Joe Papp pleads guilty to distributing drugs, pt 2

[flicker]

Once again I must remind you. Doping is an infection across all sports internationally. The largest promoters of doping are the Italian and Spainish governing bodies of soccer.

For all you newbies out there in the forum cycling is a sideshow sport.
Soccer is the real deal when it comes to popularity worldwide.

That is why some Puerto riders are still riding as they are under protection of soccer leagues governing bodies.

I know that Joe is a big deal to some out there but I will start listening when I see the fans go after the real evil.

 

[patricknd]

That is what I assumed: That he was probably selling to a few friends, maybe people he coached, riders from other countries who needed a connection, etc. You can never trust reports about someone using the Internet for something, so I discounted it. Someone has a facebook page and uses e-mail and they are "running a website." But operating eposino.com certainly changes the situation.

He is probably lucky he did not get stuck with a metric buttload of charges like mail fraud, wire fraud, etc. It also sheds some light on why he was willing to give a complete confesssion to the USADA and have all his results nullified along with turing on Leogrande. Dude must be desperate to appear as helpful and contrite as possible.

i'd be hard pressed to say i wouldn't do the same in his position. i went back and read some of his posts and i have to say i look at it and think that it's all pretty self serving, but hind sight does tend to cloud your vision a bit.

 

[131313]

Kayle is a smarmy little skunk of a cheat who doped like a junkie and cried like a little baby because he got busted. He is a punk, and from your statement, it appears you know him. How many other scummy friends do you have?

your reading comprehension is so poor, or your own bias so strong on this subject, that I'm not even going to waste my time with a point-by-point rebuttal.

I just have to ask, though; lots of people, I'm sure some on this forum, know KL. Does knowing someone equate to being friends with them?

You entire post was WAY off base.

 

[Anonymous]

your reading comprehension is so poor, or your own bias so strong on this subject, that I'm not even going to waste my time with a point-by-point rebuttal.

I just have to ask, though; lots of people, I'm sure some on this forum, know KL. Does knowing someone equate to being friends with them?

You entire post was WAY off base.

That or you cannot write. I mean, your last paragraph can easily be read to mean that we shouldn't ask you because you know something more, which is why I said it "appears." If you don't, then so be it. Either way, to write so much and then suggest that you are not making a judgment is disingenuous in my estimation. If you are not here to judge, why write in the first place?

 

[131313]

That or you cannot write. I mean, your last paragraph can easily be read to mean that we shouldn't ask you because you know something more, which is why I said it "appears." If you don't, then so be it. Either way, to write so much and then suggest that you are not making a judgment is disingenuous in my estimation. If you are not here to judge, why write in the first place?

my comments were not directed to slam JP; I made that clear. That's not my place. Sure, I have my own opinion but that's what it is, my opinion.

What I don't get, as I said in my post, is why people feel this is an appropriate time to laud him as an anti-doping crusader when the facts seem to suggest he's simply taken the expedient path.

Maybe I'm unable to communicate well with words, but it seems the overwhelming majority of people understood the intent of my post. Which leaves me with, well, maybe it's just you?

 

[Anonymous]

my comments were not directed to slam JP; I made that clear. That's not my place. Sure, I have my own opinion but that's what it is, my opinion.

What I don't get, as I said in my post, is why people feel this is an appropriate time to laud him as an anti-doping crusader when the facts seem to suggest he's simply taken the expedient path.

Maybe I'm unable to communicate well with words, but it seems the overwhelming majority of people understood the intent of my post. Which leaves me with, well, maybe it's just you?

What I don't get is where you read that on this thread. Nobody is lauding him in any way. They have in the past, but that was then and this is now. I think we were all a little shocked by the revelation that he was dealing during the Landis trial. However, as I have pointed out, that was 2007 and this is now. In my dealings with him, he seems like a genuine person. All that has been said in his defense is that most recently, it appears he has real contrition. Then you come in with your "why you gotta talk about Armstrong, the Kayle case shows nothing, etc." Sorry, but the tone of your post struck me as piling on, and if that is what you want to do, you are obviously free to do so. I don't have to agree with your sentiments and I don't.

 

[131313]

What I don't get is where you read that on this thread.

