Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Coffeeplanter]

JV said today was one of his best performances ever - never in doubt really

It was his best, and it is unprecedented. Do I need to remind you that Combloux, the greatest time trial ever ridden, was only a year ago? Despite supposed career or even life threatening injuries he has somehow found another level, insane.

People love to make comparisons with the good ol' days from the 90s and 00s, how the sport has evolved professionally in regards to material, training and nutrition, and to some extend that is true, but it does not explain how someone on an IC bed somehow gained even more %s in less than a year.

These dudes must be huffing more than Snoop.

 

[houtdffan]

I'm really surprised the times from 2004 aren't high, as they went full gas from the bottom. Where's 2007 there were periods of slowing up and looking at eachover.

they only did 2 climbs before in 2007 (though one was Port de Pailheres...)

 

[Ruklaw]

I think the worst thing about the stage yesterday is that it killed off any notion of Visma or Jonas being tactically good racers.

I mean seriously, you towed your direct rival for 5km up a mountain - why? - did it not occur to them to knock it back when they didn't shift Pog?

He'd shown himself stronger than you the day before. Did they really think that much could change overnight?

They should have been managing losses, containing gaps, and looking forward to the watt bombs they no doubt have planned for next Friday (when the race hits 2800m altitude) - that is when they should be attacking Pog - when it really is do or die.

A week out and they spend all their energy setting up Pog for another stage win and another minute of time gain.

Reminded me of a few years back when Ineos would line up on the mountain stages thinking they were still top dogs, only to have a giant cyclocross rider burn them all off his wheel.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think the worst thing about the stage yesterday is that it killed off any notion of Visma or Jonas being tactically good racers.

I mean seriously, you towed your direct rival for 5km up a mountain - why? - did it not occur to them to knock it back when they didn't shift Pog?

He'd shown himself stronger than you the day before. Did they really think that much could change overnight?

They should have been managing losses, containing gaps, and looking forward to the watt bombs they no doubt have planned for next Friday (when the race hits 2800m altitude) - that is when they should be attacking Pog - when it really is do or die.

A week out and they spend all their energy setting up Pog for another stage win and another minute of time gain.

Reminded me of a few years back when Ineos would line up on the mountain stages thinking they were still top dogs, only to have a giant cyclocross rider burn them all off his wheel.

In hindsight that would be the best strategy, but I think what they did was alright. Had to try on a day like this and it couldnt have been done any differently tbh. Kuss would have helped a bit, but the result would still be similar.

Now they just need to take 1 min more on Bonette and Isola I guess, but you had to try. Bonette will for sure be the place to launch it all

 

[ontheroad]

I think the worst thing about the stage yesterday is that it killed off any notion of Visma or Jonas being tactically good racers.

I mean seriously, you towed your direct rival for 5km up a mountain - why? - did it not occur to them to knock it back when they didn't shift Pog?

He'd shown himself stronger than you the day before. Did they really think that much could change overnight?

They should have been managing losses, containing gaps, and looking forward to the watt bombs they no doubt have planned for next Friday (when the race hits 2800m altitude) - that is when they should be attacking Pog - when it really is do or die.

A week out and they spend all their energy setting up Pog for another stage win and another minute of time gain.

Reminded me of a few years back when Ineos would line up on the mountain stages thinking they were still top dogs, only to have a giant cyclocross rider burn them all off his wheel.

If they don't win the Tour it will have had nothing to do with tactics. It very rarely is, as it normally comes down to pure wattages over a 3 week race. They came ultra prepared for this stage in a performance which Vingegaard himself described as his best ever. It was a 'show us what you've got' day from Jumbo to UAE and they discovered that UAE have simply raised the stakes even further. Take Pogacar out of the race and Jumbo have decimated the rest of the field and the narrative would be that it was a miracle performance especially given that he was lying on a hospital bed in ICU only a few months ago. Everything went according to plan but it just got overshadowed by an even greater mutant display.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I think the worst thing about the stage yesterday is that it killed off any notion of Visma or Jonas being tactically good racers.

I mean seriously, you towed your direct rival for 5km up a mountain - why? - did it not occur to them to knock it back when they didn't shift Pog?

He'd shown himself stronger than you the day before. Did they really think that much could change overnight?

They should have been managing losses, containing gaps, and looking forward to the watt bombs they no doubt have planned for next Friday (when the race hits 2800m altitude) - that is when they should be attacking Pog - when it really is do or die.

A week out and they spend all their energy setting up Pog for another stage win and another minute of time gain.

Reminded me of a few years back when Ineos would line up on the mountain stages thinking they were still top dogs, only to have a giant cyclocross rider burn them all off his wheel.

I don't think they had much choice after they had decided to go for it. Vingegaard can't match Pogačar's accelerations (at least not at the moment), so stopping for a bit and then trying to attack him again or simply waiting for Pog to make his move weren't likely to work either. If they looked at the numbers and saw that he was doing very well, I don't think you can blame them for thinking the pace could eventually hurt Pogačar either. They did get rid of Remco, although having him be closer to Pogačar in GC could also have had its possible advantages.

 

[Savant12]

Maybe, he has 3 lungs and with one weakened, he became sort of human-ish.

 

[ElDesordenado]

If they don't win the Tour it will have had nothing to do with tactics. It very rarely is, as it normally comes down to pure wattages over a 3 week race. They came ultra prepared for this stage in a performance which Vingegaard himself described as his best ever. It was a 'show us what you've got' day from Jumbo to UAE and they discovered that UAE have simply raised the stakes even further. Take Pogacar out of the race and Jumbo have decimated the rest of the field and the narrative would be that it was a miracle performance especially given that he was lying on a hospital bed in ICU only a few months ago. Everything went according to plan but it just got overshadowed by an even greater mutant display.

