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Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

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At the Tour he's nigh unbeatable. I really thought some weakness would show itself this year but no, he's on fire again.
Outside of any clinic type issues I really think today was more on Pogacar than Vingo. The man just can't sit down. He still had 2 teammates in a group of 8 or 9 when he decided to attack with around 35 k's to go. Entertaining for sure but he would have probably gained 7 sec. on Vingo instead of losing 1, while saving himself for the harder work ahead if he would have had his guys ride on the front all the way and played mountain sprinter for the boni's.
 
Unlike Vingegaard, he wasn't scheduled to do the race prior to the crash and is also more focused on the Olympics, but we'll see if he will reach a higher level before the end of the Tour.

two years ago Wout was good enough to win the green jersey and 3 stages, Ive not seen him contest a single sprint, or stage win yet. theres prepping for the Olympics and theres doing whatever Wouts doing this year.
 
Outside of any clinic type issues I really think today was more on Pogacar than Vingo. The man just can't sit down. He still had 2 teammates in a group of 8 or 9 when he decided to attack with around 35 k's to go. Entertaining for sure but he would have probably gained 7 sec. on Vingo instead of losing 1, while saving himself for the harder work ahead if he would have had his guys ride on the front all the way and played mountain sprinter for the boni's.
I do think Pog went way too early to win the stage, and wasnt "intelligent" about it, but maybe he was suckered into thinking Vingo wasnt on his level, lesson learned, lets see how he plays the rest of it
 
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If he wins, it would be one of the best comebacks every, like Pantani in Alpe d'huez.

this wont play as well to anyone outside of the UK as you wont get the cultural reference to it, but there was a famous darts match many many years ago, when an equally famous UK darts commentator once said after a stunning comeback by one of the players who looked out of the contest and went on to win "It's the greatest comeback since Lazarus."
 
Outside of any clinic type issues I really think today was more on Pogacar than Vingo. The man just can't sit down. He still had 2 teammates in a group of 8 or 9 when he decided to attack with around 35 k's to go. Entertaining for sure but he would have probably gained 7 sec. on Vingo instead of losing 1, while saving himself for the harder work ahead if he would have had his guys ride on the front all the way and played mountain sprinter for the boni's.
Yes, I think to quote the old saying about kids and candy - his eyes are bigger than his stomach. Or perhaps another cliche - his ego is writing cheques his body can't cash :p Seriously though, he nickels and dimes himself to death.
 
Ummmmm .... errrrr.....

Sucking?
As a Wout fanboy (raced cyclocross for years myself, and road for more years, also MTB since they invented them, so maybe I should be a MVdP fan? nah he's too smug, although I was an Adri Van der Poel fan, but I digress) I take exception to your characterization. Wout is behind where he was 2 years ago, but 2 years ago he was exceptional. He has done a few sprints, won the field sprint 5 sec. behind Bardet on the first stage, where he said he was happily surprised with his level. He almost singlehandedly got Jasper relegated on stage 6 (?) and was I think, vintage Wout on the gravel stage where he would smash it on the front for multi k's get dropped when there was an attack and then come right back for more smashing when the pace dropped. Clearly he's missing a step, I think (having always been one) that big guys need a lot more training than little guys so maybe that's got something to do with the difference between Wout and Vingo in terms of level after injuries?
 
As a Wout fanboy (raced cyclocross for years myself, and road for more years, also MTB since they invented them, so maybe I should be a MVdP fan? nah he's too smug, although I was an Adri Van der Poel fan, but I digress) I take exception to your characterization. Wout is behind where he was 2 years ago, but 2 years ago he was exceptional. He has done a few sprints, won the field sprint 5 sec. behind Bardet on the first stage, where he said he was happily surprised with his level. He almost singlehandedly got Jasper relegated on stage 6 (?) and was I think, vintage Wout on the gravel stage where he would smash it on the front for multi k's get dropped when there was an attack and then come right back for more smashing when the pace dropped. Clearly he's missing a step, I think (having always been one) that big guys need a lot more training than little guys so maybe that's got something to do with the difference between Wout and Vingo in terms of level after injuries?
Believe it or not, I'm a pretty big fan of Wout. Right now I think he would agree compared to his regular level, he is sucking. I'm not really entirely sure why his recovery is slower than his colleague's, that could be because of all sorts of factors including clinical factors about ViVi's recovery.
 
