Joe Papp pleads guilty to distributing drugs, pt 2

[flicker]

I would not be so admanant and belligerent but by testifying against Landis and then having the gumption to post on an anti-doping forum Papp has sullied the case against Landis and made the anti doping controls look ridiculous.

Could Papp and Landis lawyers be in cahoots?

 

[Race Radio]

Papp has sullied the case against Landis and made the anti doping controls look ridiculous.

Could Papp and Landis lawyers be in cahoots?

How has Papp sullied the case against Landis? The Flandis statement that Testosterone did not help bike racers was ***. We did not need Joe Papp to tell us that.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Ah the irony.
The biggest defenders of Omerta's Mr Big, go rabid over Little Joe P.
Hope he's not got any Italian blood, as well.

Doping, is like terrorism, in that it functions on the "cell" principle.
Joe ran his, it seems.

It doesn't mean that he hasn't been genuine in his contrition, as others seem to assume.
I agree with those who say wait for all the facts, before rushing to condemn him, if not for his past, certainly, for his "new leaf".

 

[blackcat]

Ah the irony.
The biggest defenders of Omerta's Mr Big, go rabid over Little Joe P.
Hope he's not got any Italian blood, as well.

Doping, is like terrorism, in that it functions on the "cell" principle.
Joe ran his, it seems.

It doesn't mean that he hasn't been genuine in his contrition, as others seem to assume.
I agree with those who say wait for all the facts, before rushing to condemn him, if not for his past, certainly, for his "new leaf".

especially when StrongArm was an owner of USPS/Disco/Shack, and they run systematic dope programs.

So, effectively, the gear StrongArm doles out, is a truckload, and prolly more than JP.

Head up JP.

 

[ElChingon]

Well I hope Joe uses this to truly go the right way and releases all information not only to the DA but the public for all to see not only the riders he sold to but WHERE he got the stuff from in the first place. True disclosure will help truly fight the doping game.

If not then it will just be another headline filler till the Classics begin.

Unmask the men behind the curtain JOE!

 

[IntheMidwest]

Maybe Joe cut a deal with the Feds and/or USADA to not get any jail time and this whole thing is more less more publicity on why juniors or cat1/2/3 or masters should stay away from the gear. The 187 people on the client list seems abit odd as well....

Now, What I don't understand is why he did what he did to Kayle Leogrande and didn't try to get a deal out of the whole thing....or did he?

 

[pedaling squares]

I agree with those who say wait for all the facts, before rushing to condemn him...

That is a sentiment worth repeating.

 

[hektoren]

Ah the irony.
The biggest defenders of Omerta's Mr Big, go rabid over Little Joe P.
Hope he's not got any Italian blood, as well.

Doping, is like terrorism, in that it functions on the "cell" principle.
Joe ran his, it seems.

It doesn't mean that he hasn't been genuine in his contrition, as others seem to assume.
I agree with those who say wait for all the facts, before rushing to condemn him, if not for his past, certainly, for his "new leaf".

I don't "assume" that he hasn't been genuine in his contrition. I'm just a bit concerned that JP can get away with talking about events and places "way, way back when", when, in reality, we're talking about 2007! What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But this stinks to high heaven!
Even after giving evidence in the Landis case! Unless his continued dealing was part of a sting-operation coordinated by WADA et al, I would, if I were to have an iota of personal integrity left as a journalist working for cyclingnews, have more than a few questions to ask before I settled for the mouthpiece-role so evident in cyclingnews' handling of today's news. "In a distant time and place", my a**!"

 

[Oldman]

From the interviews I read with Joe it seemed like he aspired to living large and an extra $80,000 a year tax-free is a good start. EPO is dangerous stuff. It's not like selling weed. You can still find it online but getting it from a domestic source means you won't get questions about suspicious packages coming from China. Looks like Joe took on that burden and got burned. Seriously Joe, from now on don't worry about big-timing or getting your name out there. Just live a healthy, normal life.[/QUOTE]

Yes. I appreciate the information you've passed on. Hopefully your customers will start to do the same.

