Johann bruyneel as a DS.

[Mellow Velo]

sorry but that´s not because of him, he just has/had exeptional riders.

I wouldn't take any notice of CentralCaliBike's list in anycase, as it's nonsense.
Cali couldn't even get Cali right. 4 editions, first winner was Phonak Flandis.
4-1=4?
No Giro or Vuelta wins, (Yates and Demol) means Bruyneel's only Tour win, without Lance, is this year with Contador.
Hard to label him a great DS, seeing it's been shown how hard he tried to hand his one, big race win to Andy Schleck!

 

[Beech Mtn]

I wouldn't take any notice of CentralCaliBike's list in anycase, as it's nonsense.
Cali couldn't even get Cali right. 4 editions, first winner was Phonak Flandis.
4-1=4?
No Giro or Vuelta wins, (Yates and Demol) means Bruyneel's only Tour win, without Lance, is this year with Contador. Hard to label him a great DS, seeing it's been shown how hard he tried to hand his one, big race win to Andy Schleck!

Sorry, but I don't give Bruyneel credit for AC's tour win this year. No radio in the TT, no prologue wheels, no team car ride down from Ventoux summit, no team car ride to TT, etc. Give Fran the credit, but not JB.

 

[Angliru]

I reckon you underrate Leepy. If he was given leadership in 2007, and got that 20 second penalty, and pistolero had to work for Leepy, and Rass got his breakaway neutralised, then Leepy wins. Simple.

Too many "if's", "and's" and "but's" for this argument to be going in Leipheimer's favor. He was given the leadership but didn't prove to be the rider that was strongest on the team. Since you want to interject "what if's" into the conversation, what if Contador hadn't gotten his mechanical on that first mountain stage? How much time would he have put into Leipheimer? I'm quite certain that the advantage that Leipheimer gained from his illegal tow by his team car far outweighed the 10/20 second penalty that he received.

 

[L29205]

Sorry, but I don't give Bruyneel credit for AC's tour win this year. No radio in the TT, no prologue wheels, no team car ride down from Ventoux summit, no team car ride to TT, etc. Give Fran the credit, but not JB.

Sorry I don't agree with some of the points in your post. I will go back to the point that the team was in bankruptcy at that point. No Wheels no Money, No Car no Money, no Radio hard to say if the hardware was bought before the finical problems it should have been available.

It is a hard situation it is easy to blame either side in these situations. Keep an open mind.

 

[lagartija]

Sorry I don't agree with some of the points in your post. I will go back to the point that the team was in bankruptcy at that point. No Wheels no Money, No Car no Money, no Radio hard to say if the hardware was bought before the finical problems it should have been available.

It is a hard situation it is easy to blame either side in these situations. Keep an open mind.

i think you missed most of the points alltogether.........no radio refers to JB not riding support veh for berto,....astana had plenty of vehicles the reference is to berto being left in the lurch by his own team at the ITT and coming down of the ventoux.......they had plenty of wheels it was a matter of choice who rode what and in my book the guy wearing a 1 on his back gets that first every time, no question.......astana was not on bankruptcy,yes sev of the sponsors withheld moneys earlier in the season, we saw it was evident at the Giro, but by the tour they were solvent if not they would not have been able to start... the UCI was all over the money situation, go back and read the media reports just prior to the tour start it may clear some things up for you

 

[L29205]

i think you missed most of the points alltogether.........no radio refers to JB not riding support veh for berto,....astana had plenty of vehicles the reference is to berto being left in the lurch by his own team at the ITT and coming down of the ventoux.......they had plenty of wheels it was a matter of choice who rode what and in my book the guy wearing a 1 on his back gets that first every time, no question.......astana was not on bankruptcy,yes sev of the sponsors withheld moneys earlier in the season, we saw it was evident at the Giro, but by the tour they were solvent if not they would not have been able to start... the UCI was all over the money situation, go back and read the media reports just prior to the tour start it may clear some things up for you

The riders were paid but were the suppliers? Next, does number 2 (no pun intended while it is appropriate) who has access to go fast gear outside of the contract has to give the go fast toys to everyone. I still believe that Astana was pushed into paying the riders by LA saying he would buy the team out. That is the reason that the UCI let them race. Once again it comes back to LA. Still number 2 but only by his actions.

