Jonas Vingegaard: Godzilla, the King of Monsters

[Krzysztof_O]

I'd laugh my ass off if Vingegaard did a Landis in the final week.

This is the mutants battle so expect the unexpected!

 

[Rackham]

the base of the Bonette is about 80k to go...

After he's dropped everyone on la Bonette, gone solo all the way to Isola 2000 & won the stage after making Finestre look like junior racing by comparison, there will still be people who'll say it's all because of tail wind, or because he ate a healthy banana, or that his lower w/kg in the final 50 meters of the stage when he's blowing kisses "clearly showed he was suffering unlike riders in the 1990's".

 

[Krzysztof_O]

After he's dropped everyone on la Bonette, gone solo all the way to Isola 2000 & won the stage after making Finestre look like junior racing by comparison, there will still be people who'll say it's all because of tail wind, or because he ate a healthy banana, or that his lower w/kg in the final 50 meters of the stage when he's blowing kisses "clearly showed he was suffering unlike riders in the 1990's".

The mutants reached absurd level and so did our expectations! I'm almost afraid of what Visma-LAB and Vingo may prepare for the Bonette stage. Maybe going from the gun? (Vingo later: I was holding back before Bonette but my wattometer showed 7 w/kg, I couldn't believe it but Grischa screamed that I could push even more!)

 

[zlev11]

After he's dropped everyone on la Bonette, gone solo all the way to Isola 2000 & won the stage after making Finestre look like junior racing by comparison, there will still be people who'll say it's all because of tail wind, or because he ate a healthy banana, or that his lower w/kg in the final 50 meters of the stage when he's blowing kisses "clearly showed he was suffering unlike riders in the 1990's".

what if he sits on the wheel of a guy doing 7.5 w/kg for 15 minutes? clean

 

[repoman]

I'd laugh my ass off if Vingegaard did a Landis in the final week.

I genuinely hope this happens

 

[houtdffan]

Think there is a better chance of Remco pulling a Landis due to the diesel climbing coming up. Though Vingo may sit on the wheel and win at the line

get ready for the 3 best climbing performance of the century that were set Sunday to be absolutely obliterated BOTH Friday and Saturday by all 3 aliens

 

[Fuglen]

With Vingegaard confirming the watt/kg calculations of the past few stages, we now know that Vingegaard and Pogarcar are physiologically comparable or even superior to the best versions of Pantani, Riis, Armstrong and Contador. The excuses/explanations of better bikes, road surface and weather/wind conditions can be dismissed. So, what is left? Did EPO and blood doping actually not enhance performance? Or has training and nutrition improved performance as much as doping did in the 90´s and 00´s?

 

[Monoxidator]

With Vingegaard confirming the watt/kg calculations of the past few stages, we now know that Vingegaard and Pogarcar are physiologically comparable or even superior to the best versions of Pantani, Riis, Armstrong and Contador. The excuses/explanations of better bikes, road surface and weather/wind conditions can be dismissed. So, what is left? Did EPO and blood doping actually not enhance performance? Or has training and nutrition improved performance as much as doping did in the 90´s and 00´s?

I could buy the training and nutrition closing the gap (at least the nutrition , training hasn’t changed that much materially in that time) but yeah they are stacking the legit gains on top of some other stuff

 

[Fuglen]

I could buy the training and nutrition closing the gap (at least the nutrition , training hasn’t changed that much materially in that time) but yeah they are stacking the legit gains on top of some other stuff

Maybe, but why does Pogacar keep bonking if the nutrition is so on point then

 

[ashhutch1997]

The mutants reached absurd level and so did our expectations! I'm almost afraid of what Visma-LAB and Vingo may prepare for the Bonette stage. Maybe going from the gun? (Vingo later: I was holding back before Bonette but my wattometer showed 7 w/kg, I couldn't believe it but Grischa screamed that I could push even more!)

These boys will be glowing, more radioactive than reactor number 4 at Chernobyl.

 

[ppanther92]

Maybe, but why does Pogacar keep bonking if the nutrition is so on point then

Because Vingegaard stresses him. And in stressful situations its still down to the human factor. Does not mean, his nutrition in training is not optimized more than it would have been in the 90s.

But I am with @Monoxidator: all those legitimate improvements are for sure there, but stacked with something else. Because its not only that gradually 90s performances were reached now. Its everyone going super fast for a few years. Landa is better than ever for example.

 

[ElDesordenado]

What do you guys think - is there a genuine chance that Vingegaard will turn this around and win the Tour? Sunday was clearly part of the "plan", and it worked well except Pogacar produced an even crazier performance. Vingegaard now speculates that maybe he can improve even further, and he says he's willing to race with more risk ...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

What do you guys think - is there a genuine chance that Vingegaard will turn this around and win the Tour? Sunday was clearly part of the "plan", and it worked well except Pogacar produced an even crazier performance. Vingegaard now speculates that maybe he can improve even further, and he says he's willing to race with more risk ...

Who knows what Vingo and Visma are preparing for the weekend? He showed superb level on Sunday so I'm definitely not writing him off. Obviously Pogacar is superior now but status quo is never guaranteed in a long stage race. Everyone can have a weaker day.

 

[Froome]

What do you guys think - is there a genuine chance that Vingegaard will turn this around and win the Tour? Sunday was clearly part of the "plan", and it worked well except Pogacar produced an even crazier performance. Vingegaard now speculates that maybe he can improve even further, and he says he's willing to race with more risk ...

This is far from over....even if i had and will have in the future mixed feelings about what is happening, especially since sunday.

