Johann bruyneel as a DS.

[Moose McKnuckles]

Again, I stated up front I'm not sure how much tactics has to do with any of it.

I get in similar discussions when talking about US college football with people. Some people will say that a coach isn't good becuase he goes 10-2 but has a ton of talent. They'll then say a guy that goes 8-4 with worse talent is a better coach.

My point is that talent aquisition is part of the job... you are what your record is. If you go 10-2 as a bad game day coach based purely on the talent you aquire... you're at the same level as a guy who can't recruit talent but "coaches them up" to a 10-2 record.

Bruyneel is what his record is... 13 GT wins in 11 seasons. How he got there isn't really all that important.

Once again for the people in the cheap seats, Bruyneel was not the DS at the Giro and Vuelta.

 

[Tangled Tango]

Mate there is more bait in this post than my local trout farm!

What´s more I don´t fish.

 

[richwagmn]

I think the genius of JB is in how he handled the Astana team during the Tour 2009;

1 Working not so secretly to turn the leadership roles toward LA and never getting caught doing so.

2 Pretending to support AC.

3 Telling the press that his team had four leaders.

4 Ordering his riders to help the gap that AC missed and (the genius part)to the press was the normal thing to do even with a (the original) leader off the back.

5 Not getting ridiculed by the press when announcing with LA the new Shack team for 2010, in the middle of the race. Absolutely no respect for the race or the current team. And LA talks about team work. This is the definition of no class.

6 Making it seem completely normal even though it was the first time ever in his career as a DS that they should be working to get multiple racers on the podium in Paris and not just the yellow jersey. And convincing the world that it was the job of the yellow jersey to help. Like he and LA ever tried even remotely to get a USPS on the podium with LA.

For these things and more JB was and will continue to be a genius.
I´m not including his PR skills, money raising skills (not that impressive considering he has LA to sell)

I´m sure I´ve missed some things so fill in as you wish.

Don't forget his latest salvo at AC. Completely classless. The funny thing is that AC just refuses to take the bait from JB and LA. Must frustrate them to no end.

 

[kurtinsc]

Once again for the people in the cheap seats, Bruyneel was not the DS at the Giro and Vuelta.

He aquired the talent. I guess you want to separate his duties as managing director from DS role during the race. If so, that's fine.

He's an excellent team manager. He's a good enough DS (as are the other DS's on his teams) to win 13 GT's in 11 years with the talent he brought in as team manager.

Is that better?

 

[richwagmn]

Sigh. I thought my "wrapped in bacon" comment would be a sure sign I was being sarcastic, but apparently I'm either being too subtle or your sarcasm meter needs batteries.

No, I failed at detecting sarcasm...

 

[karlboss]

I orignally posted, as i was sick of people factoring in JB's ability as a DS as to why someone on his team may win next year or why he has won.
I think it has been pointed out his record as team director is excellent, he manages to recruit good teams and have them in good shape when they get to the grand tours. However as a DS, tactically, he may be very good, but really hasn't shown anything. So as for next year his work has been done he's recruited, Kloden, leipheimer, armstrong, horner, popovych and they will be on his program up to the tour 2010. Which, without the strongest rider, may be his first opportunity to prove me wrong.
I say to win he needs to gamble, but I from his past i can't see it. However maybe that will be his strength, noone will expect it. Most likely I see someone on the podium and a humble, we just weren't good enough after a half effort too late.

 

[Race Radio]

So as for next year his work has been done he's recruited, Kloden, leipheimer, armstrong, horner, popovych and they will be on his program up to the tour 2010. Which, without the strongest rider, may be his first opportunity to prove me wrong.

Not the first opportunity. He proved you wrong in the 2006 Tour. No riders in the Top 10 and 8th placed team.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Pre cancer Lance, Ekimov, George Hincapie, Tom Boonan, Leife Hoste, Stijn Devolder, Max van Heeswijk, Roger Hammond.
All great classics riders, who rode for the Hog.
What did none of them manage while under his wing?

Just proving you wrong for April, August and October of each year.

 

[flicker]

Bruyneels' Downfall

Bruyneel's http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bruyneels+downfall&search_type=&aq=f I want proof of Johann being a "Grifter"

 

[karlboss]

If I recall my contention was he isn't a great DS without the strongest rider, hence 2006 and his classics escapades all prove me right, hence winning in 2010 is the first opportunity to prove me wrong.

PS thanks flicker, best laugh I've had in a while

 

[flicker]

Once again for the people in the cheap seats, Bruyneel was not the DS at the Giro and Vuelta.
This comment was lame. Because Johann, Lance and with a little help from Eddy Merckx are the shot callers. Everytime.