 

[Anonymous]

There are so many High Horse comments posted in regards to Mr. Papp. In the end we are posting on a message board and the amount of information on this is thin in my opinion.

I have not quoted it but in a few posts previous someone alluded to him making money off doping in order to eat and not trying to get a real job. (I generalized a bit)
I KNOW for a FACT Joe tried to get a legit job because he contacted me directly regarding a position at the company I work for. He sent his resume and we exchanged emails. The Job did not come but I do know he was out beating the streets to get a job. So like I said, you can sit on the High Horse all you want but until we know or will ever know all the facts we are just left with some independent opinions.

I wish Joe Papp well and will not judge him.

I was the one who made that comment...according to the outside mag profile and interview done on him, Joe was: "low on cash, Papp was tortured over the prospect of having to work a mind-numbing job to stay afloat."...this during the period while he was doing this, or just after...

So I don't think it is an entirely mean hearted or bizarrely irrational comment...I myself and the majority of folks out here have never made 80 grand selling drugs while not working.

That said, let the guy come clean, deal with his punishment, and friggin move on with his life. I think he got twisted up in something way bigger than himself and now has to pay the piper...then live his life without any of the crap we are hearing on here about saying hello to bubba in jail or any of that trash...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Again, can't speak for him (haven't talked to him in a while, in case you're curious), but I think by saying "I can't talk about it" applies to the public at large. I really doubt, especially considering the Leogrande affair, Joe has said those same words to USADA and legal authorities. It wouldn't be very prudent if he told us, even me, everything he's telling them, would it?

It's my speculation that it was Kayle who came to Joe for PEDs, and Joe didn't trust him, and at some point they had a falling out. Joe doesn't talk about it, at least not to me. So this is my interpretation of minimal facts. But I do know that others who have met Kayle have not exactly heaped praise on the guy as a person. I think that includes a few people on this site who have met him.

Again, I suggest that people be patient and wait for more information to come out. It may take a while, but it will, and I think there will be a lot more to it than this, answering a lot of questions.

Flicker - It's not my position as a mod, or human being, to come down on people directly, but sometimes you post the stupidest things. I suggest you read up a little more, and don't move into any glass houses.

 

[Oldman]

I was the one who made that comment...according to the outside mag profile and interview done on him, Joe was: "low on cash, Papp was tortured over the prospect of having to work a mind-numbing job to stay afloat."...this during the period while he was doing this, or just after...

So I don't think it is an entirely mean hearted or bizarrely irrational comment...I myself and the majority of folks out here have never made 80 grand selling drugs while not working.

That said, let the guy come clean, deal with his punishment, and friggin move on with his life. I think he got twisted up in something way bigger than himself and now has to pay the piper...then live his life without any of the crap we are hearing on here about saying hello to bubba in jail or any of that trash...

I'm hoping he doesn't sell out anyone else to save himself. Even a dealer has to have a code.

 

[Anonymous]

I suppose it's time to say something, as I believe I'm the only person here who actually knows Joe, (other than perhaps John or Laura). I can't speak for him, at all, but I can give my own words.

Where to begin?

Before passing judgment, I suggest, request, you be patient, and keep your eyes open in the time to come to see how this transgresses, what else is revealed, before just throwing him to the lions.

Joe Lindsay gets most of it right, but many of you are missing some key elements. First, you all should have done your homework here and known that it's been well publicized that ending around July, 2007 Joe sold Kayle Leogrande EPO for $500, and turned this evidence over to USADA (including photos). When the cards are all laid out I'm confident it will be shown he did more than that after this point in time to combat doping, and honestly was trying to put his dark past behind him. If you have followed his blogs and posts, I think you'll agree.

I can't defend Joe's selling PED's to other athletes, ever, regardless of when, or whatever the reason. I don't believe he would try to defend himself from do so, admits it was very wrong, and has to regret the whole mess.

The Andrew Tilin article in Outside Magazine is about 40% fiction. And no, not just the doping stuff. Much of that is true, sadly. But Joe doesn't have AK-47's in his house, and isn't a preening goody-goody with cologne on his nightstand or any of that nonsense. Tilin told the story he wanted to tell, and knew would sell.

