Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Peyroteo94]

Doesn't matter what the fans want.
Also, Lance "likeable"?

For the fans, mate. He was an @sshole for riders and journalists who challenge his authority but for fans he was a myth, a god. How do you think he built this aura of purity? He had people defending him without knowing a little thing about cycling or doping. He was really nice for the fans. No one personified better the people's champion narrative than him.

 

[Berflamand]

The 2021 Vuelta still gives me some hope. Back then, Primoz was as strong as Vingegaard was in the 2022 TdF.

If Primoz can regain this shape, and/or even improve, he could win the TdF.

Jonas is an absolute teamplayer. If Primoz will line up in mentioned shape, Jonas would support him.

The greatest thing would be a TdF GC battle between Jonas+Primoz and Pogi+Ayuso.

Or, even better: battle of the titans, like this:

Jonas+Primoz
Pogi+Ayuso
Remco
Bernal+Thomas
Froomey.

That would be epic…

I was reading this like:

Jonas+Primoz
Pogi+Ayuso
Remco

Unlikely that all of them will challenge for the win in the same TDF but yes that would be great.

Bernal+Thomas

I don't think they'll be much of a factor in the battle of the above mentioned 'titans'. Maybe Bernal has a small chance if he ever regains his previous form but even then I think he's no match for them anymore.

Froomey

Lol.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar is my favourite rider because he looks like the 70's Netherlands in football, always attacking and a pure joy to watch. I really think Vingegaard should receive more credit for the way he beat Pogi and this Tour can be really the race where he turns in a people's champion

I like Pogacar because of how he rides, not how he looks or talks. He is a well rounded rider a bit like Nibali was at his best (not a one dimensional climber) and also the fact he showed his talent well before he won the TdF as any comparison of Pog vs Vingegaard's records shows. As an Australian Vingegaard's personality reminds me a little of Cadel who was awkward in the spotlight in his own way.

And IMO it wasn't just Vingegaard who beat Pogi. It was a combination of Pogi's over confidence on stage 11 , the combined strength of JV (incl WvA) and of course Vingegaard who capitalized on this. Vingegaard can get into similar shape by July but not sure those other factors can be counted on, plus I think this year's course is less suitable to Vingegaard.

 

[noob]

He seems to be an old-school preparator.

 

[theyoungest]

I agree with you. I'm a little bit like Vingegaard and I would probably behave like him If I was a Tour de France winner. Don't get me wrong but I feel people wants the Tour de France winner to be like a Sagan, Pogacar or Lance who are more open and likeable to the fans. Pogacar is my favourite rider because he looks like the 70's Netherlands in football, always attacking and a pure joy to watch. I really think Vingegaard should receive more credit for the way he beat Pogi and this Tour can be really the race where he turns in a people's champion

Apparently you don't think that way, but 'the people' do. Who are the people? Vingegaard is not pretending to be someone he's not. That's always the best idea in the long run.

 

[Red Rick]

Armstrong was many things but saying he was likeable blows my mind.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Armstrong was many things but saying he was likeable blows my mind.

It's easy to speak right now but 20 years ago, cycling was Armstrong to non cycling fans and those who just watched the Tour.

 

[RedheadDane]

It's easy to speak right now but 20 years ago, cycling was Armstrong to non cycling fans and those who just watched the Tour.

Because he was the one who dominated...

 

[Peyroteo94]

Apparently you don't think that way, but 'the people' do. Who are the people? Vingegaard is not pretending to be someone he's not. That's always the best idea in the long run.

People in this forum. I think people here prefer Roglic a lot more and for me, personally, I can't see why because Roglic is not a enjoyable rider on the bike (off he seems a really good guy even If I don't know him).

 

[Peyroteo94]

Because he was the one who dominated...

Indurain dominated The tour too and he didn't have half the suport and fans. This isn't about dominance. It was about the cancer narrative and personality of Lance who made him way more likeable. We agree to disagree, it is pointless to continue this discussion because we have different points of view.