 

[lagartija]

The riders were paid but were the suppliers? Next, does number 2 (no pun intended while it is appropriate) who has access to go fast gear outside of the contract has to give the go fast toys to everyone. I still believe that Astana was pushed into paying the riders by LA saying he would buy the team out. That is the reason that the UCI let them race. Once again it comes back to LA. Still number 2 but only by his actions.

wow not sure what to make of this, ...........the UCI let astana race because armstrong threatened to buy out the team? .......man i cant talk to you, my mouth is still open after having read that......

i will close by saying if by suppliers you mean sponsors , they dont get paid, they do the paying....as in paying for a rider to use there gear, as well as supplying it in spades...............

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The riders were paid but were the suppliers? Next, does number 2 (no pun intended while it is appropriate) who has access to go fast gear outside of the contract has to give the go fast toys to everyone. I still believe that Astana was pushed into paying the riders by LA saying he would buy the team out. That is the reason that the UCI let them race. Once again it comes back to LA. Still number 2 but only by his actions.

Well, I wonder what Lance would have said in the 99-05 years if one of his subordinates had better equipment...

Just goes to show you, it's not about the bike. Right Lance?

 

[gatete]

I reckon you underrate Leepy. If he was given leadership in 2007, and got that 20 second penalty, and pistolero had to work for Leepy, and Rass got his breakaway neutralised, then Leepy wins. Simple.

Contador got leadership courtesy of the stage Rass won in the break, because his souplesse on the climbs was so impressive. But was superficial. Leepy went down with the mechanical on that stage too, which got him the 20 second penalty, and hurt his position on that stage.

Ofcourse, some can handle leadership, and some cant.

IMO I think Levi lost due to lack of leadership, I also think we'll never know whether he was physically stronger that AC, But I do think he was weaker in the Leader stand point, he even admited it so at the end of the stage 16 "ALberto is phenomenal, he's a real contender" I think Levi lost the Tour right then in there.

 

[gatete]

Sorry I don't agree with some of the points in your post. I will go back to the point that the team was in bankruptcy at that point. No Wheels no Money, No Car no Money, no Radio hard to say if the hardware was bought before the finical problems it should have been available.

It is a hard situation it is easy to blame either side in these situations. Keep an open mind.

I give you the Radio, and that's a maybe, but the cars.... there were cars, just not for Alberto

 

[Mellow Velo]

What's with highlighting one sentence from a post, but not reading the punchline?

I wonder how come none of the cycling press picked up on L29205's piece of news? "Lance Saves Astana and Contador's Tour from the UCI."

I give you the Radio, and that's a maybe, but the cars.... there were cars, just not for Alberto

Certainly not at the top of the Ventoux.

 

[Tangled Tango]

I think the genius of JB is in how he handled the Astana team during the Tour 2009;

1 Working not so secretly to turn the leadership roles toward LA and never getting caught doing so.

2 Pretending to support AC.

3 Telling the press that his team had four leaders.

4 Ordering his riders to help the gap that AC missed and (the genius part)to the press was the normal thing to do even with a (the original) leader off the back.

5 Not getting ridiculed by the press when announcing with LA the new Shack team for 2010, in the middle of the race. Absolutely no respect for the race or the current team. And LA talks about team work. This is the definition of no class.

6 Making it seem completely normal even though it was the first time ever in his career as a DS that they should be working to get multiple racers on the podium in Paris and not just the yellow jersey. And convincing the world that it was the job of the yellow jersey to help. Like he and LA ever tried even remotely to get a USPS on the podium with LA.

For these things and more JB was and will continue to be a genius.
I´m not including his PR skills, money raising skills (not that impressive considering he has LA to sell)

I´m sure I´ve missed some things so fill in as you wish.

 

[bianchigirl]

Bruyneel as a DS? Vastly overrated

 

[L29205]

wow not sure what to make of this, ...........the UCI let astana race because armstrong threatened to buy out the team? .......man i cant talk to you, my mouth is still open after having read that......

i will close by saying if by suppliers you mean sponsors , they dont get paid, they do the paying....as in paying for a rider to use there gear, as well as supplying it in spades...............

