Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

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Jul 18, 2023
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Today's Vingegaards' performance made me think of the mRNA printing technologies.

The same that was used recently for the first time in the creation of the pfizer and moderna covid vaccines.

Where the actually coded, and using DNA printers and chemical processes in the end produced RNA, that once in the body would find certain cells that using the encoded information in the RNA would produce the spike proteins that would resemble the COVID ones, so that the immune system can be educated.

https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/

If you have enough research budget and will, what stops you from experimenting and researching printing mRNA that would on a very short time optimise the delivery of recovery or energy material to the muscles ?

And if you google for current anti doping measures and detection of all sorts of gene doping – it is all at the very early stages, very limited and essentially close to none.

To catch something so specific one would need to go the route of doing WGS on daily blood samples, looking at whatever weird RNA remnants are still floating in the blood and even then it might be uncatchable if it is was well encoded.

So with that said I don't think any of the Vinegaard current WADA tests would blink now and even in the future.

Another approach to somewhat solve this or at least get it from ridiculous levels is to force everyone to ride with a power meter and a heart rate monitor and make this info public and live for all.
 
Today's Vingegaards' performance made me think of the mRNA printing technologies.

The same that was used recently for the first time in the creation of the pfizer and moderna covid vaccines.

Where the actually coded, and using DNA printers and chemical processes in the end produced RNA, that once in the body would find certain cells that using the encoded information in the RNA would produce the spike proteins that would resemble the COVID ones, so that the immune system can be educated.

https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/

If you have enough research budget and will, what stops you from experimenting and researching printing mRNA that would on a very short time optimise the delivery of recovery or energy material to the muscles ?

And if you google for current anti doping measures and detection of all sorts of gene doping – it is all at the very early stages, very limited and essentially close to none.

To catch something so specific one would need to go the route of doing WGS on daily blood samples, looking at whatever weird RNA remnants are still floating in the blood and even then it might be uncatchable if it is was well encoded.

So with that said I don't think any of the Vinegaard current WADA tests would blink now and even in the future.

Another approach to somewhat solve this or at least get it from ridiculous levels is to force everyone to ride with a power meter and a heart rate monitor and make this info public and live for all.
😂 Best first post in the history of the forum
 
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"I'm sorry Mr. Policeman, my speedometer had very very high numbers, even when I was coasting. I thought it was broken, so I keep pushing the pedal"

I'm going to try this one next time
It might actually work:sunglasses: I've been riding in the backseat of someone who got away with speading 50 km/h above the speed limit(170 km/h on a 120 km/h road) in a car that had a driving ban. The driver just talked himself out of it since there was no proof. Police just followed us to park the car on a gaz station but nothing else happened. :laughing:
 
Jul 18, 2023
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Armstrong never had a performance that was even remotely close to what Vinegard did today. It`s beyong anything ever imaginable. The amount of watts he must have produced today (asuming no motor) both in absolute numbers, as well as in comparison to the rest of the competition is simply ridiclious beyond the limits of nature.
Armstrongs biggest TT victory in his career (in the tour) was by 1 minute 24 seconds but this was over 61km not 22 km... This margin of victory is absolutely unheard of and this is after Pogacar already destroyed everyone else by over a minute himself. To put that into more context, most of Lances ITT wins were by a little more than 1 minute or less and almost all of them were over 1 hour long time trials not a half hour...
 
Armstrongs biggest TT victory in his career (in the tour) was by 1 minute 24 seconds but this was over 61km not 22 km... This margin of victory is absolutely unheard of and this is after Pogacar already destroyed everyone else by over a minute himself. To put that into more context, most of Lances ITT wins were by a little more than 1 minute or less and almost all of them were over 1 hour long time trials not a half hour...
Look at his GC winning margins. Maybe he soft pedaled TT's.😉
 
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Are the pundits defending dopers actually delusional enough to believe they’re clean or are they being paid off? A performance like this is so obviously glowing it’s embarrassing to admit you’re that naive.

I think it's the same song and dance as ever : It's very hard (long and arduous) to prove and corroborate doping allegations and probably beyond the means of pundits. So why ruin a good thing, rock the boat and put your career in jeopardy over it ?

I used the term "kayfabe" from wrestling earlier. It's not exactly a novel analogy, I think many (here notably) spent the late 90 and early aughts witnessing a neverending meltdown met by "it's still real to me, dammit !" from many a fan. To a certain extent all pro sports are performative in the same sense wrestling (of the American variety) is.