Joe isn't rich. Not even close. That's completely laughable. But no, he doesn't need to sell drugs to earn a living. He's plenty intelligent, graduating summa cum laude from University of Pittsburgh, and was (at least until recently) working on his Master's degree.

The person he is, is the same guy that's posted on here, and posted on his blog and site. That Joe Papp, is Joe Papp. Yes this chapter of his difficult life sucks, but go back and read his posts, his writings over the last year. That is the real Joe.

Thanks Alpe. I have to admit that I feel a bit strange having defended him so fervently on this forum. My sense in dealing with him is that he is a good person who did some bad things. The part that sticks me a bit is that he was dealing during the Landis trial. However, as I have stated before, the culture of doping in cycling appears similar to the culture of recreational doping, and the lines the government draws are literal lines that could be explained very easily. The fact that there is no evidence he did so after September 2007 seems to be lost on people also. I guess if he didn't quit when we deemed he should, quitting later doesn't count? I have never met him personally, but have had correspondence with him outside of this forum. I have judged people wrong in the past, and trusted when I shouldn't have, but my gut tells me that is not the case here. I still stand by the fact that I believe he did turn over a new leaf, and I commend him for that still.

 

[IntheMidwest]

Looking at it from another persepective, Joe made alot of money in that time frame. EPO isn't exactly as expensive and exclusive as it used to be, especially coming from China. HGH on the other hand, I don't know, it might have a larger price tag. So playing on the $80k of earnings from Joe's side business, it would appear that he just wasn't supplying a few racers here and there. I know their was a list of 187 clients, but it sounds like the dude sold a ton of dope, which just isn't cool. Especially if he was selling to juniors.

[Unless the $80k and/or 187 people is media hype]

 

[Oncearunner8]

Again, can't speak for him (haven't talked to him in a while, in case you're curious), but I think by saying "I can't talk about it" applies to the public at large. I really doubt, especially considering the Leogrande affair, Joe has said those same words to USADA and legal authorities. It wouldn't be very prudent if he told us, even me, everything he's telling them, would it?

It's my speculation that it was Kayle who came to Joe for PEDs, and Joe didn't trust him, and at some point they had a falling out. Joe doesn't talk about it, at least not to me. So this is my interpretation of minimal facts. But I do know that others who have met Kayle have not exactly heaped praise on the guy as a person. I think that includes a few people on this site who have met him.

Again, I suggest that people be patient and wait for more information to come out. It may take a while, but it will, and I think there will be a lot more to it than this, answering a lot of questions.

Flicker - It's not my position as a mod, or human being, to come down on people directly, but sometimes you post the stupidest things. I suggest you read up a little more, and don't move into any glass houses.

I can not believe I am going to agree with a moderator of any type but,,,,here it goes,,,,, I totally think you post is on the money.

I wanted to add in my post about glass houses etc.. since you done it … thanks

 

[Oncearunner8]

Looking at it from another persepective, Joe made alot of money in that time frame. EPO isn't exactly as expensive and exclusive as it used to be, especially coming from China. HGH on the other hand, I don't know, it might have a larger price tag. So playing on the $80k of earnings from Joe's side business, it would appear that he just wasn't supplying a few racers here and there. I know their was a list of 187 clients, but it sounds like the dude sold a ton of dope, which just isn't cool. Especially if he was selling to juniors.

[Unless the $80k and/or 187 people is media hype]

Wait till the snow thaws. You may have a different opinion if more facts are available.

 

[patricknd]

Looking at it from another persepective, Joe made alot of money in that time frame. EPO isn't exactly as expensive and exclusive as it used to be, especially coming from China. HGH on the other hand, I don't know, it might have a larger price tag. So playing on the $80k of earnings from Joe's side business, it would appear that he just wasn't supplying a few racers here and there. I know their was a list of 187 clients, but it sounds like the dude sold a ton of dope, which just isn't cool. Especially if he was selling to juniors.

