Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Rackham]

The last sentence is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read in this forum, well played

You're welcome.

It's the time of year for cycling ridiculousness after all so I'm just doing my part.

Back on topic, that was a nice timely resurrection of our favorite Danish hero today as well. Silly Quick Step probably have amnesia or something & forgot this rider recuperates faster than anyone Visma have ever seen (their words).

Watching Evenepoel actually attack Vinge on a climb... was something.

 

[Cookster15]

Was seriously injured in a hospital bed just three months ago. Now attacking MTFs on stage 20 of the Tour de France. Equally absurd as anything we have seen Pogacar do.

 

[Netserk]

Was seriously injured in a hospital bed just three months ago. Now attacking MTFs on stage 20 of the Tour de France. Equally absurd as anything we have seen Pogacar do.

After what he did on Plateau de Beille, his third week (including today) has been underwhelming.

 

[Cookster15]

After what he did on Plateau de Beille, his third week (including today) has been underwhelming.

I think you expected too much.

Not even known Clinic techniques can make up for 3rd week recovery when you lose as much training time as Vingegaard did. Despite his massive injuries on April 4, he is second on GC and attacked on the final mountain on stage 20. I think he will do a very good TT. So I would not describe his performance as underwhelming - to the contrary. Vingo and Visma played their cards as best as they could in the hope it might pull off. But human physiology was their reality check.

 

[magliaroz]

After what he did on Plateau de Beille, his third week (including today) has been underwhelming.

I half-expected him to drop Pogi again today, just to send a message for next year... But Giannetti did his homeworl right this time.

 

[ontheroad]

Already looking forward to see what they cook up for next year in this nuclear war between Visma and UAE. Even though Vingegaard rode a remarkable Tour they got their arses handed to them by Pogacar apart from one sprint stage victory.

It’s hard to see how anybody can remotely compete with this super mutant version of Pogacar but if anyone can, Visma and Vingegaard can. They have 12 months to find the magic cocktail.

 

[noob]

Vinge is a "sensitive monster"... i.e. he cries a lot.

As participants in this reality tv show called the Tour de France, people chose their favorites & get influenced by all sorts of stuff.

Some of it is real, some is just part of the marketing. I mean I won't even go into the rider threads in the main forum right now because people (on all sides, i.e. whether they're pro or anti certain riders) all seem to be buying into the spectacle in some way or another.

But with regards Vingegaard, imagine if Pog had DNF'd or not been at this level? We would have been bombarded with propaganda about Vinge's miraculous recovery from the ICU & the images of his tears & family hugs as he wins the Tour would have been shoved down our throats, mercilessly.

Vingegaard is basically the Susan Boyle of pro-cycling whilst Pog is the Spice Girls, i.e. both aimed at different audiences... but are equally full of sh*t.

Jonas certainly have won fans this season from being the underdog! Never thought of him as Susan Boyle though 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Since I am more animalistic than most humans I also easier see when humans fake stuff. The crying yesterday was real. The crying after first stage I still haven't watched as I assume it wold be fake and if so I would cringe.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Already looking forward to see what they cook up for next year in this nuclear war between Visma and UAE. Even though Vingegaard rode a remarkable Tour they got their arses handed to them by Pogacar apart from one sprint stage victory.

It’s hard to see how anybody can remotely compete with this super mutant version of Pogacar but if anyone can, Visma and Vingegaard can. They have 12 months to find the magic cocktail.

Crazy to see Pog taking 7 sec on Vinge in a sprint (!). He flew past him.

Next year: We'll never know how crazy Vinge would have been without the crash. Maybe even better than this year's Pog? It's mind blowing that he can finish 2nd under these circumstances; before stage 14/15 I genuinely thought we'd see a repeat of '22 and '23, but Pog was just too good.

What do you guys think - will Vinge stay motivated and come back stronger? Or will we start (slowly) seeing a shift in the Visma hierarchy? Could Jorgenson be a future GC guy despite his huge body frame?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

They have 12 months to find the magic cocktail.

They've already found it - see Vingo's PdB performance. Obviously Vingo with normal preparation should be able to perform more consistently throught the race. Another epic battle incoming in 2025, methinks.

 

[ontheroad]

Crazy to see Pog taking 7 sec on Vinge in a sprint (!). He flew past him.

Next year: We'll never know how crazy Vinge would have been without the crash. Maybe even better than this year's Pog? It's mind blowing that he can finish 2nd under these circumstances; before stage 14/15 I genuinely thought we'd see a repeat of '22 and '23, but Pog was just too good.