I've taken an interest in pro boxing recently and it's a very good case of a sport that dropped all the pretenses of being anything other than show business. There's no league, 4 organisations at least crowning separate "world champions" in a dozen+ weight categories, fighters are carefully curated on their way to becoming contenders. The main goal for promoters is to stage events that will make good ratings or sell PPVs and that often means that the best don't fight the best because you don't want to ruin the commercial potential of a top fighter by adding loss to his record. And of course a long history of corruption and organised crime ties. Not to mention the grueling cost a lot of athletes pay because of how destructive it is. Star fighters can cash in 8 figures purses but 99% of pros will not see those prizes.

Most other sports will put a more respectable facade & enforce a supposedly more equal system but ultimately you find those tendencies everywhere.

With years passing, as I said, I grew numb at the whole ordeal. I follow sports casually now and like most people, I enjoy a good show. I'm not ignorant at the cost of it or the unsavoury parts (from capital concentration to broken lives through sportwashing) but heh... What can you do ?
I came to the conclusion doping in cycling (and sports in general) is a systemic issue that you can't fix with current means or even with a few large serious efforts every couple decades. I'm not certain anymore, even on an abstract level, you can fix it... Though I would still like to think we could fix it or guarantee a more even playing field.

Being cynical there's some truth to the idea that continued scandals or the perpetuation of the post Festina / Armstrong mood would probably kill pro cycling mid term... and that it would be "unfair" because a lot of other disciplines were never held to the same standard (despite track & field, football and tennis getting some ripple aftershocks of Balco, Puerto, etc).

In short, I believe you'd need to basically completely reinvent the incentive structure of pro sports (in the complete opposite way of the current natural slope) and have some global authorities being really dedicated in monitoring it... And even that I'm unsure because the more stringent the anti-doping regulation is, the more specialized, arcane, isolated and sophisticated the sport bubble gets. You need a full medical staff to make sure athletes don't use a bunch of common medications that are also on banned substances lists (to use a recent example in cycling and baseball).

Anyhow, don't know where I'm going with this.
The masquerade will carry on until the next breaking point for another cycle. If Vingo's otherworldly performances are illegally enhanced, I hope the peloton will at least have the common sense to tell Jumbo to scale it back a notch to keep the illusion going. That's pretty rotten (inefficient & naive) to rely on the omerta but that's honestly how low my expectations are.
 
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Funny that everyone is praising Vingegaard mentality, while his lack of mentality explained his lack of results in juniors?

**

As many, I don't post in many years and today was overwhelmed by the stage, but after seeing his numbers, perfomance vs Pog and rest of the field, comparison with 90's, 00's and all the metrics and etc., for the first time, i questioned my scepticism on some sort of motor doping.

Pog result alone was something like "this guy is doped", putting 1m30 in Pog, 7.6 w/kg in the climb, etc., this is a little bit beyond human.
 
I think it's the same song and dance as ever : It's very hard (long and arduous) to prove and corroborate doping allegations and probably beyond the means of pundits. So why ruin a good thing, rock the boat and put your career in jeopardy over it ?

I used the term "kayfabe" from wrestling earlier. It's not exactly a novel analogy, I think many (here notably) spent the late 90 and early aughts witnessing a neverending meltdown met by "it's still real to me, dammit !" from many a fan. To a certain extent all pro sports are performative in the same sense wrestling (of the American variety) is.

I've taken an interest in pro boxing recently and it's a very good case of a sport that dropped all the pretenses of being anything other than show business. There's no league, 4 organisations at least crowning separate "world champions" in a dozen+ weight categories, fighters are carefully curated on their way to becoming contenders. The main goal for promoters is to stage events that will make good ratings or sell PPVs and that often means that the best don't fight the best because you don't want to ruin the commercial potential of a top fighter by adding loss to his record. And of course a long history of corruption and organised crime ties. Not to mention the grueling cost a lot of athletes pay because of how destructive it is. Star fighters can cash in 8 figures purses but 99% of pros will not see those prizes.

Most other sports will put a more respectable facade & enforce a supposedly more equal system but ultimately you find those tendencies everywhere.

With years passing, as I said, I grew numb at the whole ordeal. I follow sports casually now and like most people, I enjoy a good show. I'm not ignorant at the cost of it or the unsavoury parts (from capital concentration to broken lives through sportwashing) but heh... What can you do ?
I came to the conclusion doping in cycling (and sports in general) is a systemic issue that you can't fix with current means or even with a few large serious efforts every couple decades. I'm not certain anymore, even on an abstract level, you can fix it... Though I would still like to think we could fix it or guarantee a more even playing field.

Being cynical there's some truth to the idea that continued scandals or the perpetuation of the post Festina / Armstrong mood would probably kill pro cycling mid term... and that it would be "unfair" because a lot of other disciplines were never held to the same standard (despite track & field, football and tennis getting some ripple aftershocks of Balco, Puerto, etc).