 

[COLIN LAING]

Radio Shack Training Camp

I notice that the first Training Camp for Team Radio Shack is to be held in Tucson Az in December....I also notice the over-load of Foreign sounding names,,BEWARE.

I was in Sonoita, about 30 miles South of Tucson only last week,,seeking out some wineries,I knew the area rather well since we lived in Tucson about 20 years ago but have opted to live in the Phoenix area now.

To get to the reason for this post, the riders had better carry with them, their passports, work-permits and visas at all times when out training.
Although I look like a typical Arizonan now, drive a Dodge car etc..I was still stopped by the Border Patrol,,midway between Sonoita and Tucson,,not only stopped butr Questioned about my strong Yorkshire accent and lack of formal documents.I produced my driver's licence and assured the officer that I became a U.S citizen in 1974 and wasn't in the habit of carrying a passport in my home State.

So, hope the riders have all the papers required, don't want them deported or anything..COLIN LAING

 

[kurtinsc]

Not the first opportunity. He proved you wrong in the 2006 Tour. No riders in the Top 10 and 8th placed team.

Really? You're going to point out one year with a poor showing in the tour and say that means he's no good?

Is there another DS/Team Manager with 9 PODIUMS in the tour in 10 consecutive tries? 9 top 10's?

That's a really ridiculous standard.

 

[karlboss]

The argument isn't that bruyneel is no good, it's that he is not tactical genius. For tactical genius status I'd say you need 2 things.
The first is not losing when you should win. I'd say that is achieved.
The second would be winning when you lose, not achieved.

Noone said he was a bad DS, just not a genius.

 

[Race Radio]

Really? You're going to point out one year with a poor showing in the tour and say that means he's no good?

Is there another DS/Team Manager with 9 PODIUMS in the tour in 10 consecutive tries? 9 top 10's?

That's a really ridiculous standard.

Armstrong and Contador could have won the Tour of FdJ. The Hog showed his "talent" (or lack there of) in the 2006 Tour. Without a one in a generation rider he did nothing.

 

[L29205]

Armstrong and Contador could have won the Tour of FdJ. The Hog showed his "talent" (or lack there of) in the 2006 Tour. Without a one in a generation rider he did nothing.

+1
good recruiting not tactical genius.

 

[Galic Ho]

Really? You're going to point out one year with a poor showing in the tour and say that means he's no good?

Is there another DS/Team Manager with 9 PODIUMS in the tour in 10 consecutive tries? 9 top 10's?

That's a really ridiculous standard.

The only 7 that count were Lances. AC's 2007 Tour win maybe. The rest of the GT wins, Salvoldelli, AC and Heras were all under different DS. He gets absolutely no credit.

Credit for hiring the best riders, but nothing else. The Hog is a fitting description for the man.

 

[Polish]

"26 Riders from 16 Countries"

How many languages does Johan speak??
More than a couple I would bet!

Team RadioShack for 2010

Riders: Lance Armstrong (USA), Fumiyuki Beppu (JAP), Sam Bewley (NZL), Jani Brajkovic (SLO), Matthew Busche (USA), Ben Hermans (BEL), Chris Horner (USA), Daryl Impey (SAF), Markel Irizar (SPA), Andreas Klöden (GER), Levi Leipheimer (USA), Geoffroy Lequatre (FRA), Fuyu Li (CHI), Tiago Machado (POR), Jason McCartney (USA), Dmitriy Muravyev (KAZ), Sérgio Paulinho (POR), Yaroslav Popovych (UKR), Gregory Rast (SUI), Sébastien Rosseler (BEL), Ivan Rovny (RUS), José Luis Rubiera (SPA), Bjorn Selander (USA), Gert Steegmans (BEL), Tomas Vaitkus (LIT) , Haimar Zubeldia (SPA)

Sports Manager: Johan Bruyneel (BEL)

Sports Directors: Dirk Demol (BEL), Alain Gallopin (FRA), Viatcheslav Ekimov (RUS) & José Azevedo (POR)

 

[Hugh Januss]

How many languages does Johan speak??
More than a couple I would bet!

Team RadioShack for 2010

Riders: Lance Armstrong (USA), Fumiyuki Beppu (JAP), Sam Bewley (NZL), Jani Brajkovic (SLO), Matthew Busche (USA), Ben Hermans (BEL), Chris Horner (USA), Daryl Impey (SAF), Markel Irizar (SPA), Andreas Klöden (GER), Levi Leipheimer (USA), Geoffroy Lequatre (FRA), Fuyu Li (CHI), Tiago Machado (POR), Jason McCartney (USA), Dmitriy Muravyev (KAZ), Sérgio Paulinho (POR), Yaroslav Popovych (UKR), Gregory Rast (SUI), Sébastien Rosseler (BEL), Ivan Rovny (RUS), José Luis Rubiera (SPA), Bjorn Selander (USA), Gert Steegmans (BEL), Tomas Vaitkus (LIT) , Haimar Zubeldia (SPA)

Sports Manager: Johan Bruyneel (BEL)

Sports Directors: Dirk Demol (BEL), Alain Gallopin (FRA), Viatcheslav Ekimov (RUS) & José Azevedo (POR)

And your point is? Oh I forgot you never really have one, or are you saying that he is the worlds best DS because he can speak several languages? Ok so he is better that Brailsford then, he seems to have a problem with those latin speakers.