I referenced the specific posts that really got me. First was the moderator's request for people not to pass judgment on him. OK, that's fine. But you better not pass judgment on Jack Bobridge (who's 'on a full program') just because he had a good ride. Is there a shred of anything on Bobridge?

Second was the comment that "his moral reasoning is in the right place". I'm sorry, but as someone who does take the spirit of fair competition seriously I do take that personally, and I simply disagree.

Then the Kayle thing. It seems to me that people seem to be crediting him with taking him down, when it's just not that simple.I'm sure Race Radio can clue you in since he seems well connected.

And then, the numerous 'Lance' comments, comparing Papp's transgressions to LA's. I mean, does is ALWAYS have to come back to that? It smacks of the same line of reasoning that 'if you question The Myth, you hate cancer research', at least to me.

My intent wasn't to pile on, just to give people a reality check. I would appear that at every step, JP has taken the expedient path to benefit himself. Maybe he has changed, and he's truly contrite. Selling drugs while/after testifying against Landis seems to suggest otherwise to me, though. We obviously disagree on that point, which is fine.

 

[Race Radio]

Then the Kayle thing. It seems to me that people seem to be crediting him with taking him down, when it's just not that simple.I'm sure Race Radio can clue you in since he seems well connected.
.

Joe was just a speedbump in Kayle's case.

Kayle admitted using EPO to Suzanne Sonye and Frankie Andreu. He even asked Suzanne where he could get other dope. Of course when they reported this issue to Micheal Ball they were let go from the team.

The was a whole bunch more evidence against Kayle as well. The guy had a big mouth.

 

[MacRoadie]

Please, please do not mention Mr. Joe Papp and my Lord Voldemort in the same sentence.

There, fixed that for you.

 

[filipo]

I'm dumbfounded by most of the responses on this thread.

-'please, don't judge Poor Joe until you know the details'. huh?? Isn't this entire forum predicated on passing judgment on people, often times (though certainly not all) based on nothing BUT speculation?

There are plenty of facts surrounding Joe: he chose to cheat other competitors who competed cleanly, and he chose to sell drugs illegally for profit. That's not speculation, that's fact.

-'his heart is in the right place now, so that makes it OK'. Well, maybe it is. However, to my eye he seems to have, at every single turn, taken the expedient route. He became anti-drug after getting busted for using. He then became an outspoken critic and naming names after getting busted for selling. What am I missing here?

-'well, Joe's not as bad as Lance.' Umm... is it possible to bring up anying, like what color should I paint my bike, without bringing up Lance?

-'the people who badmouth Joe are just Lance-Loving Omerta enforcers'. Well, I'm sure it's convenient for the outspoken rebel, Joe Papp, for people to feel that way. It's utter bull shyte

I'm not here to pass judgment on JP. That's the job of the sport's sanctioning body and the criminal justice system. He's probably going to end up doing some time, and from what is known right now that certainly seems reasonable.

However, to laud him as some sort of anti-drug hero and to claim 'his heart is in the right place' now is downright offensive to anyone who actually does believe in clean, fair competition, and to those athletes who've taken a stand with their governing bodies and their team management, often to their own detriment, but do so out of the limelight because they're trying to help foster some actual change versus getting more hits to their blog page so they can market themselves. And I'm not just talking about myself. There are several riders who have taken a proactive stand within the sport, and I can tell you that it's not a popular thing to do.

Lastly, he seems to be hanging his hat on the Kayle thing. All I can say is that he is far from being solely responsible for KL getting suspended, even if he had a very small part. That's all I'm going to say on that subject, so don't bother asking. His comments about the KL situation are completely self-serving though, and certainly make his motives clear to me.

Word +1,000

 

[Mambo95]

131313 has posted the best summary of this so far as I'm concerned.

As far as I can see, the 'cult' of this forum is that everyone is doping and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot, 'head in the sand'. Disenters are dimissed as trolls who should be banned.

Apparently there's an 'Omerta', despite everyone thinking that cycling is associated with with doping - no exceptions. Joe Papp is apparently a brave forum hero because he admitted it, even posted it. He said what he had done, what you wanted to hear, but never what others had done. He only admitted what he had to.

Most of you have cast accusations about riders with no evidence - often just a good performance will do. You claim to have inside knowledge of the peleton - blackcat is most notable here, he once PMed me with vague credetials. But yet, despite you mostly being from the US, you failed to notice the Avon Barksdale of American cycling.