There are suppliers and than there are sponsors, two different things. A sponsor will give bikes, but a supplier is the car dealer that gives the team a lease on a car.

The comment concerning LA and UCI, is based on LA trying to buy out the team and that action forced Astana's sponsors to provide the assurances that the UCI needed to allow Astana to race.

 

[thehog]

Mate there is more bait in this post than my local trout farm!

I think the genius of JB is in how he handled the Astana team during the Tour 2009;

1 Working not so secretly to turn the leadership roles toward LA and never getting caught doing so.

2 Pretending to support AC.

3 Telling the press that his team had four leaders.

4 Ordering his riders to help the gap that AC missed and (the genius part)to the press was the normal thing to do even with a (the original) leader off the back.

5 Not getting ridiculed by the press when announcing with LA the new Shack team for 2010, in the middle of the race. Absolutely no respect for the race or the current team. And LA talks about team work. This is the definition of no class.

6 Making it seem completely normal even though it was the first time ever in his career as a DS that they should be working to get multiple racers on the podium in Paris and not just the yellow jersey. And convincing the world that it was the job of the yellow jersey to help. Like he and LA ever tried even remotely to get a USPS on the podium with LA.

For these things and more JB was and will continue to be a genius.
I´m not including his PR skills, money raising skills (not that impressive considering he has LA to sell)

I´m sure I´ve missed some things so fill in as you wish.

 

[Polish]

Boss Man

I think the genius of JB is.....fill in as you wish.

Good list!

I would add that in addition to all that genius you outlined, he also managed/directed/orchestrated to get TWO guys onto the Final TdF Podium in Paris.

He put TWO on the Podium in 07 also. Incredible!

(BTW, it really is incorrect to call Bruyneel a mere "DS"...maybe "Ultra-DS"
or "The Mother of All DS's" or "The DS's DS" or 'The Belgian Boss")

 

[Hugh Januss]

Good list!

I would add that in addition to all that genius you outlined, he also managed/directed/orchestrated to get TWO guys onto the Final TdF Podium in Paris.

He put TWO on the Podium in 07 also. Incredible!

(BTW, it really is incorrect to call Bruyneel a mere "DS"...maybe "Ultra-DS"
or "The Mother of All DS's" or "The DS's DS" or 'The Belgian Boss")

I think "Ultra DB" is closest to the mark after this past TDF.

 

[kurtinsc]

Please, add to the Hog's list. It will still not come close. Note the list I provided is filled with Classics, where tactics actually mean something

You should read Hinault's biography. He credits Guimard tactics for many of his single day race wins, even though they had a falling out he still recognizes his genius.

I don't know how much results come from the strategy of the DS... but Bruyneel has some great results for the teams he's worked for. And he's 45... it's not like he's been doing this very long. He didn't start until 1999.

He's been a DS for 11 seasons. In that time his teams have won 9 TDF's, 2 Vuelta de Espana's and 2 Giro di Italias. The teams also won 2 Dauphine Libere's, a Tour de Suisse, Tour of Romandia, 2 Catalunya's, 2 Pais Vascos, Gent Wevelgem, Ouest France Plouay, and a bunch of US races and other smaller European Stage Races that aren't "pro tour" events right now.

That doesn't factor in other high results... his teams have had a lot of podiums in big stage races as well as wins.


I'm sorry... but regardless of HOW you get there... 13 grand tour wins in 11 seasons is pretty exceptional results.

As far as classics... the wins arent' there. I don't think any of his teams have been focused at all on that though... they're pretty focused on stage races. Still... podiums at Gent-Wevelgem (2), Paris-Roubaix (2), Ronde van Vlaanderen, Dwars Door Vlaanderen, Amstel Gold (2), Milan-Sanremo, Giro Lombardia, and Ouest France Plouay aren't horrible results for a stage race centered team that rarely has more then one or two riders who are geared toward classics.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't know how much results come from the strategy of the DS... but Bruyneel has some great results for the teams he's worked for. And he's 45... it's not like he's been doing this very long. He didn't start until 1999.

