Johann bruyneel as a DS.

[L29205]

Excuse my inaccuracy. He rode a HED H3D
for the prologue and the Annecy ITT. I stopped reading after I noticed that comment.

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/...ng+tour+de+france+prologue+2009+picture&hl=en

You are correct that LA rode a HED H3, my bad. It still does not mean what I wrote after the point was not accurate. Also, HED supplies wheels but that does not mean they give them away. Given Astana's financial situation I doubt a small company like HED would be willing to give away anything. In the US market giving a wheel to LA is smart marketing that is where HED's sales are.

 

[Publicus]

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/...ng+tour+de+france+prologue+2009+picture&hl=en

You are correct that LA rode a HED H3, my bad. It still does not mean what I wrote after the point was not accurate. Also, HED supplies wheels but that does not mean they give them away. Given Astana's financial situation I doubt a small company like HED would be willing to give away anything. In the US market giving a wheel to LA is smart marketing that is where HED's sales are.

I wasn't suggesting that what you wrote was inaccurate. I was just being honest and saying that I stopped reading to clear up the confusion. Also, AC rode the HED H3/H3D. I think you were correct when you noted earlier that Lance rode a Bontrager wheel.

I think you've finally stumbled onto the most logical explanation: which is that Astana simply didn't have the funds to get him the wheels that he wanted. I don't think AC implicated JB or LA and that conclusion (erroneous or not) has sprung largely from the other antics those two purportedly engaged in during the TdF.

In any event, hopefully we get to see JB's tactical brilliance at it's best this year. He won't have the strongest rider (AC) or team (Saxo and depending on its final roster, Samruk-Kazyna (Astana)), and may be without a radio. If he's as good tactically as some suggest, surely this year will be proof positive.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I wasn't suggesting that what you wrote was inaccurate. I was just being honest and saying that I stopped reading to clear up the confusion. Also, AC rode the HED H3/H3D. I think you were correct when you noted earlier that Lance rode a Bontrager wheel.

I think you've finally stumbled onto the most logical explanation: which is that Astana simply didn't have the funds to get him the wheels that he wanted. I don't think AC implicated JB or LA and that conclusion (erroneous or not) has sprung largely from the other antics those two purportedly engaged in during the TdF.

In any event, hopefully we get to see JB's tactical brilliance at it's best this year. He won't have the strongest rider (AC) or team (Saxo and depending on its final roster, Samruk-Kazyna (Astana)), and may be without a radio. If he's as good tactically as some suggest, surely this year will be proof positive.

Wait a second. The Hog has a team with Lance and two other Grand Tour podium finishers: Kloden and Levi. Plus Horner, Popo, and Zubeldia. Don't cut the Hog any slack here. If he doesn't win the TdF, he should be wrapped in bacon and dropped in the middle of Baghdad with an "I love ****...Cheney" sign.

 

[L29205]

I think you've finally stumbled onto the most logical explanation: which is that Astana simply didn't have the funds to get him the wheels that he wanted. I don't think AC implicated JB or LA and that conclusion (erroneous or not) has sprung largely from the other antics those two purportedly engaged in during the TdF.

In any event, hopefully we get to see JB's tactical brilliance at it's best this year. He won't have the strongest rider (AC) or team (Saxo and depending on its final roster, Samruk-Kazyna (Astana)), and may be without a radio. If he's as good tactically as some suggest, surely this year will be proof positive.

From the Wheel debate, I will agree. I think it was a complaint about Astana's ability to provide the goods.

From the thread standpoint, it will be interesting. I think JB will use the money behind him to put to together the best team. It is tactics not strategy. I don't see Astana being able to bring the supporting players together for next year. I really hope that Astana does not get a Pro tour license and AC can go to a team that can support him. Like it or not a full bore team behind LA will be hard to beat. Man crush beside, Evans is right.

 

[L29205]

Wait a second. The Hog has a team with Lance and two other Grand Tour podium finishers: Kloden and Levi. Plus Horner, Popo, and Zubeldia. Don't cut the Hog any slack here. If he doesn't win the TdF, he should be wrapped in bacon and dropped in the middle of Baghdad with an "I love ****...Cheney" sign.

Going back the the Yankees versus Cubs debate. And you are correct, if you have the biggest bank role you should have the best results. Nothing about being a genius, other then recruiting. Horner a great recuit, maybe the next super domestic

 

[Publicus]

From the Wheel debate, I will agree. I think it was a complaint about Astana's ability to provide the goods.

From the thread standpoint, it will be interesting. I think JB will use the money behind him to put to together the best team. It is tactics not strategy. I don't see Astana being able to bring the supporting players together for next year. I really hope that Astana does not get a Pro tour license and AC can go to a team that can support him. Like it or not a full bore team behind LA will be hard to beat. Man crush beside, Evans is right.

