Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Netserk]

Slightly inaccurate, the carbon re- breathing is not against the rules currently

Not if used to measure haemoglobin mass (like how Vingegaard says they are using it). It is however currently banned if used to provoke a physiological response, as it functions like xenon in that regard and fall under the same rule.

The haemoglobin measurement that they openly confess to use is not doping. When used as a hypoxia-inducible factor activating agent (S2.1.2), then it's banned just like xenon and cobalt are. The prohibited list doesn't have to name the substance for it to be banned ("Including, but not limited to:").

 

[Berniece]

Not if used to measure haemoglobin mass (like how Vingegaard says they are using it). It is however currently banned if used to provoke a physiological response, as it functions like xenon in that regard and fall under the same rule.

Can they check for that?

 

[Netserk]

Can they check for that?

Directly? Probably not. Just like that they can't check if you used a blood bag.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He is asking to ban carbon monoxide rebreather.
I don't like when riders act like they are defending a clean sport specially when they are doped to the gills

 

[Netserk]

I don't know what is the norm for French journalists when it comes to direct quotes and paraphrase, you should be better able to interpret the original article (judging by the formatting of the article, it seems to me that it's all paraphrase). The final question and answer is about CO.

Original source: https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/articl...sage-du-monoxyde-de-carbone_6503602_3242.html

Full article: https://archive.ph/uNOIe

Original exchange (well, after Le Monde's translation from English to French, I assume):

ChatGPT:

Visma-LAB rejects Le Monde's paraphrase and translation of his answer.

Afviser Vingegaard-historie: 'Det har han aldrig sagt'

Læs mere her

ekstrabladet.dk

Visma afviser
Ifølge Vingegaards hold - Visma Lease a-Bike - er de ord dog aldrig kommet ud af hans mund.

'Det er tydeligvis en fejlfortolkning og forvirring mellem sprog. Han har aldrig sagt det. Jonas er ikke typen, der anklager andre - det ved du,' skriver Vismas pressechef Sander Kleikers i en besked til Ekstra Bladet.

Ekstra Bladet har kontaktet Le Monde via mail og forsøgt at ringe til dem for en kommentar og for at se interviewet eller høre en eventuel lydfil med interviewet. De har endnu ikke svaret.

Translated:

Visma Denies
According to Jonas Vingegaard's team, Visma Lease a-Bike, those words were never spoken by him.

"It is clearly a misunderstanding and confusion between languages. He never said that. Jonas is not the type to accuse others—you know that," wrote Visma’s press officer, Sander Kleikers, in a message to Ekstra Bladet.

Ekstra Bladet has contacted Le Monde via email and attempted to call them for a comment, as well as to access the interview or listen to a possible audio recording of it. They have yet to respond.

As usual, sensational paraphrase is unreliable. If it's not a direct quote (and preferably with an accessible recording), such brief statements that doesn't sound like what the interviewee would ever say live are pretty much worthless.

 

[Rackham]

Visma-LAB rejects Le Monde's paraphrase and translation of his answer.

Afviser Vingegaard-historie: 'Det har han aldrig sagt'

Læs mere her

ekstrabladet.dk

Translated:


As usual, sensational paraphrase is unreliable. If it's not a direct quote (and preferably with an accessible recording), such brief statements that doesn't sound like what the interviewee would ever say live are pretty much worthless.

Either Le Monde got their interview wrong... or Visma is doing damage control.

It's an interesting story because Le Monde is a huge newspaper (& a 'respected' one, to an extent, i.e. even more so than L'Equipe these days). So... where's the truth? I guess we'll wait for Le Monde's response now.

Ekstra Bladet has contacted Le Monde via email and tried to call them for a comment and to see the interview or hear a possible audio file of the interview. They have not yet responded.

 

[Netserk]

Either Le Monde got their interview wrong... or Visma is doing damage control.

It's an interesting story because Le Monde is a huge newspaper (& a 'respected' one, to an extent, i.e. even more so than L'Equipe these days). So... where's the truth? I guess we'll wait for Le Monde's response now.

If the direct quote of Vingegaard had been that juicy, I don't think they would have gone with a paraphrase of all of his answers.

 

[Rackham]

If the direct quote of Vingegaard had been that juicy, I don't think they would have gone with a paraphrase of all of his answers.

I don't think they did paraphrase though? I saw the original article and it's not formatted in a paraphrased way, unless I'm mistaken. https://archive.ph/uNOIe#selection-2529.0-2537.261

Bolded = question, then Vinge's answer, at least according to le Monde.

Depuis plusieurs mois, l’inhalation de monoxyde de carbone fait polémique. Confirmez-vous avoir eu recours à cette méthode et, si oui, pouvez-vous expliquer en quoi cela consiste ?​

Mon équipe utilise le monoxyde de carbone pour mesurer le volume sanguin et la masse totale d’hémoglobine. On inhale le monoxyde une première fois, avant d’effectuer un stage en altitude. A la fin de celui-ci, on réitère l’opération pour calculer notre capacité maximale d’absorption d’oxygène.
Mais certaines équipes détournent son usage en inhalant régulièrement de faibles doses de monoxyde de carbone, ce qui provoque un gain significatif de performance de leurs coureurs. Ce n’est pas juste et il faudrait que l’Agence mondiale antidopage l’interdise.

