Johann bruyneel as a DS.

[bianchigirl]

Any Classics wins? If we're holding Bruyneel responsible for the performance of other DSes then Demol - and by extension the Hog - has been a dismal failure - how many attempts does it take not to win P-R? Now look at Guimard's palmares - a truly great DS can win on any terrain with any rider.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

The argument could be made that in his 10 tour appearances, Bruyneel didn't have the favored rider twice.

2006... where his team did not win. 2007... where they did (Leipheimer had the 6th best betting odds going into the race, Contador 12th).

It could be 3 times... I have no idea who was favored in 1999 (though clearly Lance was every year in his streak after that).

Again... I don't know how you judge this sort of thing. I enjoy watching cycling but by no means am I qualified to rate the performance of a DS for a cycling team. But I'd think results in the race the team is focusing their entire year around would count for something. Winning that race nine times in ten attempts... even with the favored rider... seems like about as good results as anyone could possibly expect.

In 2000 he actually wasn't the favorite. After he won in 99, many people were saying he took advantage of Jan Ulrich's and Marco Pantani's absence, so going into the 2000 race, many were considering those the two favorites. It wasn't until 2001 that people really started to take him seriously. Even then he still had a detractors.

I agree Bruyneel is somewhat overrated as DS, considering there are numerous others that are extremely successful and don't have riders with the star power as LA, but you have to give the guy some credit.

 

[kurtinsc]

Any Classics wins? If we're holding Bruyneel responsible for the performance of other DSes then Demol - and by extension the Hog - has been a dismal failure - how many attempts does it take not to win P-R? Now look at Guimard's palmares - a truly great DS can win on any terrain with any rider.

He doesn't have a lot of classincs wins. His teams have won Gent-Wevelgem twice and Ouest France-Plouay once. Not a huge, list of wins. They've gotten Podiums at most of the major classics.

Guimard ranks above Bruyneel as a team manager... I wouldn't argue that. But there's not a huge gap. Bruyneel's team have won 13 GT's in his first 11 years as a team manager. Guimard won 11 in his first 11 years as a team manager. Guimard makes up for that gap with classics wins... but for the same period of time Guimard's lead is not huge.

 

[Race Radio]

He doesn't have a lot of classincs wins. His teams have won Gent-Wevelgem twice and Ouest France-Plouay once. Not a huge, list of wins. They've gotten Podiums at most of the major classics.

Guimard ranks above Bruyneel as a team manager... I wouldn't argue that. But there's not a huge gap. Bruyneel's team have won 13 GT's in his first 11 years as a team manager. Guimard won 11 in his first 11 years as a team manager. Guimard makes up for that gap with classics wins... but for the same period of time Guimard's lead is not huge.

This may come as a surprise to you, and others that are new to the sport, but the sport is so much more then just Grand Tours. Most of us get far more excited in March-April then in July.

The Classic's are the true measure of tactics. The Hog is a failure in the classics.

 

[ak-zaaf]

This may come as a surprise to you, and others that are new to the sport, but the sport is so much more then just Grand Tours. Most of us get far more excited in March-April then in July.

The Classic's are the true measure of tactics. The Hog is a failure in the classics.

Totally agree.

I didn't read all of this thread, but it seems Guimard and Bruyneel are being compared (WHY!?)

From the ratings of cyclingranking.com (I believe that you can't measure riders in a ranking, but it makes sense for DS)

Directeur Sportif Points
1 Guillaume Driessens (BEL) 158649
2 Antonin Magne (FRA) 110115
3 Peter Post (NED) 100525
4 Maurice de Muer (FRA) 91520
5 Gaston Plaud (FRA) 80101
6 Briek Schotte (BEL) 78444
7 Manolo Saiz (ESP) 73667
8 Cyrille Guimard (FRA) * 72992
...........
30 Johan Bruyneel (BEL) 45862


Bruyneel has a few years ahead of him, but with his current squad I don't see him winning any big races.
Bruyneel struck lucky with two exceptional talents. That's it, nothing more to it.

 

[kurtinsc]

Totally agree.

I didn't read all of this thread, but it seems Guimard and Bruyneel are being compared (WHY!?)

