Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Rackham]

Jonas certainly have won fans this season from being the underdog! Never thought of him as Susan Boyle though 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Since I am more animalistic than most humans I also easier see when humans fake stuff. The crying yesterday was real. The crying after first stage I still haven't watched as I assume it wold be fake and if so I would cringe.

I simply have a natural distaste for sugarcoated/curated narratives about professional athletes & how 'wonderful' they are.

A simple glance at social media & we see post after post from influencers, ex-riders & pseudo journalists featuring pictures of these riders either smiling, crying or hugging each other after yesterday's stage along with commentary like (I'll paraphrase) "great respect between champions!" "so emotional I'm also crying!" "what a champion!" "the GOATS!" "Jonas is a wonderful family man!" etc.

Then there's the sarcastic comments from the likes of Dan Lloyd & co with their passive aggressive attacks on naysayers (like defending Pog with a weird analogy about "you don't gift a watch so why gift a stage?") which isn't even exclusive to Pog either, i.e. all these people are simply gatekeepers & cheerleaders of the bubble of pro-cycling & will stop at nothing to defend & aggrandize the actors of this sport... because it feeds their own self interests as well.

But let's call a spade a spade here: they're doped + they're also micromanaged by their teams on the road (the DS in Vingegaard's case does his thinking for him) & off the road with publicists & media pros handling their public image.

It's like fans get p*ssed off when we mention the man behind the curtain because they'd rather live in a pretend fairy-tale.

 

[fbjim]

everyone is fake when you shove a camera into their face. acting a certain way to be likable is, depending on how you look at it, either manipulative, or just basic social skills.

what i mean is, caring too much about authenticity is a bit of a fool's errand.

 

[Rackham]

everyone is fake when you shove a camera into their face. acting a certain way to be likable is, depending on how you look at it, either manipulative, or just basic social skills.

what i mean is, caring too much about authenticity is a bit of a fool's errand.

Sure. It's all part of the problem though: fans become fans of pro-athletes based on their performances & their image. These fans become fanboys who defend aforementioned athletes against everything. Rinse-repeat. Social media has totally exacerbated this issue by creating a false proximity between the fans & the pros. It's the same in every sport.

So when we're here in the clinic saying 'hang on a minute, something is seriously wonky with the performance data in this Tour', we're swimming against an absolutely massive current consisting of everything & everyone in the milieu.

 

[Coffeeplanter]

I'm glad we're not buying *into this "poor guy" narrative here. He would shatter TdF every other year. it's just that Pogacar is on a different planet.

Absolutely right, Vingegaard should be in the crosshairs as much as anyone. However, I fear he will dodge most if not all of the smoke. The man was already flying mighty close to the sun throughout 2023 and had arguably the greatest performance ever to that point (Combloux), but despite being bedridden in the IC for weeks found another gear. We're not talking margins, we're talking levels. That is not normal human behaviour.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Absolutely right, Vingegaard should be in the crosshairs as much as anyone. However, I fear he will dodge most if not all of the smoke. The man was already flying mighty close to the sun throughout 2023 and had arguably the greatest performance ever to that point (Combloux), but despite being bedridden in the IC for weeks found another gear. We're not talking margins, we're talking levels. That is not normal human behaviour.

According to Vayer, the 2023 TdF performance by Vingegaard was the first time since Pantani '98 that a TdF winner has hit what he calls 'mutant level'. And Pogacar has now built on that to produce w/kg numbers even greater than Indurain '95.

 

[Danskebjerge]

Sure. It's all part of the problem though: fans become fans of pro-athletes based on their performances & their image. These fans become fanboys who defend aforementioned athletes against everything. Rinse-repeat. Social media has totally exacerbated this issue by creating a false proximity between the fans & the pros. It's the same in every sport.

So when we're here in the clinic saying 'hang on a minute, something is seriously wonky with the performance data in this Tour', we're swimming against an absolutely massive current consisting of everything & everyone in the milieu.

It's basically only public German television that has taken a significant stance on the doping issue. First by stopping transmissions from the Tour - after the Telekom scandals - and later by making documentaries about doping fraud (in Russia etc). It seems that no commercial media are going to do similar stuff.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Another great TT by Vinge, even though Pog is now in a league of his own. But does anyone else think he looks like a frog when riding? Legs bouncing out to the sides. Same thing last year in his alien TT. He rides super fast, but it's almost as if his legs can't keep up. For all the talk about aerodynamics, he looks pretty uncoordinated to me ...

 

[Froome]

Another great TT by Vinge, even though Pog is now in a league of his own. But does anyone else think he looks like a frog when riding? Legs bouncing out to the sides. Same thing last year in his alien TT. He rides super fast, but it's almost as if his legs can't keep up. For all the talk about aerodynamics, he looks pretty uncoordinated to me ...

It's quite normal after what happened some months ago.

 

[SHAD0W93]

It's quite normal after what happened some months ago.

Was it normal last year too?

 

[Red Rick]

So who wants to tell me again Pogacar did a great ITT in Combloux?

 

[Froome]

Was it normal last year too?

Don't compare a injury in the wrist with these injuries.