He's been a DS for 11 seasons. In that time his teams have won 9 TDF's, 2 Vuelta de Espana's and 2 Giro di Italias. The teams also won 2 Dauphine Libere's, a Tour de Suisse, Tour of Romandia, 2 Catalunya's, 2 Pais Vascos, Gent Wevelgem, Ouest France Plouay, and a bunch of US races and other smaller European Stage Races that aren't "pro tour" events right now.

That doesn't factor in other high results... his teams have had a lot of podiums in big stage races as well as wins.


I'm sorry... but regardless of HOW you get there... 13 grand tour wins in 11 seasons is pretty exceptional results.

As far as classics... the wins arent' there. I don't think any of his teams have been focused at all on that though... they're pretty focused on stage races. Still... podiums at Gent-Wevelgem (2), Paris-Roubaix (2), Ronde van Vlaanderen, Dwars Door Vlaanderen, Amstel Gold (2), Milan-Sanremo, Giro Lombardia, and Ouest France Plouay aren't horrible results for a stage race centered team that rarely has more then one or two riders who are geared toward classics.

Once again, The Hog was not in the car for the Giro, The Vuelta, Gent Wevelgem, etc.

In races were tactics matter, the classics, The Hog has done nothing.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Yes, the great director who has never come close to winning a single classic.

What happened in 2006, then? His comment at the end of the first week of the Tour:
"I don't know who my Tour leader is yet, as I have four."..............
A few days later, he could have said:
"Oops, sorry, ......make that, I have none."
His 2006 Tour decision making was a shambles. The team was pulling in all directions.

Also, same logic being applied here, makes Rolf Aldag a tactical genius.
Little to do with Cavendish, EBH, Griepel et al..........

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Once again, The Hog was not in the car for the Giro, The Vuelta, Gent Wevelgem, etc.

In races were tactics matter, the classics, The Hog has done nothing.

I might be mistaken, but I thought Brunyeel was in the car for Savoldelli's 2005 Giro win and Heras's 03 Vuelta win, not for Contador's wins though.

 

[thehog]

I might be mistaken, but I thought Brunyeel was in the car for Savoldelli's 2005 Giro win and Heras's 03 Vuelta win, not for Contador's wins though.

Sean Yates did the 2005 Giro. The Hog didn't even turn up.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, the great director who has never come close to winning a single classic.

What happened in 2006, then? His comment at the end of the first week of the Tour:
"I don't know who my Tour leader is yet, as I have four."..............
A few days later, he could have said:
"Oops, sorry, ......make that, I have none."
His 2006 Tour decision making was a shambles. The team was pulling in all directions.

Also, same logic being applied here, makes Rolf Aldag a tactical genius.
Little to do with Cavendish, EBH, Griepel et al..........

I think we can all agree that Rolf Aldag is the greatest DS' ever

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Sean Yates did the 2005 Giro. The Hog didn't even turn up.

Really? I stand corrected. Thanks bro.

 

[kurtinsc]

Yes, the great director who has never come close to winning a single classic.

What happened in 2006, then? His comment at the end of the first week of the Tour:
"I don't know who my Tour leader is yet, as I have four."..............
A few days later, he could have said:
"Oops, sorry, ......make that, I have none."
His 2006 Tour decision making was a shambles. The team was pulling in all directions.

Also, same logic being applied here, makes Rolf Aldag a tactical genius.
Little to do with Cavendish, EBH, Griepel et al..........

Again, I stated up front I'm not sure how much tactics has to do with any of it.

I get in similar discussions when talking about US college football with people. Some people will say that a coach isn't good becuase he goes 10-2 but has a ton of talent. They'll then say a guy that goes 8-4 with worse talent is a better coach.

My point is that talent aquisition is part of the job... you are what your record is. If you go 10-2 as a bad game day coach based purely on the talent you aquire... you're at the same level as a guy who can't recruit talent but "coaches them up" to a 10-2 record.

Bruyneel is what his record is... 13 GT wins in 11 seasons. How he got there isn't really all that important.