The only hope is that he runs out of base conditioning a similar way as how Pogacar was exposed on Loze last year. Otherwise its very difficult to accept based upon anything known about athletic recovery after the injuries and training interruption he suffered.
Yea, but it was Pogacar going for every sprint and attacking as he does without calculating that put him in a position to explode, when Jonas' superior long distance strength came to the fore. Now just look at how Vingegaard is racing in this Tour. He follows, waits, races prudently and if he improves will land the KO punch deep into the race. I'm assuming similar doping programs for both. Vingegaard is just better at planning his moves and riding to his strengths.
 
Outside of any clinic type issues I really think today was more on Pogacar than Vingo. The man just can't sit down. He still had 2 teammates in a group of 8 or 9 when he decided to attack with around 35 k's to go. Entertaining for sure but he would have probably gained 7 sec. on Vingo instead of losing 1, while saving himself for the harder work ahead if he would have had his guys ride on the front all the way and played mountain sprinter for the boni's.
I think Pogacar took the right decision. Attacking just before the top. Taking enough seconds to be the first to start the descent. As a (far) better descender (and taking a few risks), he increased his lead to 30/40 seconds. Which in normal circumstances, with two short climbs to come (Vingegaard coming back a few seconds) but also two descents (Poga gaining a few seconds) should always be enough to stay ahead.

But then the unforeseen happened.

1. Vingegaard is in much better shape than is thought possible physiologically, sportingly and generally medically.
2. Poga felt a little hungry during the final and faded. Something that became even clearer after arrival when he gorged himself on solid food. Instead of the normal recovery drink.

Vingegaard's incredible physical condition won't change much as long as he gets his undetectable sauce. His shape could even improve. But Poga will change tactics. Also helped by the fact that the next mountain stages end uphill. So, Poga won't have to attack from far to start a descent first. He will attack uphill at less than a km of the finish. Just in order to take a few seconds and eventually boni seconds. I don't think Vingegaard will be able to attack himself the next two mountainstages. But he could take time back the last three day of the Tour (being than in a better shape).
 
What you wanted to say @shadowrider ? You quoted my post, but you didn't write nothing.
"The sport is full of doping" is of course not an excuse. Therefore, why not stop doping controls? Then everyone can be doped. I gradually have the impression that doping controls are no longer there from a sporting point of view, but only to curb extreme and dangerous forms of doping. To avoid sporters being killed. But sooner or later that will happen and we will have deaths. If not during the sporting career, then in the years afterwards.
 
I thought Pogi was the new Pantani, or is that only in Italy?

From death bed to stage winner is definitley "Lazarus like". (Netflix will be loving it!)
Pogacar and Pantani have nothing in common (D factor aside), neither in personality or racing style. Italians actually compared more Bernal with Pantani, back when he won the Giro, but I didn't see them do the same with Pogi this year.

Vingegaard and Pantani are similar in the fact that they are climbing mutants and I guess a bit introverts, but while Pantani had a certain fragility in him, he was way more charismatic than skeletor.
 
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Pogacar and Pantani have nothing in common (D factor aside), neither in personality or racing style. Italians actually compared more Bernal with Pantani, back when he won the Giro, but I didn't see them do the same with Pogi this year.

Vingegaard and Pantani are similar in the fact that they are climbing mutants and I guess a bit introverts, but while Pantani had a certain fragility in him, he was way more charismatic than skeletor.
Pogi and Pantani attack everywhere while vingo most of the time suck wheels
 
Pogacar and Pantani have nothing in common (D factor aside), neither in personality or racing style. Italians actually compared more Bernal with Pantani, back when he won the Giro, but I didn't see them do the same with Pogi this year.

Vingegaard and Pantani are similar in the fact that they are climbing mutants and I guess a bit introverts, but while Pantani had a certain fragility in him, he was way more charismatic than skeletor.
Agreed. It's actually hard to think of two riders who are further apart than Vingegaard and Pantani. I remember Pantani as erratic; Vingegaard is completely the opposite. Pantani was also a solo artist, riding for a weak Mercatone Uno, whereas Vingegaard is a team player in a very strong Visma team. Pantani was the most explosive rider I've seen; Vingegaard is, in terms of conservative riding style and last year's TT dominance, more like a skeleton version of Indurain. They share those crazy w/kg numbers, but that's about it.
 
Pogi and Pantani attack everywhere while vingo most of the time suck wheels

To be fair to Vingegaard, Pogačar attacks so much that he doesn't really get many chances when he also has to recover in-between. Also since he's often the only guy who can/tries to respond, he at least attacks all the riders who can't follow at all. And as we know from Pogi-free races, he has no problem with riding aggressively when he's confident in his own abilities.