So if it's incorrect... they've put literal words in his mouth. It's not presented as paraphrased.

 

[Netserk]

In all big media I read and am familiar with, it's not a direct quote if it isn't inside quotation marks (or with other typographical markings of a quote).

The language of his answers is just clearly not his own. I've never heard him phrase his answers like that. His answers in that article are all much tighter and sharper than how he usually speaks.

 

[YellowSocks]

In all big media I read and am familiar with, it's not a direct quote if it isn't inside quotation marks (or with other typographical markings of a quote).

Le Monde doesn't use quotation marks if the whole article is an interview, with no paraphrase.
They of course offer a right to reply if they think they may have published inaccurate information.

 

[kingjr]

Newspaper interviews are usually edited for things like clarity, readability, and style conformity, rather than presented as direct, verbatim quotes. And perhaps also to make it juicier, if they can get away with it.

 

[YellowSocks]

to make it juicier

Not Le Monde's style, but the interview was made by a special correspondant, so who knows.

I don't understand why Visma would use a danish newspaper as an intermediate (and what danish newspaper... I went to their website and... WOW ). If they directly write to Le Monde, they will get an answer. I am not sure they really want one. It feels like their usual sneaky communication here.

 

[Rob5091]

Visma press officer Sander Kleikers "talking it back" (in other words, you didn't hear what you just heard) as they say. Was he the one trying to stop Vingegaard talking?

 

[Pozzovivo]

I'm pretty convinced Vingegaard didn't say what is being reported. It seems like a completely unprovoked own- goal and he's always very careful with what he says. Poor reporting probably.

But, unfortunately, there is little clarity on whether this method has been used/abused or not by Visma/UAE/ISP. I think there is a good chance. Pictures that occur of Visma riders doing the, now regulated, inhalation method is already out there.

Of course, the now illegal practice have only been provided to riders for "research purposes" but the researchers (Rønnestad and colleagues) do work/worked with Visma on training, heat and altitude optimization. If any team used/abuse it, it's surely Visma-LAB. I thought it was interesting to hear Patrick Broe defend Visma and other teams so forcefully on the LR podcast a while back. He really thought Escape collective had done an unfair hit-piece. Not sure they did.

Picture shows former Visma rider Staune-Mittet using the inhalation practice at a lab in Norway(?). It was published by Norwegian media in relation to the researchers doing a study on the, now banned, practice of administering regular doses of carbon monoxide. However, under the picture it say's that what we see here is just the legal measurement method. Thanks to @Netserk for pointing this out

 

[Netserk]

Pictures that occur of Visma riders doing the, now illegal, inhalation method is already out there.

It's not illegal. It's more strictly regulated though.

 

[Pozzovivo]

It's not illegal. It's more strictly regulated though.

No, the repeated inhalation practice that is being undertaken in the study where this picture is from is actually banned. The measurement practice is more strictly regulated.

The UCI bans repeated inhalation of carbon monoxide, and introduces measures to ensure participation of best teams in top-tier road events

www.uci.org

 

[Netserk]

No, the repeated inhalation practice that is being undertaken in the study where this picture is from is actually banned. The measurement practice is more strictly regulated.

The UCI bans repeated inhalation of carbon monoxide, and introduces measures to ensure participation of best teams in top-tier road events

www.uci.org

And Visma has publicly only ever said that they used the method to measure haemoglobin, not to manipulate blood values (which was already outlawed before the recent change of regulations).

 

[Pozzovivo]

And Visma has publicly only ever said that they used the method to measure haemoglobin, not to manipulate blood values (which was already outlawed before the recent change of regulations).

I don't see the point. This picture is from a study that did the "banned" practice not the measurement method. There is thus photo evidence that at least a rider on Visma has undertaken this, now illegal, procedure. I mean Visma can say that they had no part in it but it's a rider on their roster undertaking the practice by being in a study conducted by sports scientists that they work with.

I think this reasonably constitutes "they" doing the practice, no?

 

[Netserk]

I don't see the point. This picture is from a study that did the "banned" practice not the measurement method. There is thus photo evidence that at least a rider on Visma has undertaken this, now illegal, procedure. I mean Visma can say that they had no part in it but it's a rider on their roster undertaking the practice by being in a study conducted by sports scientists that they work with.

I think this reasonably constitutes "they" doing the practice, no?

Source?

Johannes Staune-Mittet på testbenken etter sitt først høydeopphold i utlandet

www.nrk.no

Laboratorium på fjellet​

Og det er her Høgskolen i Innlandet kommer inn. De har samarbeidet med Jumbo-Visma i ti år om nettopp høydetrening.

– Vi måler effekten av høydetrening på røde blodlegemer før og etter høydeopphold, forteller Rønningstad.

Mange gjør liknende arbeid som Høgskolen, men det unike de har gjort er at de har flyttet laboratoriet til der samlinga er, sjøl om det har bydd på ganske store logistikkutfordringer.

Før Tour de France var de med på to slike samlinger.