I think you are going to be surprised at how thoroughly RadioShack is dominated in next year's TdF.

 

[Publicus]

Wait a second. The Hog has a team with Lance and two other Grand Tour podium finishers: Kloden and Levi. Plus Horner, Popo, and Zubeldia. Don't cut the Hog any slack here. If he doesn't win the TdF, he should be wrapped in bacon and dropped in the middle of Baghdad with an "I love ****...Cheney" sign.

Zubeldia is still with Astana/Samurk-Kazyna as far as I know.

 

[Publicus]

Going back the the Yankees versus Cubs debate. And you are correct, if you have the biggest bank role you should have the best results. Nothing about being a genius, other then recruiting. Horner a great recuit, maybe the next super domestic

If he can stay upright.

One more point about RadioShack . . . let's assume they have a much stronger team than everyone else (though I'm not conceding that point), what is the tactic they can employ to dislodge AC and AS? Neither Lance, nor Levi or Kloden can ride a tempo to put those two under duress. None of them can put in a solo attack which can't be marked by one or more riders.

Radio Shack will be Astana 2009 without its strongest rider (by a wide margin). I'm almost positive Lance finishes off podium. Almost. I'll know once I see how AC performs throughout the spring.

 

[L29205]

If he can stay upright.

One more point about RadioShack . . . let's assume they have a much stronger team than everyone else (though I'm not conceding that point), what is the tactic they can employ to dislodge AC and AS? Neither Lance, nor Levi or Kloden can ride a tempo to put those two under duress. None of them can put in a solo attack which can't be marked by one or more riders.

Radio Shack will be Astana 2009 without its strongest rider (by a wide margin). I'm almost positive Lance finishes off podium. Almost. I'll know once I see how AC performs throughout the spring.

Very strong points, i would love to see the Shleck boys mix it up. But Astana with the best rider in the world will not be able to defend with the team behind him. Next year Andy/Frank is the winner. Most of Radioshack's key riders are past their prime. Old team with strong names able to get the dollars but not the wins.

 

[richwagmn]

Wait a second. The Hog has a team with Lance and two other Grand Tour podium finishers: Kloden and Levi. Plus Horner, Popo, and Zubeldia. Don't cut the Hog any slack here. If he doesn't win the TdF, he should be wrapped in bacon and dropped in the middle of Baghdad with an "I love ****...Cheney" sign.

Win the TDF? Dude, what are you smoking?

Please, do tell JB's plan to defeat Contador. AC can ride the wheels of any of Radio Shack's riders all day long. Not one of them can climb with AC. Not one.

And which of that geriatric bunch beat him in a ITT last year?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Win the TDF? Dude, what are you smoking?

Please, do tell JB's plan to defeat Contador. AC can ride the wheels of any of Radio Shack's riders all day long. Not one of them can climb with AC. Not one.

And which of that geriatric bunch beat him in a ITT last year?

Agreed, but don't you think johan bruyneel knows that AC is the best climber going round?

Why would JB and Lance even bother going to the tour if they didn't have some sort of stratergy to beat AC.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Win the TDF? Dude, what are you smoking?

Please, do tell JB's plan to defeat Contador. AC can ride the wheels of any of Radio Shack's riders all day long. Not one of them can climb with AC. Not one.

And which of that geriatric bunch beat him in a ITT last year?

Sigh. I thought my "wrapped in bacon" comment would be a sure sign I was being sarcastic, but apparently I'm either being too subtle or your sarcasm meter needs batteries.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Yeah, I wondered why Rich missed the obvious. Not at all subtle, but very funny.

More to get your teeth into here. Unfortunately, in Spanish. About how Team Hogstrong left Contador at the summit of Ventoux and wouldn't let him ride in the team car. Well, I guess we all know who owns them....
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...oticia%2526te%253D%2526a%253D5%2526ov%253D375

 

[blackcat]

Win the TDF? Dude, what are you smoking?

Please, do tell JB's plan to defeat Contador. AC can ride the wheels of any of Radio Shack's riders all day long. Not one of them can climb with AC. Not one.

And which of that geriatric bunch beat him in a ITT last year?

lets assess that. In 2007, the final climb of the TDF Leepy Leepheimer worked for pistolero, then pisto and chicken went away from Evans, Leepy was behind Evans, then Leepy passes Evans, AND PISTOLERO. Then in the latter half of the 2008 Vuelta, Leepy working for pistolero, was right with him the entire race, and out chrono'ed him.

I think, if we had a fit Leepy Leepheimer on a team without StrongArm and without Pistolero but WITH Bruyneels "medical program" then Leepy would have been with Andy Schleck and pistolero. Leepy had proven in 2007, and 2008, on Bruyneels program, he was equally as strong as pistolero, perhaps stronger on the back of his chrono.

