it has been reported that Quiros has said he was paid $3,000 by Kargas to hack the lab. Shortly afterward Arnie was sending out modified copies of the hacked documents. Surely this is not a coincidence.

Quiros has also said that the clients who hired him, were "Anglo Saxon", i.e. English speaking.

The hacking case has been covered extensively, and accurately, in the European media. We have known for 4 years that Arnie's IP address was associated with the hacked documents. We know who the hacker was, how much he was paid, and what his methods were. We also know who had the most motivation to pay the hacker and who referred to the hacked documents in the court case. Of course there is more to learn but the only mis-reporting that I have seen so far was that the Trojan horse came from Arnie and the Type of arrest warrant that was issued. Both of these mistakes were corrected within hours.
There is a large amount of evidence regarding the hacking case. Arnie and Floyd are proven liars. So far all I know is that Papp sold dope to 187 customers using a website. It is enough for me to come to a conclusion about him but I can see how others might need more info.

a few example of rushing to judgement. while i personally believe that the connection that looks so obvious is there, until it all comes out, if ever, i'm not going to spout 'facts' such as these.

like i said before, it's the right thing to do.