– Dermed får vi målt nøyaktig effekten av treninga, sier Rønnestad.

The pictures of Staune-Mittet and Vingegaard are from the always legal measurements of haemoglobin.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Source?

Johannes Staune-Mittet på testbenken etter sitt først høydeopphold i utlandet

www.nrk.no

The pictures of Staune-Mittet and Vingegaard are from the always legal measurements of haemoglobin.

In that article perhaps, but not the one I posted the pricture from. It literally says this in Google Translate;

"In a research project, well-trained Norwegian cyclists were given CO gas several times a day. This practice is now banned."

And the picture with Staune Mittet appear below.
Source:

Forskingsprosjekt gav daglege dosar CO-gass til norske utøvarane – nå blir metoden forboden

I eit forskingsprosjekt blei godt trena, norske syklistar gitt CO-gass fleire gonger dagleg. Denne praksisen er nå forboden.

www.nrk.no

 

[Netserk]

In that article perhaps, but not the one I posted the pricture from. It literally says this in Google Translate;

"In a research project, well-trained Norwegian cyclists were given CO gas several times a day. This practice is now banned."

And the picture with Staune Mittet appear below.
Source:

Forskingsprosjekt gav daglege dosar CO-gass til norske utøvarane – nå blir metoden forboden

I eit forskingsprosjekt blei godt trena, norske syklistar gitt CO-gass fleire gonger dagleg. Denne praksisen er nå forboden.

www.nrk.no

Do you have a source that says Staune-Mittet received the illegal treatment?

The one you linked did not.

Derfor bruker dei gassen​

Det er Bent Rønnestad som saman med kollega Joar Hansen har stått for målinga av ryttarar som nettopp Vingegaard, norske Johannes Staune-Mittet og fleire andre ryttarar i Visma-laget dei siste tre sesongane.

Han fortel at bruk av karbonmonoksid for å måle høgdeeffekt er ein metode som går fleire tiår tilbake i tid i norsk idrett.

– De bruker karbonmonoksid, og det er sikkert ein del som stussar på det. Kvifor ønsker de å bruke det på idrettsutøvarar?

– Det festar seg veldig lett til dei raude blodcellene. Derfor er gassen veldig eigna for å måle kor mykje raude blodceller som er i kroppen. Så gir vi berre ein veldig liten dose under kontrollerte forhold, og da er ikkje dette farleg for utøvarane, seier Rønnestad til NRK.

TESTA HØGDEEFFEKTEN: Bent Rønnestad og forskarane på Lillehammer har samarbeidd med Visma-Lease a Bike dei siste åra. Her får Johannes Staune-Mittet den lovlege behandlinga med CO-gass.

 

[Netserk]

Btw, I think the decent thing to do when posting factually false information based on misunderstanding an article in a foreign language (which was not originally linked to for others to be able to check the claim) and then getting corrected, is to correct the original post with the false claim and perhaps to show the least bit of gratitude for others correcting your mistake.

The study referred to at the end of the article is the one mentioned here two weeks ago:

Yes, but the point, as I understand it, is that high levels of carboxyhemoglobin can counteract these benefits, at least in the short term. So you'd first have to use it for an extended period, which comes with considerable health risks, and then stop using it; and even then, it's unclear whether there are any actual benefits compared to regular altitude training.

Cycling performance determinants improved more with CO inhalation at moderate altitude compared to sea-level training, whereas there were no differences in submaximal and maximal performance measures compared to moderate-altitude training alone.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39236115/

I don't think Staune-Mittet was one of the participants, as it couldn't have been before the Baby Giro.

 

[Pozzovivo]

The pictures of Staune-Mittet and Vingegaard are from the always legal measurements of haemoglobin.

Given that these practices look identical, how do you know that? Because they say so.

I cannot literally prove to you that Staune Mittet participated. They obviously conceal the identity of study participants like every study does. The balance of probabilities, however, appear extremely one-sided. Elite Male cyclists (group around 20) from Norway, and Staune mittet have worked with them for years it says... Probably Nordhagen participated too I'd guess.

 

[Netserk]

Given that these practices look identical, how do you know that? Because they say so.

Because your own source says so in the text below the image. Because Visma and Staune-Mittet are only mentioned in the context of haemoglobin measurements.

Your false claim, based purely on misunderstandings or speculation:

Picture shows former Visma rider Staune-Mittet using the, now, illegal inhalation practice at a lab in Norway(?). It was published by Norwegian/Danish(?) media.

The picture doesn't show and doesn't claim to show that.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Btw, I think the decent thing to do when posting factually false information based on misunderstanding an article in a foreign language (which was not originally linked to for others to be able to check the claim) and then getting corrected, is to correct the original post with the false claim and perhaps to show the least bit of gratitude for others correcting your mistake.

The study referred to at the end of the article is the one mentioned here two weeks ago:

I don't think Staune-Mittet was one of the participants, as it couldn't have been before the Baby Giro.

What have you corrected that was false? The article literally says they used the now banned practice and posted pictures of the athletes. How was I supposed to know that the subtitle to the photo saying that this was "the legal" inhalation practice shown here... It was missed non-intentionally by me, but that's also obviously what they would say now isn't it??