 

[Tangled Tango]

Once again for the people in the cheap seats, Bruyneel was not the DS at the Giro and Vuelta.
This comment was lame. Because Johann, Lance and with a little help from Eddy Merckx are the shot callers. Everytime.

A little off topic but:

Very Good Point that I haven´t seen here until now: the Merckx factor with LA is far more than a friend giving a little advice. LA & JB modeled their Tour teams almost exactly as Merckx had his own.......nothing for the team, everything for the leader. The difference may be that within Merckx´s team there was some grumbling that they were never allowed to grab even a stage here or there in any GT, while USPS seemed to have a better team moral. Merckx had some of the strongest riders of the day and they had only one job......work for the leader. I think Merckx has also impressed upon LA to be as tough and unliked as he cared to. Merckx had few friends in the peloton
and was extremely unpopular with masses of the French people and journalists. Of course the nicer, friendlier returning LA simply shows his need (as the aging past boss) for as many friends in the peloton as he can find.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Yes, well, the Merckx factor went on sabatical, this past July.

So, how did the Shack pull Zubeldia out of the hat?
Wasn't he supposed to be the token rider left at Astana, to get Bruyneel out?
Now, he turns up on their press release, again.

More grifting?

Edit: As I thought. Beppu confirmed with Skil, two weeks ago.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/skil-shimano-complete-team-for-2010

I'd guess CNs have taken their lead from Bruyneel's own posting.
IMO, this release is about as reliable as a set of Contador's wheels.

 

[Angliru]

He aquired the talent. I guess you want to separate his duties as managing director from DS role during the race. If so, that's fine.

I don't believe he should receive sole credit for the talent on the roster. Riders often will go to a team due to their prior connections/experience with one or more members of the management team.

 

[kurtinsc]

The only 7 that count were Lances. AC's 2007 Tour win maybe. The rest of the GT wins, Salvoldelli, AC and Heras were all under different DS. He gets absolutely no credit.

Credit for hiring the best riders, but nothing else. The Hog is a fitting description for the man.

This is kind of silly.

I'm not from a cycling background... but it feels to me that the manager of the team gets credit for the all of the team's wins to at least some degree.

It feels to me that you're saying the equivalent of not giving a head coach and GM of a NFL team credit for team wins because he's got his offensive and defensive coordinators calling the plays in some of the games.

Regardless of how he did it and who was calling the shots in the car... 9 tour wins in 10 tries, and 13 GT wins in 11 seasons running teams.

 

[kurtinsc]

The argument isn't that bruyneel is no good, it's that he is not tactical genius. For tactical genius status I'd say you need 2 things.
The first is not losing when you should win. I'd say that is achieved.
The second would be winning when you lose, not achieved.

Noone said he was a bad DS, just not a genius.

The argument could be made that in his 10 tour appearances, Bruyneel didn't have the favored rider twice.

2006... where his team did not win. 2007... where they did (Leipheimer had the 6th best betting odds going into the race, Contador 12th).

It could be 3 times... I have no idea who was favored in 1999 (though clearly Lance was every year in his streak after that).

Again... I don't know how you judge this sort of thing. I enjoy watching cycling but by no means am I qualified to rate the performance of a DS for a cycling team. But I'd think results in the race the team is focusing their entire year around would count for something. Winning that race nine times in ten attempts... even with the favored rider... seems like about as good results as anyone could possibly expect.

 

[Race Radio]

This is kind of silly.

I'm not from a cycling background... but it feels to me that the manager of the team gets credit for the all of the team's wins to at least some degree.

It feels to me that you're saying the equivalent of not giving a head coach and GM of a NFL team credit for team wins because he's got his offensive and defensive coordinators calling the plays in some of the games.

Regardless of how he did it and who was calling the shots in the car... 9 tour wins in 10 tries, and 13 GT wins in 11 seasons running teams.

If it is only about the riders that you hire then the Hog isn't even in the top 3.

Cyrille Guimard-Gitane-Campagnolo, Renault-Elf-Gitane, Système U-Gitane, Super U, Castorama, and Cofidis
José Miguel Echavarri-Reynolds, Banesto, Caisse d'Epargne – Illes Balears
Patrick Lefevre-Mapai, Quick Step