Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Cookster15]

Ma Vingegaard knows, it's all down to preparation (no time for back flips in the pool!) Vingegaard's coach Tim Heemskerk spills the beans -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...jonas-vingegaards-development-in-recent-years
"We found out that he can still achieve peak powers during training even at the end of matches [races I assume he means]. And even in a three-week competition. That sets him apart from others. It shows almost no decay. In addition, it can also do this at high altitudes and in the heat," he analyses. "And the fact that he succeeds has everything to do with preparation. With long altitude training periods. Jonas works hard for that. These internships abroad provided an extra step. He is now someone who adapts extremely quickly to different circumstances. Those growth margins are becoming smaller, but there is always room for improvement."
(Ok, even with stuffing yourself with 120 g carbs per hour plus ketones plus ice baths etc etc is it really possible, without "rocket fuel", to be just as good on stage 21 as on stage 1?)

I say these stories are easily debunked. With all this incredible ability they still need to explain Vingegaard’s lack of results before joining Jumbo? If he was as genetically talented as all these claims make out I would expect he have achieved far more by the age of 24 (2021 TdF). I also think he would never have ridden as Roglic’s domestique.

The spin seems to be a) blend the world’s most incredible ever aerobic engine with b) what we were told about Armstrong (training and attention to details) and c) what Sky became infamous for (marginal gains)?

I still don’t buy it and neither do I enjoy it.

 

[Froome]

I say these stories are easily debunked. With all this incredible ability they still need to explain Vingegaard’s lack of results before joining Jumbo? If he was as genetically talented as all these claims make out I would expect he have achieved far more by the age of 24 (2021 TdF). I also think he would never have ridden as Roglic’s domestique.

The spin seems to be a) blend the world’s most incredible ever aerobic engine with b) what we were told about Armstrong (training and attention to details) and c) what Sky became infamous for (marginal gains)?

I still don’t buy it and neither do I enjoy it.

Broken femur in 2017.
He worked in a fish factory until 2018, he wasn't "full time" in cycling.
He was in a modest team from denmark until 2018.

They were not the ideal conditions for improving year by year and showing some results. He started to improve and get some results when Visma signed him in 2019.

They discover him after he beat the climbing record of col de rates on strava. Then, they did some physiological tests that convinced Visma.


Still, some indications by him before he signed for Visma, like in 2016 when he was more faster than Bernal in the mountain ITT, at the sibium cycling tour.

He also won the mountain ITT in the 2018 Giro ciclistico della valle d'aosta mont blanc.


Some riders also mature more later than others.


He is genetically talented like the others best riders. Doping helps but it doesn't make miracles, because average riders like izagirre or lutsenko can take all the doping they want, but they still will not win the Tour.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Broken femur in 2017.
He worked in a fish factory until 2018, he wasn't "full time" in cycling.
He was in a modest team from denmark until 2018.

They were not the ideal conditions for improving year by year and showing some results. He started to improve and get some results when Visma signed him in 2019.

They discover him after he beat the climbing record of col de rates on strava. Then, they did some physiological tests that convinced Visma.


Still, some indications by him before he signed for Visma, like in 2016 when he was more faster than Bernal in the mountain ITT, at the sibium cycling tour.

He also won the mountain ITT in the 2018 Giro ciclistico della valle d'aosta mont blanc.


Some riders also mature more later than others.


He is genetically talented like the others best riders. Doping helps but it doesn't make miracles, because average riders like izagirre or lutsenko can take all the doping they want, but they still will not win the Tour.

1) Cookster15 has been presented with those facts multiple times before, by me for instance, and is not going to buy them this time either.

2) Responding well to doping is also a talent, which Izagirre and Lutsenko might not have as much of (at least not when it comes to GT racing), or perhaps they're just not able/allowed to use the same stuff/amount of it as Vingegaard and others are at the moment.

3) No one knows who would be the best riders in a clean world, but a team like Visma, that has more money (or at the very least seems to be spending it better) than Astana and Cofidis, would also have an advantage in such a scenario.