[Unless the $80k and/or 187 people is media hype]

the numbers being reported (if accurate) are probably what his plea covered. unfortunately the whole truth won't ever be known, and i don't expect him to make that known, nor would i be inclined to believe what he said without question. i don't find him to be more worthy of scorn than others, but i think that too many are ready to accept his 'contrition' simply because of who he isn't. the fact is he was a part of the problem, both as a user and a facilitator, and if the figures are accurate, he did pretty well for himself.
like most people here, i'd like to believe in his sincerity. but i have to say, i wouldn't buy a used car from the guy.

 

[BigBoat]

This is interesting, but more funny than angry. lol

There are a thousand more where he came from, that will speak out against doping as they dope. The riders do this constantly throughout the whole season, every year. With so many riders doing that, how can you blame Papp for attempting to do the right thing by speaking of doping as cheating...

Its like looking at internet porn guys>> Everybody agrees that looking at porn while at work is wrong, but how many do it? LOTS!!

 

[The Crusher]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=2875632

According to his testimony, he was cooperating with federal lawyers and the U.S. district attorney in May when he accepted his two-year ban from USADA and testified against Floyd. We can't discount the possibility that any dealing he did subsequently was with the knowledge of the feds. In that case, any plea bargain he reached would certainly acknowledge any drug dealing he did in cooperation with authorities.

On the other hand we also can't discount the possibility that he was working with authorities, and yet still dealing on the side without telling them.

Also, one could argue, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that this new information doesn't hurt his Floyd testimony at all, as he was testifying as an expert in doping, and this just improves his expert credentials. But as long as I'm doing devil's advocate with everything, one might also say that his testimony was tainted because of the promotional affect his testimony might have on his side business.

 

[MacRoadie]

On the other hand we also can't di... refused to say if that was the case.[/quote]

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

... I have to admit that I feel a bit strange having defended him so fervently on this forum. My sense in dealing with him is that he is a good person who did some bad things. The part that sticks me a bit is that he was dealing during the Landis trial...The fact that there is no evidence he did so after September 2007 seems to be lost on people also. I guess if he didn't quit when we deemed he should, quitting later doesn't count? I have judged people wrong in the past, and trusted when I shouldn't have, but my gut tells me that is not the case here. I still stand by the fact that I believe he did turn over a new leaf, and I commend him for that still.

That's about where I'm at too. Also, in my experience, there's a greater chance of judging someone wrongly if I assume the worst, not the best.

 

[BigBoat]

Papp should be allowed to come back on here and speak his mind when the time comes, maybe along time from now.

His moral reasoning is in the right place guys.

 

[flicker]

Sorry I said anything. Whenever I read numbers from someone who has been suspended on this forum I become perturbed.

I also become perturbed when I read internet drug dealing and hacking.

Joe P. may be a sweet man and Floyd may have come from an upstanding Mennonite family, but as a Father of 10 and 11 year old sons who are athletic and are beginning to use the internet I am protective.

Sorry to Alpe and anyone else in this forum I have offended. I am off my white pony now.

 

[BroDeal]

According to his testimony, he was cooperating with federal lawyers and the U.S. district attorney in May when he accepted his two-year ban from USADA and testified against Floyd. We can't discount the possibility that any dealing he did subsequently was with the knowledge of the feds. In that case, any plea bargain he reached would certainly acknowledge any drug dealing he did in cooperation with authorities.

And this is why I don't understand how he could continue to deal. That would be crazy risky.

If he wsa working for the feds after May then why would his plea include the time frame afterward?

 

[hektoren]

Papp should be allowed to come back on here and speak his mind when the time comes, maybe along time from now.

His moral reasoning is in the right place guys.

Maybe. But 2007 is not a distant time or space. Not "way back" when.
I really want to believe in JP. I do. I'm as thoroughly disgusted by all things Lance, Ferrari, Landis, Kohler, Basso, Valverde, Mühlegg, etc. etc. ad nauseam as the next guy, but I'm not prepared to swallow newsspeak, redefining the very meaning of words in a vocabulary that's pretty much bog standard.
JP, by his own admission, continued to sell PED's throughout big chunks of 2007, but yet, his words about this telling us it's about real "ancient history", as propagated by staff writers of CN, somehow doesn't quite ring true.