It turns out that the 'experts' know nothing. Their hero has turned out to be worse than any doper, yet they use the same arguements that the LA fanboys use (incidentaly, I think he doped). "Maybe he was working for the Feds", "Lets wait for proper evidence" - the same nonsense as the LA fans come up with.

Hardcore agologists will point to JP's blogs, posts and talks to show that he's a reformed caracter, But didn't LA give 500K to doping research?

Those who (wrongly) defend LA, use exactly the same tactics as those who defend Joe4 Papp.

What you all have to realise is that you're just morons on the internet (just as I am). Joe Papp shows that none of you no anything. The likes of blackcat and brodeal may love cycling, but their 'insider' revelations are just a joke.

In summary, some of you, who claim to have contacts have been shown to be frauds. And your hero, Joe Papp, is worse than Landis, Ricco, Basso and all the others you condemn - because he's a drug dealer.

Ultimately, this has exposed most of you as a joke.

 

[BroDeal]

Joe Papp shows that none of you no anything.

This statement is hilarious. Perhaps you should finish your GED before lecturing people about what they "no" and don't "no."

The likes of blackcat and brodeal may love cycling, but their 'insider' revelations are just a joke.

Kindly provide a link to my "insider revelations." Since your whole post is a series of strawmen constructed out of figments from your imagination I doubt you will be able to.

 

[Ferminal]

This statement is hilarious. Perhaps you should finish your GED before lecturing people about what they "no" and don't "no."



Kindly provide a link to my "insider revelations." Since your whole post is a series of strawmen constructed out of figments from your imagination I doubt you will be able to.

Y'no... you no nothing.

 

[BroDeal]

Y'no... you no nothing.

I no nothing.

 

[Race Radio]

131313 has posted the best summary of this so far as I'm concerned.

As far as I can see, the 'cult' of this forum is that everyone is doping and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot, 'head in the sand'. Disenters are dimissed as trolls who should be banned.

Apparently there's an 'Omerta', despite everyone thinking that cycling is associated with with doping - no exceptions. Joe Papp is apparently a brave forum hero because he admitted it, even posted it. He said what he had done, what you wanted to hear, but never what others had done. He only admitted what he had to.

Most of you have cast accusations about riders with no evidence - often just a good performance will do. You claim to have inside knowledge of the peleton - blackcat is most notable here, he once PMed me with vague credetials. But yet, despite you mostly being from the US, you failed to notice the Avon Barksdale of American cycling.

It turns out that the 'experts' know nothing. Their hero has turned out to be worse than any doper, yet they use the same arguements that the LA fanboys use (incidentaly, I think he doped). "Maybe he was working for the Feds", "Lets wait for proper evidence" - the same nonsense as the LA fans come up with.

Hardcore agologists will point to JP's blogs, posts and talks to show that he's a reformed caracter, But didn't LA give 500K to doping research?

Those who (wrongly) defend LA, use exactly the same tactics as those who defend Joe4 Papp.

What you all have to realise is that you're just morons on the internet (just as I am). Joe Papp shows that none of you no anything. The likes of blackcat and brodeal may love cycling, but their 'insider' revelations are just a joke.

In summary, some of you, who claim to have contacts have been shown to be frauds. And your hero, Joe Papp, is worse than Landis, Ricco, Basso and all the others you condemn - because he's a drug dealer.

Ultimately, this has exposed most of you as a joke.

Yup, everyone is a moron but you.

The reality is the only info we have is a short press release with questionable dates. Even a moron can see the difference between the Papp press release and the multiple BOOKs written about Armstrong.

I am not sticking up for Papp. As I have said that website he ran was disgusting.....but there is much more to this story. Beyond clearing up the timeline question, the sentencing question, expect some customer names to be coming out. Kayle was not his only customer. Some people are sweating right now.

 

[mitchman]

I know something JP is a rat and a lier......and no you can't get any lower then that.

A lier I can handle, but someone who rats out another to save his own skin is another level....

 

[Ferminal]

li·er
   /ˈlaɪər/ Show Spelled[lahy-er] Show IPA
–noun
a person or thing that lies, as in wait or in ambush.

I can honestly say that's the first time I've seen that word used

 

[BroDeal]

I know something JP is a rat and a lier......and no you can't get any lower then that.