 

[Cookster15]

1) Cookster15 has been presented with those facts multiple times before, by me for instance, and is not going to buy them this time either.

2) Responding well to doping is also a talent, which Izagirre and Lutsenko might not have as much of (at least not when it comes to GT racing), or perhaps they're just not able/allowed to use the same stuff/amount of it as Vingegaard and others are at the moment.

3) No one knows who would be the best riders in a clean world, but a team like Visma, that has more money (or at the very least seems to be spending it better) than Astana and Cofidis, would also have an advantage in such a scenario.

Well actually, I don't recall that I was ever presented with these claims in one list by anyone? But I do appreciate Froome's reply. In fact the excuses made for Vingegaard prior to Froome's reply only added to my suspicion of him. I suppose similarly as to why many didn't like Chris Froome's rise from nowhere in 2011.

You see, I am not a person who subscribes to the "cycling is entertainment and that is all that matters" mantra. If that was valid doping controls, the UCI passport and WADA banned list would not be required.

Plus, I disagree strongly with your point 2. That is not talent.

 

[Froome]

1) Cookster15 has been presented with those facts multiple times before, by me for instance, and is not going to buy them this time either.

2) Responding well to doping is also a talent, which Izagirre and Lutsenko might not have as much of (at least not when it comes to GT racing), or perhaps they're just not able/allowed to use the same stuff/amount of it as Vingegaard and others are at the moment.

3) No one knows who would be the best riders in a clean world, but a team like Visma, that has more money (or at the very least seems to be spending it better) than Astana and Cofidis, would also have an advantage in such a scenario.

I think if for example lutsenko or izagirre have the same stuff/conditions all year that pogi or jonas have, they still will not be competitive against them, because they genetically/phisically don't have the same talent.

I think everybody can respond well to doping. I cannot see a rider using doping, that doesn't improve later.

 

[Cookster15]

I think everybody can respond well to doping. I cannot see a rider using doping, that doesn't improve later.

Of course, but the science says people with naturally huge aeobic ability get less boost from oxygen vector doping than those who are not so talented. Responding well to doping is NOT a talent.

 

[theyoungest]

I say these stories are easily debunked. With all this incredible ability they still need to explain Vingegaard’s lack of results before joining Jumbo? If he was as genetically talented as all these claims make out I would expect he have achieved far more by the age of 24 (2021 TdF). I also think he would never have ridden as Roglic’s domestique.

The spin seems to be a) blend the world’s most incredible ever aerobic engine with b) what we were told about Armstrong (training and attention to details) and c) what Sky became infamous for (marginal gains)?

I still don’t buy it and neither do I enjoy it.

For all your apparent skepticism it's actually you who expects humans to behave like robots. The reason why Vingegaard wasn't put in a leadership role straightaway is pretty well documented: he couldn't handle the pressure. Not even in the Tour de Pologne. He took the leader's jersey there in his first year on Jumbo, and a day later he succumbed to pure nerves.

 

[Rob5091]

For all your apparent skepticism it's actually you who expects humans to behave like robots. The reason why Vingegaard wasn't put in a leadership role straightaway is pretty well documented: he couldn't handle the pressure. Not even in the Tour de Pologne. He took the leader's jersey there in his first year on Jumbo, and a day later he succumbed to pure nerves.

That's a thing we've never been told about, how Vingegaard went from being a bundle of nerves and not being able to sleep in Poland, to handling the pressure in the Tour. Is it tranquilizers or self-hypnosis or what?

 

[The Clogger]

That's a thing we've never been told about, how Vingegaard went from being a bundle of nerves and not being able to sleep in Poland, to handling the pressure in the Tour. Is it tranquilizers or self-hypnosis or what?

Personal development does not exist. It must be a side effect of doping. What else could it be??

 

[Rob5091]

Personal development does not exist. It must be a side effect of doping. What else could it be??

Maybe someone who knows can explain it, but I've never read about how he overcame it.

 

[samhocking]

He probably has his own phycologist back home he works with. Sepp Kuss was talking about Jumbo not having any in-house psychologists and knowing many riders use their own when at home. Trek & Ineos are the only teams I know with in-house psychologists. I think Dimension Data used to as well.