In short, I believe you'd need to basically completely reinvent the incentive structure of pro sports (in the complete opposite way of the current natural slope) and have some global authorities being really dedicated in monitoring it... And even that I'm unsure because the more stringent the anti-doping regulation is, the more specialized, arcane, isolated and sophisticated the sport bubble gets. You need a full medical staff to make sure athletes don't use a bunch of common medication that are also on banned substances lists (to use a common example in cycling and baseball).

Anyhow, don't know where I'm going with this.
The masquerade will carry on until the next breaking point for another cycle. If Vingo's otherworldly performances are illegally enhanced, I hope the peloton will at least have the common sense to tell Jumbo to scale it back a notch to keep the illusion going. That's pretty rotten (inefficient & naive) to rely on the omerta but that's honestly how low my expectations are.
I think to a degree people who are obsessed about winning also are more likely to cheat. I know people wants to believe otherwise but to me the opposite is more logical;

Winning is about defeating others and get celebrated/admired by others. We want to believe that those motivated by being celebrated/admired are few. But it makes no sense, because as long as one doesn't get caught it won't interfere with getting admired. Hence cheating becomes a very a natural/logical thing.

People with competition etics ain't that interested in competiotion as they're happy enough by competing against themselves.

I'm maybe even more cynical than you :beercheers:

Edit: darn how many times I've edited this post to try to make myself more clear.
 
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Today's Vingegaards' performance made me think of the mRNA printing technologies.

The same that was used recently for the first time in the creation of the pfizer and moderna covid vaccines.

Where the actually coded, and using DNA printers and chemical processes in the end produced RNA, that once in the body would find certain cells that using the encoded information in the RNA would produce the spike proteins that would resemble the COVID ones, so that the immune system can be educated.

https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/

If you have enough research budget and will, what stops you from experimenting and researching printing mRNA that would on a very short time optimise the delivery of recovery or energy material to the muscles ?

And if you google for current anti doping measures and detection of all sorts of gene doping – it is all at the very early stages, very limited and essentially close to none.

To catch something so specific one would need to go the route of doing WGS on daily blood samples, looking at whatever weird RNA remnants are still floating in the blood and even then it might be uncatchable if it is was well encoded.

So with that said I don't think any of the Vinegaard current WADA tests would blink now and even in the future.

Another approach to somewhat solve this or at least get it from ridiculous levels is to force everyone to ride with a power meter and a heart rate monitor and make this info public and live for all.
Good factual and relevant input here.
Myself have had same thoughts few years ago (not substantiated, just suspicions) about mRNA experiments and determined projects with young people, when a whole new generation of riders suddenly appeared with abilities and physical maturity not seen before.
 
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Kudos to the fiber diet / empty Vingo's intestines / aero flat belly post-hoc rationalisation though, this one is darkly absurd.

Honestly it'd be easier to stomach a generic "out of this world performance, perfect storm, guy was touched by an angel" but you can't quite do that because we get those incredible performances every other year now.
 
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What makes this impossible to doubt - as a proper mutant performance:

Before the rest day, he was very close, possibly slightly behind Pog. After the rest day, he absolutely smashed him beyond any recognition. And Pog performed well. So, there is an an undoubted very significant wattage gain right after the rest day - this is really an objective fact, it is plain as day, we don't even need to see any figures.

When a GT rider has a very significant wattage gain right after the rest day, it is just the biggest, most obvious, most classical red flag in the book. Seen it so many times. Will see it so many more.
 
They must do something. Ban him during the Tour like Rasmussen, this is just too obvious. I have more than 20 years of watching cycling and c'mon, I will not believe again miracles can happen.
I still think I'm in a coma and this stage never happened.
 
I think to a degree people who are obsessed about winning also are more likely to cheat. I know people wants to believe otherwise but to me this makes more sense; Winning is about defeating others and get celebrated by others. We want to believe that those motivated by being celebrated are few. But logic should give it's the opposite. And if the latter is the main point then cheating becomes a natural thing. As long as you don't get caught it won't interfere with the celebration.

In short; people with competition etics ain't that interested in competiotion as they're happy enough by competing against themselves.

I'm maybe even more cynical than you :beercheers:

That's definitely a part of the ever sharper competitive edge.

We've been around the block a couple of times so we know from experience that it is not so simple as forcing all sports to be amateur, sadly.

Hopeful that, perhaps, spreading the money around more evenly, counteracting the revenue inequality (between teams, riders, etc) could maybe curb out some excesses ?

The fragility of cycling economy, with on one side a few events making a massive amount of the actual money and on the other teams being in a precarious state of having to find new sponsors every handful of years, is probably not helping.
 
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