Exactly. I think this was "the plan" Vingegaard had referred to all along: At some point in the latter part of the race bring some crazy w/kg and crush the opposition. Worked out great except their main rival had done even more - probably because he knew what to expect after last year including the alien level ITT.

 

[houtdffan]

'I will not simply accept this result' – Vingegaard vows to battle for Tour de France yellow jersey until Nice

'A lot can still happen. I will never crack mentally. I'll keep fighting with everything I have'

www.cyclingnews.com

we may be upping the ante from antimatter bombs to full on wormhole imploders at this rate

Alien #2 has laid down the challenge. What will Aliens 1 (Pog) and 3 (Remco) do to respond?

 

[DenisMenchov]

I have to say I always thought about Visma having the biggest role in his mutant performance. But only this year I see that Vingegaard himself has that all in mentality. On one hand it's truly remarkable how much effort and I guess pain he can endure, on the other hand it's scary to think what he's actually doing to his body and how far he can take it in this arms race.

 

[zlev11]

yeah i dont think this race is over. 3 minutes is nothing, i have a feeling this thread is gonna get some serious use this week.

 

[AmRacer]

yeah i dont think this race is over. 3 minutes is nothing, i have a feeling this thread is gonna get some serious use this week.

Get ready for an 80 km attack.

 

[zlev11]

Get ready for an 80 km attack.

the base of the Bonette is about 80k to go...

 

[ashhutch1997]

the base of the Bonette is about 80k to go...

Just ashame its not stage 17, then it'd be written in the stars.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'd laugh my ass off if Vingegaard did a Landis in the final week.

This is the mutants battle so expect the unexpected!

 

[Rackham]

the base of the Bonette is about 80k to go...

After he's dropped everyone on la Bonette, gone solo all the way to Isola 2000 & won the stage after making Finestre look like junior racing by comparison, there will still be people who'll say it's all because of tail wind, or because he ate a healthy banana, or that his lower w/kg in the final 50 meters of the stage when he's blowing kisses "clearly showed he was suffering unlike riders in the 1990's".

 

[Krzysztof_O]

After he's dropped everyone on la Bonette, gone solo all the way to Isola 2000 & won the stage after making Finestre look like junior racing by comparison, there will still be people who'll say it's all because of tail wind, or because he ate a healthy banana, or that his lower w/kg in the final 50 meters of the stage when he's blowing kisses "clearly showed he was suffering unlike riders in the 1990's".

The mutants reached absurd level and so did our expectations! I'm almost afraid of what Visma-LAB and Vingo may prepare for the Bonette stage. Maybe going from the gun? (Vingo later: I was holding back before Bonette but my wattometer showed 7 w/kg, I couldn't believe it but Grischa screamed that I could push even more!)

 

[zlev11]

After he's dropped everyone on la Bonette, gone solo all the way to Isola 2000 & won the stage after making Finestre look like junior racing by comparison, there will still be people who'll say it's all because of tail wind, or because he ate a healthy banana, or that his lower w/kg in the final 50 meters of the stage when he's blowing kisses "clearly showed he was suffering unlike riders in the 1990's".

what if he sits on the wheel of a guy doing 7.5 w/kg for 15 minutes? clean

 

[repoman]

I'd laugh my ass off if Vingegaard did a Landis in the final week.

I genuinely hope this happens

 

[houtdffan]

Think there is a better chance of Remco pulling a Landis due to the diesel climbing coming up. Though Vingo may sit on the wheel and win at the line

get ready for the 3 best climbing performance of the century that were set Sunday to be absolutely obliterated BOTH Friday and Saturday by all 3 aliens

 

[Fuglen]

With Vingegaard confirming the watt/kg calculations of the past few stages, we now know that Vingegaard and Pogarcar are physiologically comparable or even superior to the best versions of Pantani, Riis, Armstrong and Contador. The excuses/explanations of better bikes, road surface and weather/wind conditions can be dismissed. So, what is left? Did EPO and blood doping actually not enhance performance? Or has training and nutrition improved performance as much as doping did in the 90´s and 00´s?

 

[Monoxidator]

With Vingegaard confirming the watt/kg calculations of the past few stages, we now know that Vingegaard and Pogarcar are physiologically comparable or even superior to the best versions of Pantani, Riis, Armstrong and Contador. The excuses/explanations of better bikes, road surface and weather/wind conditions can be dismissed. So, what is left? Did EPO and blood doping actually not enhance performance? Or has training and nutrition improved performance as much as doping did in the 90´s and 00´s?

I could buy the training and nutrition closing the gap (at least the nutrition , training hasn’t changed that much materially in that time) but yeah they are stacking the legit gains on top of some other stuff

 

[Fuglen]

I could buy the training and nutrition closing the gap (at least the nutrition , training hasn’t changed that much materially in that time) but yeah they are stacking the legit gains on top of some other stuff

Maybe, but why does Pogacar keep bonking if the nutrition is so on point then

 

[ashhutch1997]

The mutants reached absurd level and so did our expectations! I'm almost afraid of what Visma-LAB and Vingo may prepare for the Bonette stage. Maybe going from the gun? (Vingo later: I was holding back before Bonette but my wattometer showed 7 w/kg, I couldn't believe it but Grischa screamed that I could push even more!)

These boys will be glowing, more radioactive than reactor number 4 at Chernobyl.

 

[ppanther92]

Maybe, but why does Pogacar keep bonking if the nutrition is so on point then

Because Vingegaard stresses him. And in stressful situations its still down to the human factor. Does not mean, his nutrition in training is not optimized more than it would have been in the 90s.

But I am with @Monoxidator: all those legitimate improvements are for sure there, but stacked with something else. Because its not only that gradually 90s performances were reached now. Its everyone going super fast for a few years. Landa is better than ever for example.