 

[Froome]

He probably has his own phycologist back home he works with. Sepp Kuss was talking about Jumbo not having any in-house psychologists and knowing many riders use their own when at home. Trek & Ineos are the only teams I know with in-house psychologists. I think Dimension Data used to as well.

I heard something that his wife, is his mental coach.

 

[Rob5091]

This well known article from the Summer of 22 gives some pointers
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...xiety-and-overthinking-to-win-tour-de-france/

Once he made it to the WorldTour, there were practical solutions for his pre-race anxiety. The Dutch team (Jumbo Visma) took him to an academy which helped with mental preparation and coaching in 2019.

Trine helped too. Some of the answers were more simple: a case of listening to his favourite songs or talking with team-mates or team staff about something other than cycling to stop the cycle.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I heard something that his wife, is his mental coach.

And the recipe for his good mental health is a good amount of sex when he is at home. Make miracles!

 

[proffate]

This well known article from the Summer of 22 gives some pointers
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...xiety-and-overthinking-to-win-tour-de-france/

He just listened to his favorite music. I guess he had gotten used to the fish factory where that was a no-no.

 

[Rob5091]

He just listened to his favorite music. I guess he had gotten used to the fish factory where that was a no-no.

I'm still trying to think of an academy that he might have gone to. Maybe it's a New Age "academy" with scented candles, positive thinking, ambient music on a loop and yoga. Have to Google "academy for yellow jersey winners" ...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So how fast will the boys become in 2024? Only two weeks left till we see Skeletor's first fireworks this season. Can't wait to it!

 

[Froome]

So how fast will the boys become in 2024? Only two weeks left till we see Skeletor's first fireworks this season. Can't wait to it!

Vingegaard improved a lot between 2022 and 2023, it would be scary if he improves a lot between 2023 and 2024.

Remco will also improve a lot.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingegaard improved a lot between 2022 and 2023, it would be scary if he improves a lot between 2023 and 2024.

Remco will also improve a lot.

Vingo had two big leaps of performance: 2020->2021 and 2021->2022. I'm not sure he was stronger in the mountains at the Tour 2023 (compared to 2022). He was surely stronger in the ITT and in other races of the season though.

 

[Rob5091]

Team head of performance Mathieu Heijboer
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...sma-lease-a-bike-goes-off-grid-in-the-winter/

We want to win the Tour, the rest is secondary.

 

[Froome]

Vingo had two big leaps of performance: 2020->2021 and 2021->2022. I'm not sure he was stronger in the mountains at the Tour 2023 (compared to 2022). He was surely stronger in the ITT and in other races of the season though.

Les watts du duel Vingegaard/Pogacar sur le TdF 2023, par Frédéric Portoleau

Sur le Tour de France 2023, le duel Vingegaard-Pogacar pour le classement général fut très indécis jusqu'au contre-la-montre de Combloux avec une lutte intense sur chaque étape de montagne. Cet article synthétise les performances réalisées par les 2 coureurs sur ce Tour 2023 ainsi qu'une...

www.chronoswatts.com

The engineer Frederic Portoleau said that Vingegaard improved "5.6%" between 2023 and 2024 after analyzing his perfomances.

Pogacar also improved.

 

[Andre]

The word "methodology" has replaced the word "program"...but same as it ever was.

 

[Rob5091]

Team head of performance Mathieu Heijboer
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...sma-lease-a-bike-goes-off-grid-in-the-winter/

Just as an aside from the Visma article, if the Onecycling circus ever comes to fruition with it's formula 1 type racing, then he'll have to be at 100% for a lot longer then 3 weeks in July.

 

[Froome]

Just as an aside from the Visma article, if the Onecycling circus ever comes to fruition with it's formula 1 type racing, then he'll have to be at 100% for a lot longer then 3 weeks in July.

He did really well between gran camino and the Vuelta last year.

 

[Rob5091]

He did really well between gran camino and the Vuelta last year.

But did he race against Pogacar, Roglic, Remco and all the other top guns from February to October as One Cycling plan?