So, no, Pistolero is not without peer. Leepy can go with him. But Leepy has to work for StrongArm, so bad luck Leepy.

Leepy is also getting on, but I reckon the medical program can sustain him for one more year. But he has to work for another rider inferior to him imo.

 

[Tangled Tango]

I don't think it's what all teams do for their leader. Some others brought up the budget issue, using the NY Yankees analogy.

Well, it ain't necessarily so.

There are big budget teams that don't get results... the Yankees hockey cousins the Rangers... big money, big names, not very successful since they won the Cup in 1994.

Sorry but I can not imagine how baseball or hockey can even remotely be compared to cycling, big money or no. Baseball especially cannot be won by any one great player. Hockey perhaps. Cycling definitely as AC showed in the Tour 09.

How about T-Mobile... big big money, big big talent... but they couldn't work together to beat USPS.

My point again is USPS had LA. There was no team and no cyclist who was going to beat LA regardless of the "big big money or big big talent". LA was bigger and better. And T-Mobile did work together well, but they were up against LA and a much better team in the mtns.

JB managed to get 9 guys to work together for a common goal and succeeded.

The same can be said of Festina with RV for the polka dot jersey, or any and every team working for a particular rider for a stage win or whatever the goal. How hard was it for JB to get those guys to work together? They were getting paid to do a job. That job to sacrifice themselves for LA.

Lots of other DS's have had strong teams, big money and not had the results JB has had. /QUOTE]

Sure, but they didn´t have one thing that JB did: LA. Once again, without LA where would genius JB be now?

 

[Publicus]

lets assess that. In 2007, the final climb of the TDF Leepy Leepheimer worked for pistolero, then pisto and chicken went away from Evans, Leepy was behind Evans, then Leepy passes Evans, AND PISTOLERO. Then in the latter half of the 2008 Vuelta, Leepy working for pistolero, was right with him the entire race, and out chrono'ed him.

I think, if we had a fit Leepy Leepheimer on a team without StrongArm and without Pistolero but WITH Bruyneels "medical program" then Leepy would have been with Andy Schleck and pistolero. Leepy had proven in 2007, and 2008, on Bruyneels program, he was equally as strong as pistolero, perhaps stronger on the back of his chrono.

So, no, Pistolero is not without peer. Leepy can go with him. But Leepy has to work for StrongArm, so bad luck Leepy.

Leepy is also getting on, but I reckon the medical program can sustain him for one more year. But he has to work for another rider inferior to him imo.

I think this is a good example of the younger AC. One of his weaknesses was that he would put in attacks, but couldn't maintain the speed. It's what he worked on during the off season this year. He knows its what his competitors think is the trick to beating him (AS said you have to be patient and let AC come back to you (i.e., slows)). Which as we all will note didn't happen on Arcalis or Verbier. None of the RadioShack riders can do it.

 

[Angliru]

Also there is an entirely different level of pressure and stress when you are the designated team ride leader compared to being the rider who is riding in service of that leader. In the grand tours each and every time that Leipheimer went into the event as a team's ride leader/protected rider he has had less than stellar results. In 2008 he was actually Discovery's team leader with Contador riding as the team's wildcard...until Contador commenced to drop Leipheimer on each and every climb with the exception of the last stage prior to Rassmussen's dismissal by from the Tour by Rabobank. His 2008 result by itself is impressive but the majority of the event was spent as the Contador's domestique, all the pressure was on Contador. Another example is his performance at the 2009 Giro where he went in as one of the favorites with Armstrong riding as his super-domestique. We all know that it ended with Armstrong going on his own, only going back to domestique duties when he saw that his attempt to bridge was thwarted by a very well timed Sastre attack just as he made contact with the leaders.

Funny that even going into this year's (2009) Tour Leipheimer was still holding out hope of somehow still winning the overall by way of some unanswered escape that would allow him to sneak in under the radar, a direct result of his opponents marking Contador and Armstrong. Possibly he see's that being in the company of rider's that are his superiors in the grand tours (Contador, Armstrong, Kloden) are his best and least stressful way of obtaining his ultimate goal. Rather than competing against the best why not ride with them and slip into victory unawares.

 

[blackcat]

I think this is a good example of the younger AC. One of his weaknesses was that he would put in attacks, but couldn't maintain the speed. It's what he worked on during the off season this year. He knows its what his competitors think is the trick to beating him (AS said you have to be patient and let AC come back to you (i.e., slows)). Which as we all will note didn't happen on Arcalis or Verbier. None of the RadioShack riders can do it.

Leepy was injured. Lets see him get leadership. He wont ofcourse, but he was the guy I would have put money on if the troika at Astana, was split, StrongArm, pistolero, and Leepy. But Leepy had to have the advantage of the Bruyneel program.