 

[Taxus4a]

I dont believe the title of this thread, he is a really good rider, but Pogacar, him and other riders can rech some technology, or science or however you can call it, maybe legal, than other riders no.

For most of riders a crash as Vingegaard has at basque country is for sure bye bye to le Tour.
As Hinault said hif he can fight for Tour I dont understand anything.

But for me is amazing than Van Aert had a crash no so hard, more time to recover, rode a race in Norway at a good level and now He is well at the Tour, 2 time second is not bad as he is not a pure sprinter, but far of that rider that impressed us attacking with the yellow, winning at Ventoux, etc...

But Vingegaard didnt have any race, less time to train, lot of time stopeed and he get his best level ever acording to his words at the second week of le Tour.

it is possible some of that it is becouse an impressive physiology, a super determination, etc,..but people as him as Pogacar has some science or something behind better tahn other riders. Other way is difficult to understand.
I am not critizing, at least no so far, if this is this way...it is just some question and things I want to know and make an opinion once I have an answer.

 

[Taxus4a]

Because Vingegaard stresses him. And in stressful situations its still down to the human factor. Does not mean, his nutrition in training is not optimized more than it would have been in the 90s.

But I am with @Monoxidator: all those legitimate improvements are for sure there, but stacked with something else. Because its not only that gradually 90s performances were reached now. Its everyone going super fast for a few years. Landa is better than ever for example.

I am not sure Landa is better than ever...maybe he is getting his best numbers, but he had very good performances in the past and maybe just with the bikes yopu have the explanations, more altitude camps in his case, and things like that. I know he is used this years to the new methods of nutrition and other things...but anyway they did similar at his previous team.

 

[repoman]

Does blood boosting only work for a short period of time? Isn't that the reason in the past they would have to go from training on EPO to using blood bags half way through because they wouldn't be able to continue doping during the actual tour?

 

[ElDesordenado]

Does blood boosting only work for a short period of time? Isn't that the reason in the past they would have to go from training on EPO to using blood bags half way through because they wouldn't be able to continue doping during the actual tour?

They starting using transfusions again around 2000 because a test had been developed for EPO, and it was too risky to inject that during competition.

As I have understood it, injected EPO becomes undetectable rather quickly though - within four (?) hours or so if I remember correctly. So I suppose there's a calculated risk involved - how likely is it that anti-doping will show up while the drug is detectable? I imagine altitude camps in remote places might play a role in that.

 

[repoman]

They starting using transfusions again around 2000 because a test had been developed for EPO, and it was too risky to inject that during competition.

As I have understood it, injected EPO becomes undetectable rather quickly though - within four (?) hours or so if I remember correctly. So I suppose there's a calculated risk involved - how likely is it that anti-doping will show up while the drug is detectable? I imagine altitude camps in remote places might play a role in that.

Interesting. The WADA rules say they cannot draw blood within 2 hours of racing or training.

 

[Froome]

Talking about the strategy of Visma, going full gas and keep the pressure everyday until Nice. Just stick to plan and see where it takes, the gap can increase but at the same time it can disappear very quickly. La bonette is the place to go all in and see where it takes.

Let's hope his legs continue to improve like happened in the last 2 weeks.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Interesting. The WADA rules say they cannot draw blood within 2 hours of racing or training.

Take what I wrote with a grain of salt - not sure about the four hour thing. Hamilton wrote a lot about the "glow time" - when the drug could be detected - in his book.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Talking about the strategy of Visma, going full gas and keep the pressure everyday until Nice. Just stick to plan and see where it takes, the gap can increase but at the same time it can disappear very quickly. La bonette is the place to go all in and see where it takes.

Let's hope his legs continue to improve like happened in the last 2 weeks.

Wouldn’t be surprised if Visma gave the whole team whatever they gave Vingegaard last year during the second rest day. Things could get even crazier.

 

[Froome]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Visma gave the whole team whatever they gave Vingegaard last year during the second rest day. Things could get even crazier.

Well, they will have to put all of them inhale even more monoxide carbon from the control room Van, because the juice of Emirates is better at the moment, and the juice is not Javier sola.

 

[Nomad]

Does blood boosting only work for a short period of time? Isn't that the reason in the past they would have to go from training on EPO to using blood bags half way through because they wouldn't be able to continue doping during the actual tour?

In the Armstrong interview with Peter Attia, LA says EPO was exclusively used teamwide during the 99 Tour since there wasn't a test for EPO developed yet. However, starting with the 2000 Tour, Postal used blood transfusions in the Tour reinfusing one bag each on the two rest days. The only obstacle he says was to navigate under the 50% Hct limit.

Operation Aderlass was primarily involving transfusions. Athletes would infuse the morning of the race/event & immediately following the competition, withdrawal that same amount of blood that was originally infused. This was the strategy used to circumvent the ABP. Unlike the use of EPO, upon infusing the blood there would be an immediate increase in Hct/Hgb & a significant decline in RET% - which would normally be a red flag on the ABP.

Hondo & Petacchi were involved in Operation Aderlass & neither one tripped their ABP. Hondo even had a codename of "James Bond" labeled on his stored blood bags. Lol

Hondo tells Aderlass trial he doped with Petacchi

German used codename of 'James Bond' for blood doping in 2012

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[SHAD0W93]

Well, they will have to put all of them inhale even more monoxide carbon from the control room Van, because the juice of Emirates is better at the moment, and the juice is not Javier sola.

Who knows if it’s even just the carbon monoxide plus mystery juice. Pogacar, Vingegaard, and Evenepoel all looked to be at their best on stage 15 and I bet 19 and 21 are circled as well.