 

[RedheadDane]

Indurain dominated The tour too and he didn't have half the suport and fans. This isn't about dominance. It was about the cancer narrative and personality of Lance who made him way more likeable. We agree to disagree, it is pointless to continue this discussion because we have different points of view.

I'll agree that he probably presented himself as a likeable guy.

 

[noob]

People in this forum. I think people here prefer Roglic a lot more and for me, personally, I can't see why because Roglic is not a enjoyable rider on the bike (off he seems a really good guy even If I don't know him).

As much as I adore Rogla I definitely don't get a feeling about him being "himself". I get that feeling much more with Jonas. Rogla is an entertainer. Feels a lot like a persona to me.

(Also we can never take out Rogla looks from the equation of his popularity. )

 

[Netserk]

I have found him a negative, sometimes cowardly rider in the past, but during last year's Tour, he surprised me in a good way. Let's hope his new found status motivates him to start riding in a more proactive way from now on.

He is often quite cautious and anxious, but negative? I can only think of Itzulia last year when Rogla was leading the race to fit that bill.

No races of his in 2021 match that description.

And last year's Tour surprised you in that regard?! If anything, he rode more passively there than usually, the difference was simply that he was stronger.

 

[Valv.Piti]

The only thing you realistically can blame him for last years Tour is not attacking a tad earlier on Granon. Thats it. Otherwise he rode the perfect race I think, even if it wasn't the most exciting - but he didn't really need to do anything exciting to win after that time gain. Pogacar was that man, mainly because he NEEDED to.

This year has seen him be a bit more aggressive which is good. It backfired in Paris-Nice, but he would have lost anyways. He needed van Hoydonck to crash Pogacar to have a chance.

 

[Andy schleck]

I think it was more that he didn’t really know his limits rather than cowardice.

Vingegaard still lacks confidence. He should be more confident in himself. Yesterday, if you look at the print, he was always looking behind.

 

[Nick2413]

When Pogacar is the rider you’re up against, I don’t blame anyone for being cautious. He does have a timid vibe but he’s probably the most relatable guy in the top ranks, to me at least.

 

[Andy schleck]

1. His attack on Granon was super late considering all that happened before. He was lucky Pogacar collapsed otherwise he would have won the bare minimum or not even attacked. Especially saying he almost didn't attack created this narrative in my opinion.
2. His Ventoux attack in 2021 was also very late on Ventoux, although arguably he was protecting Van Aert a bit as well.

I agree with the second point. He attacked to late on ventoux.

I disagree with the first point. He attacked in the right time on granon. He attacked almost 5 km from the finish line. In a climb like that, 5 km is a lot, but yeah, he gain 3 min because pogacar collapsed, but i expected that in normal conditions he could gain 45s/ 1 min on pogacar.

 

[Rackham]

Vingegaard still lacks confidence. He should be more confident in himself. Yesterday, if you look at the print, he was always looking behind.

He ironically lost big time in Paris-Nice last month as a result of being too ambitious, i.e. attacking hard & blowing himself up.

I think it'll be a fascinating duel with Pop in July & a lot is going to depend on what team Jumbo send (yes Rog or no Rog, that's the question). Because without any significant ITT km's the GC fight is going to be a lot closer IMO.

 

[Boehmand]

He's only been riding as a team leader for like 2 years or so. Which 'past' are you talking about?

Not even that.

The first stage race he started as a captain for the team, was Tirreno-Adriatico 13 months ago.

 

[Nick2413]

He ironically lost big time in Paris-Nice last month as a result of being too ambitious, i.e. attacking hard & blowing himself up.

I think it'll be a fascinating duel with Pop in July & a lot is going to depend on what team Jumbo send (yes Rog or no Rog, that's the question). Because without any significant ITT km's the GC fight is going to be a lot closer IMO.