From the ratings of cyclingranking.com (I believe that you can't measure riders in a ranking, but it makes sense for DS)

Directeur Sportif Points
1 Guillaume Driessens (BEL) 158649
2 Antonin Magne (FRA) 110115
3 Peter Post (NED) 100525
4 Maurice de Muer (FRA) 91520
5 Gaston Plaud (FRA) 80101
6 Briek Schotte (BEL) 78444
7 Manolo Saiz (ESP) 73667
8 Cyrille Guimard (FRA) * 72992
...........
30 Johan Bruyneel (BEL) 45862


Bruyneel has a few years ahead of him, but with his current squad I don't see him winning any big races.
Bruyneel struck lucky with two exceptional talents. That's it, nothing more to it.

The whole point system thing I've seen for both riders and managers seems a little off to me. Maybe it's because I'm in the US and we're so focused on the Tour as the "superbowl" of cycling.

But it seems like say... Sastre in 2008... was probably considered having one of the top 5 seasons that year. Won the tour, 3rd in the Vuelta, and all of one stage win in either race... and not much else. Yet I don't think anyone would say he wasn't in the top 5 riders that year.

Yet in a "point" system... he'd be way down the list, below a rider like Tom Boonen who won Qatar, Roubaix, and a bunch of stages in other races (though only 2 in GT's).

I may be wrong, and I understand Paris-Roubaix is a big race... but that just seems stupid to me. Using a similar ranking to award points to a team manager seems equally stupid. Points rankngs make little sense. Like a professional baseball pitcher once said... "One 20-win season is worth five 15-win seasons".

One TDF win is worth a lot more then most of the other things that can be added up to equal the same number of "points" in these rankings.

 

[Race Radio]

.

I may be wrong

You are wrong

 

[Polish]

Well Balanced Team

And your point is? Oh I forgot you never really have one, or are you saying that he is the worlds best DS because he can speak several languages? Ok so he is better that Brailsford then, he seems to have a problem with those latin speakers.

My point, Mr Anuss, is that Maestro Bruyneel has put together a well-balanced TEAM.

Turns out Johan speaks 6 languages fluently, and is
working on #7...Japanese!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmJ-VWPDM4

Picture by CV/Pez

 

[Hugh Januss]

My point, Mr Anuss, is that Maestro Bruyneel has put together a well-balanced TEAM.

Turns out Johan speaks 6 languages fluently, and is
working on #7...Japanese!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmJ-VWPDM4

Picture by CV/Pez

Turns out however that he doesn't know what the words "already has a contract for next year" means in any language.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Originally Posted by kurtinsc
.

I may be wrong

You are wrong

Awesome that you guys agree.
Further, can't we all just agree that Bruyneel is the winningest GT team director of the past 10 years, and leave it at that. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[kurtinsc]

You are wrong

Okay then.

Can you guys tell me who amongst the pro-tour team managers IS good?

I've come to the conclusion that all the team managers for every pro-tour team have sucked the last 11 years.

I don't think any of them have results equal or better to Bruyneel since 1999. So while I accept the expert opinion of everyone else that he's not good at his job... I have to then conclude that nobody else is very good either right now.

I would have said Stapleton is good, but apparently since all his teams have won is MSR once, Gent-Wevelgem once, and one GT points title... he REALLY sucks.

 

[Polish]

Okay then.

Can you guys tell me who amongst the pro-tour team managers IS good?

...Stapleton is good.

Yes Stapleton IS good, but he is a TEAM BOSS like Bruyneel. They hire and motivate the Tacticians/DS's that work for the Team.

Although, Bruyneel has actually ridden as a Pro and knows tactics...
Stapleton would not recognize a tactic even if it bit him in the ****

 

[jpmcmahonjr]

Okay then.

Can you guys tell me who amongst the pro-tour team managers IS good?

I've come to the conclusion that all the team managers for every pro-tour team have sucked the last 11 years.

I don't think any of them have results equal or better to Bruyneel since 1999. So while I accept the expert opinion of everyone else that he's not good at his job... I have to then conclude that nobody else is very good either right now.

I would have said Stapleton is good, but apparently since all his teams have won is MSR once, Gent-Wevelgem once, and one GT points title... he REALLY sucks.