A lier I can handle, but someone who rats out another to save his own skin is another level....

Been watching a bit too much Sopranos? The reason why omerta is alive and well is asshats like this.

 

[blackcat]

I referenced the specific posts that really got me. First was the moderator's request for people not to pass judgment on him. OK, that's fine. But you better not pass judgment on Jack Bobridge (who's 'on a full program') just because he had a good ride. Is there a shred of anything on Bobridge?

Second was the comment that "his moral reasoning is in the right place". I'm sorry, but as someone who does take the spirit of fair competition seriously I do take that personally, and I simply disagree.

Then the Kayle thing. It seems to me that people seem to be crediting him with taking him down, when it's just not that simple.I'm sure Race Radio can clue you in since he seems well connected.

And then, the numerous 'Lance' comments, comparing Papp's transgressions to LA's. I mean, does is ALWAYS have to come back to that? It smacks of the same line of reasoning that 'if you question The Myth, you hate cancer research', at least to me.

My intent wasn't to pile on, just to give people a reality check. I would appear that at every step, JP has taken the expedient path to benefit himself. Maybe he has changed, and he's truly contrite. Selling drugs while/after testifying against Landis seems to suggest otherwise to me, though. We obviously disagree on that point, which is fine.

When did TFF say anything about Bobridge. Only guy was BigBoat. Great, great ride, but the track is pretty weak in depth, and Phinney and Thomas are much quicker.

 

[pedaling squares]

I'm dumbfounded by most of the responses on this thread.

-'please, don't judge Poor Joe until you know the details'. huh?? Isn't this entire forum predicated on passing judgment on people, often times (though certainly not all) based on nothing BUT speculation?

You've made some good points. I am one of the people who support withholding judgement until we know the facts. That is not to suggest I am not against Joe's actions, most especially distributing PED's via the internet. However, we might learn something in the Judge's comments at sentencing, and we might learn something from Joe himself when the court matter has ended. It strikes me that we are potentially very close to learning more about this matter and it would be wise, and fair, to wait until we do.

You are right, we should show the same attitude towards others whom we condemn when facts established in court are not available to us.

 

[flicker]

As the evening goes on the spelling de-grades and the putdowns upgrade.

I only have one question, is it the beer, the tiredness or the quality of "Mr. Chens'" dope that is degrading this forum?

 

[Ferminal]

As the evening goes on the spelling de-grades and the putdowns upgrade.

I only have one question, is it the beer, the tiredness or the quality of "Mr. Chens'" dope that is degrading this forum?

It's a lot worse without the beer... You should try it sober, I don't think you'd last.

 

[flicker]

February19 2010,

The night of the Papp smear beer-bong festival.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Let me ask you this Mambo95 - What would you have Joe do? He started his career clean and when couldn't keep up with other riders, doped along with everyone else in probably the dirtiest, most doped up sport there is. He was on at least one team with a systematic doping program in place, probably more than one. He sold EPO and PEDs to others, but certainly wasn't the only one to do so. He was caught, admitted his guilt - probably more than any other cyclist ever caught for doping, assisted USADA in what he could to catch at least one other cheat, is cooperating with federal prosecutors, and is likely going to go to prison.

What would you have him do at this point?

 

[Ferminal]

Let me ask you this Mambo95 - What would you have Joe do? He started his career clean and when couldn't keep up with other riders, doped along with everyone else in probably the dirtiest, most doped up sport there is. He was on at least one team with a systematic doping program in place, probably more than one. He sold EPO and PEDs to others, but certainly wasn't the only one to do so. He was caught, admitted his guilt - probably more than any other cyclist ever caught for doping, assisted USADA in what he could to catch at least one other cheat, is cooperating with federal prosecutors, and is likely going to go to prison.

What would you have him do at this point?

What can he do? People will say he's had enough decisions to make up to this point so it's his responsibility for what he's done etc (no doubt Joe is the first one to admit this). This case seems so polarising, there's nothing he can say or do which will change people's minds one way or the other.

Joe could come and post in this thread to try and explain things, but why would he do that just to be greeted by "bull****" "rot in jail" "cheater" etc. On the other hand, the longer the silence, the more people are going to be sure that he's done everything they've convicted him of.

His situation seems dire.