TTs have been basically a wash between these 2 guys though?

 

[theyoungest]

Not even that.

The first stage race he started as a captain for the team, was Tirreno-Adriatico 13 months ago.

No, that's not true. Coppi e Bartali 2021 was where they deliberately gave him the leadership role, bascially told him 'you have to win this race' because he had difficulty dealing with pressure. After that of course in the Tour 2021 he became the leader, he wasn't initially but for most of the race he was.

 

[Rackham]

TTs have been basically a wash between these 2 guys though?

I think Vingegaard now edges Pogacar in a long ITT & I also think the advantage a time trial gives both riders over the rest of the field (basically throwing climbers like Gaudu & Mas way behind) allows for the likes of Pog & Vinge to focus only on each other whilst ignoring the rest.

We'll see this in the Giro where Evenepoel & Roglič should have an important margin over the rest of the GC contenders before the mountains, i.e. meaning they'll focus on their own battle whilst not caring so much when another rider who is behind already rides up the road.

 

[theyoungest]

I think Vingegaard now edges Pogacar in a long ITT & I also think the advantage a time trial gives both riders over the rest of the field (basically throwing climbers like Gaudu & Mas way behind) allows for the likes of Pog & Vinge to focus only on each other whilst ignoring the rest.

Okay, but where did this advantage play out in last year's Tour? The time trial didn't play any role whatsoever. They could focus on each other because they were simply far and away the best, I don't think they even knew Mas was there (all due respect).

 

[Rackham]

Okay, but where did this advantage play out in last year's Tour? The time trial didn't play any role whatsoever. They could focus on each other because they were simply far and away the best, I don't think they even knew Mas was there (all due respect).

I'm looking at this from a standardized 'norms' within pro-cycling perspective, not just last year. Last year's TdF was very unique & the Granon stage established a scenario which is rarely ever repeated in any GT. It was unusual to have one GC favorite attack & put 3 minutes on the defending champ in the mountains. I hadn't seen that since... 1998? Maybe I'm wrong but the mountains have been a very tight affair in terms of GC gaps for many, many years now.

ITT's meanwhile give rouleur grimpeurs a huge advantage. Vingegaard is absolutely a rouleur grimpeur & one of the best in the world. Remove the ITT & that's half his arsenal & advantage taken away. Now he can still win (obviously) but the gaps won't be as big as last year unless something very unusual happens again. TJV shouldn't count on that either. Vingegaard is going to have to follow Pog on the climbs & out-punch him, or drop him outright. He's also going to need to guard against other climbers attacking & getting up the road. This can happen if the GC gaps are small & Vinge & Pog look at each other too much.

 

[Boehmand]

I like Pogacar because of how he rides, not how he looks or talks. He is a well rounded rider a bit like Nibali was at his best (not a one dimensional climber) and also the fact he showed his talent well before he won the TdF as any comparison of Pog vs Vingegaard's records shows. As an Australian Vingegaard's personality reminds me a little of Cadel who was awkward in the spotlight in his own way.

And IMO it wasn't just Vingegaard who beat Pogi. It was a combination of Pogi's over confidence on stage 11 , the combined strength of JV (incl WvA) and of course Vingegaard who capitalized on this. Vingegaard can get into similar shape by July but not sure those other factors can be counted on, plus I think this year's course is less suitable to Vingegaard.

The 3 main areas where Vingegaard is better than Pogacar are:

• Week 3, because he recovers better than any other top stage race rider.
• Above 2000 meters, because he loses less power than anyone else in thin air.
• Extreme heat, because that is Pogacar's Achilles heel.

If any of those 3 factors are present, Vingegaard has the upper hand, if not Pogacar is the superior rider.

It has to be said on the recovery part though, that we will probably see Pogacar be a lot more focused on conservation at this years Tour, and as he has never really done that before, we are yet to learn what that means to the balance of power in the last week of the race.