What do you guys think - will Vinge stay motivated and come back stronger? Or will we start (slowly) seeing a shift in the Visma hierarchy? Could Jorgenson be a future GC guy despite his huge body frame?

If he had attacked over the top of Vingegaard with 3km to go I feel as though he could have taken the best part of another minute such was the acceleration over the last 200 metres.

Jorgensen has taken a big leap forward since signing for Visma but he is a long way off the level required to compete for a Tour. Vingegaard has performed at a very high level throughout so there is no way they won’t give him another shot at redemption in 12 months time. But they will need to find something extra special because we’ve never seen anything like the performances Pogacar has produced in this Tour.

 

[ontheroad]

They've already found it - see Vingo's PdB performance. Obviously Vingo with normal preparation should be able to perform more consistently throught the race. Another epic battle incoming in 2025, methinks.

It was a special performance on PDB no doubt and it was planned to be the day that Visma took control of the Tour. But they learned that the one thing they can’t control is the level of the opposition.

I still find it very difficult to believe that a fully prepared Vingegaard would have competed with Pogacar given the watts he put out and the climbing times he registered in this race. I do expect them to ramp it up again with Vingegaard next year though in this never ending arms race.

 

[noob]

I don't buy into the idea that a non injured Jonas would be behind Pog. I don't even understand Jonas reactions tbh. He is absolutely not supposed to be able to compete even at the level he is now. It's just weird. So I'm not gonna be blind sided to believe Pog is really way ahead. It doesn't make sense.

 

[ontheroad]

I don't buy into the idea that a non injured Jonas would be behind Pog. I don't even understand Jonas reactions tbh. He is absolutely not supposed to be able to compete even at the level he is now. It's just weird. So I'm not gonna be blind sided to believe Pog is really way ahead. It doesn't make sense.

Peak Vingegaard from 2023 does not beat Pogacar in this form imo. Putting out 6.7 watts/kg for a 40 minute climb is the new gold standard set by Pogacar in this Tour. He has never produced those sort of numbers before.

Probably Vingegaard would have been closer without the injury but then we don’t know what level of TUEs, if any, he was granted before the race either.

 

[Froome]

I don't buy into the idea that a non injured Jonas would be behind Pog. I don't even understand Jonas reactions tbh. He is absolutely not supposed to be able to compete even at the level he is now. It's just weird. So I'm not gonna be blind sided to believe Pog is really way ahead. It doesn't make sense.

He is pushing very good numbers with 6 weeks of good training, unfortunately he couldn't have a better peak because of the injuries he sustained.

He lost muscular mass, explosion and endurance. For some reason he is more light due to the injuries. It's a miracle being on the shape he was and not fade during all the Tour. He would be at least 5% better without the severe injuries. Of course he would be at least 5 minutes more faster without a pneumotorax, collarbone and broken ribs.


Nobody would be able to achieve this shape after what he went through, even with some "help".

 

[Monoxidator]

I don't buy into the idea that a non injured Jonas would be behind Pog. I don't even understand Jonas reactions tbh. He is absolutely not supposed to be able to compete even at the level he is now. It's just weird. So I'm not gonna be blind sided to believe Pog is really way ahead. It doesn't make sense.

Mr 62% Pog is going to give way to Mr 64% Vingegaard and then who knows what happens the year after. Maybe some more heart failures. Not looking forward to the Nils Politt heart attack

 

[noob]

He is pushing very good numbers with 6 weeks of good training, unfortunately he couldn't have a better peak because of the injuries he sustained.

He lost muscular mass, explosion and endurance. For some reason he is more light due to the injuries. It's a miracle being on the shape he was and not fade during all the Tour. He would be at least 5% better without the severe injuries. Of course he would be at least 5 minutes more faster without a pneumotorax, collarbone and broken ribs.


Nobody would be able to achieve this shape after what he went through, even with some "help".

Yes logically. A fully functioning pair of lungs 🫁 > TUE, least he's a full on cyborg. And I don't think he is a cyborg after all.

 

[Rackham]

Jonas certainly have won fans this season from being the underdog! Never thought of him as Susan Boyle though 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Since I am more animalistic than most humans I also easier see when humans fake stuff. The crying yesterday was real. The crying after first stage I still haven't watched as I assume it wold be fake and if so I would cringe.

I simply have a natural distaste for sugarcoated/curated narratives about professional athletes & how 'wonderful' they are.