Very interesting question. But, the thing you fail to realize or understand is that if anything or anyone is associated with the following:

Lance, Johan, USPS, Discovery, RadioShack, Trek, Nike, Livestrong, etc. The list goes on and on, but I think this gives you a hint.

They are corrupt, weak, fakes and total scum of the earth and worthy of no respect and admiration. And, if you by any means support them you are attacked continually by the e-mob on CN forums. Which I am starting to wonder if it is actually like 5 people at the most just posting under different names. LOL.

Let the attacks continue e-mob. The show is grand and laughable.

Oh and to answer your question everybody else is great and without question. Just continue to follow the flow of the board. You will get the true hang of it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What do people think of Johann Bruyneel as a DS I keep hearing people talk about his tactical genius, but I don't see it. Where is the evidence?

180 posts in and still nothing to answer the OP question.

I have seen very little to suggest he is a 'tactical genius' - now that does not mean he is a 'bad' DS just there is nothing extraordinary as a tactician.

BUT - I think I might be the first poster to put something in favor of JB.

Stage 12 of the Vuelta in 2003 - A flat stage that should suit the sprinters however USPS realize it will be a wind exposed stage and rode en masse with 50k to go splitting the field. This puts a minute in to some other GC contenders on what should have been a 'transitional stage'.

I have read earlier that JB was not the DS for that Vuelta - my memory of that race is that he was and this cyclingnews report appears to back up that - however if someone has better info I would appreciate a clarification.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Very interesting question. But, the thing you fail to realize or understand is that if anything or anyone is associated with the following:

Lance, Johan, USPS, Discovery, RadioShack, Trek, Nike, Livestrong, etc. The list goes on and on, but I think this gives you a hint.

They are corrupt, weak, fakes and total scum of the earth and worthy of no respect and admiration. And, if you by any means support them you are attacked continually by the e-mob on CN forums. Which I am starting to wonder if it is actually like 5 people at the most just posting under different names. LOL.

Let the attacks continue e-mob. The show is grand and laughable.

Oh and to answer your question everybody else is great and without question. Just continue to follow the flow of the board. You will get the true hang of it.

I see you are now up to 78 total posts now. All saying exactly the same thing no matter what the thread. I think you have even used the "e-mob" term in all but about 3 of them. You need to get you some new material your dying up there.

 

[Polish]

180 posts in and still nothing to answer the OP question..

Well, the OP question was a bit off to begin with for a couple of reasons...

First, Race Day Tactical Issues are not a major part of Johan's job.

Second, tactics by non-rider management are not visible to the average forum poster. What forum posters have access to pre-ride meetings and race radio discussions during a race? Sometimes they leak out - like when Mapei management "fixed" the finishing order in that Paris-Roubaix....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well, the OP question was a bit off to begin with for a couple of reasons...

First, Race Day Tactical Issues are not a major part of Johan's job.

Second, tactics by non-rider management are not visible to the average forum poster. What forum posters have access to pre-ride meetings and race radio discussions during a race? Sometimes they leak out - like when Mapei management "fixed" the finishing order in that Paris-Roubaix....

The OP's question was very valid actually - as it asked the question where does JB get the reputation of being a 'tactical genius'.

So the next time I hear that said I will say "no, he is not" and use your second paragraph as the reason - thanks.

 

[Race Radio]

180 posts in and still nothing to answer the OP question.

I have seen very little to suggest he is a 'tactical genius' - now that does not mean he is a 'bad' DS just there is nothing extraordinary as a tactician.

BUT - I think I might be the first poster to put something in favor of JB.

Stage 12 of the Vuelta in 2003 - A flat stage that should suit the sprinters however USPS realize it will be a wind exposed stage and rode en masse with 50k to go splitting the field. This puts a minute in to some other GC contenders on what should have been a 'transitional stage'.

I have read earlier that JB was not the DS for that Vuelta - my memory of that race is that he was and this cyclingnews report appears to back up that - however if someone has better info I would appreciate a clarification.

To be fair, putting a bunch of skinny Spanish climbers in the gutter is not that hard.

 

[Race Radio]

Okay then.