 

[blackcat]

Also there is an entirely different level of pressure and stress when you are the designated team ride leader compared to being the rider who is riding in service of that leader. In the grand tours each and every time that Leipheimer went into the event as a team's ride leader/protected rider he has had less than stellar results. In 2008 he was actually Discovery's team leader with Contador riding as the team's wildcard...until Contador commenced to drop Leipheimer on each and every climb with the exception of the last stage prior to Rassmussen's dismissal by from the Tour by Rabobank. His 2008 result by itself is impressive but the majority of the event was spent as the Contador's domestique, all the pressure was on Contador. Another example is his performance at the 2009 Giro where he went in as one of the favorites with Armstrong riding as his super-domestique. We all know that it ended with Armstrong going on his own, only going back to domestique duties when he saw that his attempt to bridge was thwarted by a very well timed Sastre attack just as he made contact with the leaders.

Funny that even going into this year's (2009) Tour Leipheimer was still holding out hope of somehow still winning the overall by way of some unanswered escape that would allow him to sneak in under the radar, a direct result of his opponents marking Contador and Armstrong. Possibly he see's that being in the company of rider's that are his superiors in the grand tours (Contador, Armstrong, Kloden) are his best and least stressful way of obtaining his ultimate goal. Rather than competing against the best why not ride with them and slip into victory unawares.

I reckon you underrate Leepy. If he was given leadership in 2007, and got that 20 second penalty, and pistolero had to work for Leepy, and Rass got his breakaway neutralised, then Leepy wins. Simple.

Contador got leadership courtesy of the stage Rass won in the break, because his souplesse on the climbs was so impressive. But was superficial. Leepy went down with the mechanical on that stage too, which got him the 20 second penalty, and hurt his position on that stage.

Ofcourse, some can handle leadership, and some cant.

 

[hfer07]

fellas using the comparison of teams with big budgets to represent success in cases such as the NY Yankees, the NLF, or perhaps in Football like the case of the Real Madrid, Barca, Manchester, of Juventus etc,etc, etc. IS WRONG!!!

In cycling, bid budgets are used very differently, compared to the other sports:
*aside from the obvious advantages that cash flow would bring along to any sport, such as the quality of athletes the team could get, the equipment, infrastructure for transportation, resting locations, feeding program, etc.
MONEY IN CYCLING IS A MUST TO GET A "MEDICAL PROGRAM"
MONEY IN CYCLING IS A MUST TO BUY FAVORS & RACES (BRIBERY)
MONEY IN CYCLING IS A MUST TO DO ENDORSEMENTS (UCI)
MONEY IN CYCLING IS A MUST TO BUY YOUR OWN WHEELS!!

Going back to the topic, Bruyneel glows in all of the above, and that's where he's found so much success in every team he's managed. as far as tactical knowledge on his behalf.... It is really necessary when he can buy his way around the sport to get results?

 

[Angliru]

I reckon you underrate Leepy. If he was given leadership in 2007, and got that 20 second penalty, and pistolero had to work for Leepy, and Rass got his breakaway neutralised, then Leepy wins. Simple.

Contador got leadership courtesy of the stage Rass won in the break, because his souplesse on the climbs was so impressive. But was superficial. Leepy went down with the mechanical on that stage too, which got him the 20 second penalty, and hurt his position on that stage.

Ofcourse, some can handle leadership, and some cant.

Contador had a mechanical on the very first mountain stage, was able to bridge back up to the group of Moreau, Leipheimer, Valverde and Mayo and still finished the stage ahead of Leipheimer. What got Leipheimer the penalty was his blatantly being aided by the team car as it propelled him in plain view of the camera moto's all while feigning having his rear derailleur adjusted, which was plain for all to see not the case.

Your last sentence states my point as it applies to Leipheimer and grand tours.

 

[blackcat]

well, Leepy does more for the support of PETA than Evans ever would.

 

[peloton]

I reckon you underrate Leepy. If he was given leadership in 2007, and got that 20 second penalty, and pistolero had to work for Leepy, and Rass got his breakaway neutralised, then Leepy wins. Simple.

Ofcourse, some can handle leadership, and some cant.

Agree, but LL got a 10 second penalty from the blatant help from his team car.

 

[DavidVilla7]

9 TdF wins as DS - 2 Giro - 2 Vuelta - 3 Tour de Georgia - 1 Volta a Catalunya - 2 Tour of Austria - 1 Paris-Nice - 4 Tour of California - 1 Tour of Missouri.

Some of the highlights (and I am not certain that it is current).

sorry but that´s not because of him, he just has/had exeptional riders.

 

[Murray]

sorry but that´s not because of him, he just has/had exeptional riders.

If that's the case why do they have any DS's in the sport at all?