 

[Froome]

So who wants to tell me again Pogacar did a great ITT in Combloux?

Half of the gap today was on the descent.

Nevertheless, Plateau de beille was super impressive by him.

 

[topcat]

So who wants to tell me again Pogacar did a great ITT in Combloux?

Me

 

[SHAD0W93]

Don't compare a injury in the wrist with these injuries.

Vingegaard didn’t have an injury last year yet still rode like this.

 

[Cookster15]

It's quite normal after what happened some months ago.

Some people are claiming Vingegaard was devastated after today. Tell me that isn't true after how he performed and what he has come back from? He should be very pleased with his performance.

 

[Froome]

Vingegaard didn’t have an injury last year yet still rode like this.

You can't compare the perfomances from the previous year to this year. If Remco did the perfomances this year in the Tour 2023, he would have won the Tour 2023. Obviously Vingegaard couldn't achieve a better peak because of what happened in April.

It doesn't mean that can't take away what Pogacar and his team achieved. They surpassed Visma this year in the most nevralgic areas, doping programme, equipment, organization, plus the fact everything went perfect without bad luck to Pogacar and Emirates, the opposite of the competition.

Next year, the opposite can happen very easily.

 

[Froome]

Some people are claiming Vingegaard was devastated after today. Tell me that isn't true after how he performed and what he has come back from? He should be very pleased with his performance.

It was a miracle what he achieved. I really doubt some rider in the world could achieve what he achieved in this Tour in terms of shape after what happened in April. Simply, Pogacar could achieve a better level than last year, everything went perfect for him.

 

[SHAD0W93]

You can't compare the perfomances from the previous year to this year. If Remco did the perfomances this year in the Tour 2023, he would have won the Tour 2023. Obviously Vingegaard couldn't achieve a better peak because of what happened in April.

It doesn't mean that can't take away what Pogacar and his team achieved. They surpassed Visma this year in the most nevralgic areas, doping programme, equipment, organization, plus the fact everything went perfect without bad luck to Pogacar and Emirates, the opposite of the competition.

Next year, the opposite can happen very easily.

I’m not comparing performances, you are now. I’m comparing what the original post was talking about, Vingegaard’s riding style. Which is what it sounded like you were talking about at first. The riding style is the same as last year even though he didn’t have an injury last year.

 

[Froome]

I’m not comparing performances, you are now. I’m comparing what the original post was talking about, Vingegaard’s riding style. Which is what it sounded like you were talking about at first. The riding style is the same as last year even though he didn’t have an injury last year.

What you mean by riding style?

 

[SHAD0W93]

What you mean by riding style?

But does anyone else think he looks like a frog when riding? Legs bouncing out to the sides. Same thing last year in his alien TT. He rides super fast, but it's almost as if his legs can't keep up. For all the talk about aerodynamics, he looks pretty uncoordinated to me ...

I haven’t seen this TT yet but what’s described in the same thing as last year. That’s Vingegaard’s riding style.

 

[Froome]

I haven’t seen this TT yet but what’s described in the same thing as last year. That’s Vingegaard’s riding style.

Maybe, but the power is not there, and that is more important.

 

[Cookster15]

It was a miracle what he achieved. I really doubt some rider in the world could achieve what he achieved in this Tour in terms of shape after what happened in April. Simply, Pogacar could achieve a better level than last year, everything went perfect for him.

Yes but tbh, Vingegaard's performance is at least as suspect than even Pogacar's thermonuclear level knowing what Vingo has come back from just three months ago.

But IMO the arrogance and sour grapes displayed by both Richard Plugge and Merijn Zeeman during this tour suggest they were confident they had Pogacar's measure despite what happened in April. I actually have more sympathy for Jonas that he can perform riding for such people.

 

[Froome]

Yes but tbh, Vingegaard's performance is at least as suspect than even Pogacar's thermonuclear level knowing what Vingo has come back from just three months ago.

But IMO the arrogance and sour grapes displayed by both Richard Plugge and Merijn Zeeman during this tour suggest they were confident they had Pogacar's measure despite what happened in April. I actually have more sympathy for Jonas that he can perform riding for such people.

I never said Visma is clean.

In terms of arrogance, your vision it depends what rider/team you support. Sometimes we are more "blind" to those we support. There was a lot of arrogant statements by pogacar, remco, UAE, not just Visma.

 

[snipeheem]

I never said Visma is clean.

In terms of arrogance, it depends what rider/team you support. There was a lot of arrogant statements by pogacar, remco, UAE, not just Visma.

Visma arrogance is on another level

 

[Cookster15]

I never said Visma is clean.

In terms of arrogance, your vision it depends what rider/team you support. Sometimes we are more "blind" to those we support. There was a lot of arrogant statements by pogacar, remco, UAE, not just Visma.

The arrogance is why I don't like Visma. I am not nationally attached to Pogacar and don't sense arrogance from UAE although Gianetti obviously has his haters here.

Visma clearly believed they had it all worked out despite Gianetti and knew Pogacar's watts and recovery. Nobody knows this and on PdB Visma got spooned and then again on Isola 2000. I thought we learned after Sky circa 2012 that cycling cannot be controlled like an algorithm.