Can you guys tell me who amongst the pro-tour team managers IS good?

I've come to the conclusion that all the team managers for every pro-tour team have sucked the last 11 years.

I don't think any of them have results equal or better to Bruyneel since 1999. So while I accept the expert opinion of everyone else that he's not good at his job... I have to then conclude that nobody else is very good either right now.

I would have said Stapleton is good, but apparently since all his teams have won is MSR once, Gent-Wevelgem once, and one GT points title... he REALLY sucks.

Stapleton is not a DS

I would put Saiz above The Hog over the last 11 years. If you are talking about Team managers then Lefevre would be higher.

 

[jpmcmahonjr]

I see you are now up to 78 total posts now. All saying exactly the same thing no matter what the thread. I think you have even used the "e-mob" term in all but about 3 of them. You need to get you some new material your dying up there.

LOL, this coming from one of the most dire obsessive compulsive Lance/Johan haters on the board. Which turns every thread into the same drivel. Yikes. Pot meet kettle.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Very interesting question. But, the thing you fail to realize or understand is that if anything or anyone is associated with the following:

Lance, Johan, USPS, Discovery, RadioShack, Trek, Nike, Livestrong, etc. The list goes on and on, but I think this gives you a hint.

They are corrupt, weak, fakes and total scum of the earth and worthy of no respect and admiration. And, if you by any means support them you are attacked continually by the e-mob on CN forums. Which I am starting to wonder if it is actually like 5 people at the most just posting under different names. LOL.

Let the attacks continue e-mob. The show is grand and laughable.

Oh and to answer your question everybody else is great and without question. Just continue to follow the flow of the board. You will get the true hang of it.

This post says way more about you than it does about those you are trying to call the "e-mob".

At the same time you posted this I was posting the only post that gives JB any tactical credit. I would be one of LA's most stern critics which by your standard means I must be critical of all things Lance/JB Trek, Giro...etc

Since you support JB than I assume you can show some of JB's tactical innovations - or would you prefer to not produce anything but instead call all those who disagree with you part of a mob?

 

[Hugh Januss]

LOL, this coming from one of the most dire obsessive compulsive Lance/Johan haters on the board. Which turns every thread into the same drivel. Yikes. Pot meet kettle.

Ha, there was a time when I was an Armstrong fan. Now however, even without the irrefutable evidence that he doped his way to 7 TDF wins, but just from the weight of sheer idiocy exibited by the crowd of Lance chamois sniffing teabaggers, I am not.
But kudos to you for doubling your total posts without the word e-mob contained therein.

 

[jpmcmahonjr]

This post says way more about you than it does about those you are trying to call the "e-mob".

At the same time you posted this I was posting the only post that gives JB any tactical credit. I would be one of LA's most stern critics which by your standard means I must be critical of all things Lance/JB Trek, Giro...etc

Since you support JB than I assume you can show some of JB's tactical innovations - or would you prefer to not produce anything but instead call all those who disagree with you part of a mob?

Simple question. Do you attack me or anybody that supports Lance and anything he has to do with? If not then no I would not include you in the e-mob. Now if you choose to lump yourself in with that group then that is fine by me. Those I am calling the e-mob do so. Not just people with differing opinions. You can re-read my post and it simply spells this out.

Thanks for the response.

 

[jpmcmahonjr]

Ha, there was a time when I was an Armstrong fan. Now however, even without the irrefutable evidence that he doped his way to 7 TDF wins, but just from the weight of sheer idiocy exibited by the crowd of Lance chamois sniffing teabaggers, I am not.
But kudos to you for doubling your total posts without the word e-mob contained therein.

Glad you have freshed up your material as well. partner.

Pot and Kettle must be getting along swimmingly.

 

[Mellow Velo]

To be fair, putting a bunch of skinny Spanish climbers in the gutter is not that hard.

Not to mention they had ONCE sharing the donkey work.
Saiz blowing his stack and the race, on the Navacerrada and putting a motor bike into the wall, with the team car.
Gave that Vuelta to Postal by wasting his young talent's (Nozal) legs, while the guy was in gold, wet nursing his over the hill "star".(Gonzalez de Galdeano)

Didn't someone try to replicate that tactic, recently?