A simple glance at social media & we see post after post from influencers, ex-riders & pseudo journalists featuring pictures of these riders either smiling, crying or hugging each other after yesterday's stage along with commentary like (I'll paraphrase) "great respect between champions!" "so emotional I'm also crying!" "what a champion!" "the GOATS!" "Jonas is a wonderful family man!" etc.

Then there's the sarcastic comments from the likes of Dan Lloyd & co with their passive aggressive attacks on naysayers (like defending Pog with a weird analogy about "you don't gift a watch so why gift a stage?") which isn't even exclusive to Pog either, i.e. all these people are simply gatekeepers & cheerleaders of the bubble of pro-cycling & will stop at nothing to defend & aggrandize the actors of this sport... because it feeds their own self interests as well.

But let's call a spade a spade here: they're doped + they're also micromanaged by their teams on the road (the DS in Vingegaard's case does his thinking for him) & off the road with publicists & media pros handling their public image.

It's like fans get p*ssed off when we mention the man behind the curtain because they'd rather live in a pretend fairy-tale.

 

[fbjim]

everyone is fake when you shove a camera into their face. acting a certain way to be likable is, depending on how you look at it, either manipulative, or just basic social skills.

what i mean is, caring too much about authenticity is a bit of a fool's errand.

 

[Rackham]

everyone is fake when you shove a camera into their face. acting a certain way to be likable is, depending on how you look at it, either manipulative, or just basic social skills.

what i mean is, caring too much about authenticity is a bit of a fool's errand.

Sure. It's all part of the problem though: fans become fans of pro-athletes based on their performances & their image. These fans become fanboys who defend aforementioned athletes against everything. Rinse-repeat. Social media has totally exacerbated this issue by creating a false proximity between the fans & the pros. It's the same in every sport.

So when we're here in the clinic saying 'hang on a minute, something is seriously wonky with the performance data in this Tour', we're swimming against an absolutely massive current consisting of everything & everyone in the milieu.

 

[Coffeeplanter]

I'm glad we're not buying *into this "poor guy" narrative here. He would shatter TdF every other year. it's just that Pogacar is on a different planet.

Absolutely right, Vingegaard should be in the crosshairs as much as anyone. However, I fear he will dodge most if not all of the smoke. The man was already flying mighty close to the sun throughout 2023 and had arguably the greatest performance ever to that point (Combloux), but despite being bedridden in the IC for weeks found another gear. We're not talking margins, we're talking levels. That is not normal human behaviour.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Absolutely right, Vingegaard should be in the crosshairs as much as anyone. However, I fear he will dodge most if not all of the smoke. The man was already flying mighty close to the sun throughout 2023 and had arguably the greatest performance ever to that point (Combloux), but despite being bedridden in the IC for weeks found another gear. We're not talking margins, we're talking levels. That is not normal human behaviour.

According to Vayer, the 2023 TdF performance by Vingegaard was the first time since Pantani '98 that a TdF winner has hit what he calls 'mutant level'. And Pogacar has now built on that to produce w/kg numbers even greater than Indurain '95.

 

[Danskebjerge]

Sure. It's all part of the problem though: fans become fans of pro-athletes based on their performances & their image. These fans become fanboys who defend aforementioned athletes against everything. Rinse-repeat. Social media has totally exacerbated this issue by creating a false proximity between the fans & the pros. It's the same in every sport.

So when we're here in the clinic saying 'hang on a minute, something is seriously wonky with the performance data in this Tour', we're swimming against an absolutely massive current consisting of everything & everyone in the milieu.

It's basically only public German television that has taken a significant stance on the doping issue. First by stopping transmissions from the Tour - after the Telekom scandals - and later by making documentaries about doping fraud (in Russia etc). It seems that no commercial media are going to do similar stuff.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Another great TT by Vinge, even though Pog is now in a league of his own. But does anyone else think he looks like a frog when riding? Legs bouncing out to the sides. Same thing last year in his alien TT. He rides super fast, but it's almost as if his legs can't keep up. For all the talk about aerodynamics, he looks pretty uncoordinated to me ...

 

[Froome]

Another great TT by Vinge, even though Pog is now in a league of his own. But does anyone else think he looks like a frog when riding? Legs bouncing out to the sides. Same thing last year in his alien TT. He rides super fast, but it's almost as if his legs can't keep up. For all the talk about aerodynamics, he looks pretty uncoordinated to me ...

It's quite normal after what happened some months ago.

 

[SHAD0W93]

It's quite normal after what happened some months ago.

Was it normal last year too?