Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Samu Cuenca]

Paris-Nice was 1 vs 1 which cannot be compared to Galibier/Granon because at that point UAE was racing without 2 important domestiques in Vegard Stake Laengen and George Bennett due to positive covid-19 tests. Let's not forget that it was for the most part basically almost the whole of Jumbo vs Pogacar and later down that stage Roglic and Vingegaard 1-2 attacking Pogacar.

Sure thats bike racing but lets not pretend Vingegaard won without many things going his way and without many things going against UAE.

This tour UAE looks stronger than last year and Roglic isn't participating in this years edition, as I said barring any covid or crashes, I dont see Vingegaard outriding Pogacar in this tour.

Stake Laengen and Bennett would have been dropped anyway the way Jumbo were riding that stage though. I don't disagree that Vingegaard had luck on his side, but nothing indicates he wasn't the strongest rider in the race either. That doesn't mean he'll always be the strongest rider, just like Pogačar himself hasn't been.

This year's route should favour Pogačar more than last year's, but with his form being uncertain and Vingegaard delivering the goods and the watts, it's not as clear cut as you make it sound like.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Stake Laengen and Bennett would have been dropped anyway the way Jumbo were riding that stage though. I don't disagree that Vingegaard had luck on his side, but nothing indicates he wasn't the strongest rider in the race either. That doesn't mean he'll always be the strongest rider, just like Pogačar himself hasn't been.

This year's route should favour Pogačar more than last year's, but with his form being uncertain and Vingegaard delivering the goods and the watts, it's not as clear cut as you make it sound like.

Nothing indicates that they would have been dropped both are experienced and capable domestiques with 24 grand tours between them. You're just dismissing facts that go against what you're trying to argue.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He wasn't overconfident afterwards, but he lost the race that day and didn't recover from it. I'm not disputing that Pogačar was the strongest rider in the race, but Vingegaard would have finished second if he had ridden smarter on stage 4.

So you believe Vingegaard could have beaten Pogi if he wasn't overconfident? I don't think so.

 

[Red Rick]

Paris Nice about as relevant as Itzulia 21.

Roglic beat both Vingegaard and Pogacar in stage races they both finished

 

[Samu Cuenca]

So you believe Vingegaard could have beaten Pogi if he wasn't overconfident? I don't think so.

I think you should read it again
I said that the difference between them seemed bigger than it actually was.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Nothing indicates that they would have been dropped both are experienced and capable domestiques with 24 grand tours between them. You're just dismissing facts that go against what you're trying to argue.

I hope you don't believe Stake Laengen would have been able to hold on. Only two GT winners and one future one were there whenever the pace went up on Galibier.

 

[Andy schleck]

Paris-Nice was 1 vs 1 which cannot be compared to Galibier/Granon because at that point UAE was racing without 2 important domestiques in Vegard Stake Laengen and George Bennett due to positive covid-19 tests. Let's not forget that it was for the most part basically almost the whole of Jumbo vs Pogacar and later down that stage Roglic and Vingegaard 1-2 attacking Pogacar.

Sure thats bike racing but lets not pretend Vingegaard won without many things going his way and without many things going against UAE.

This tour UAE looks stronger than last year and Roglic isn't participating in this years edition, as I said barring any covid or crashes, I dont see Vingegaard outriding Pogacar in this tour.

Peyragudes stage wasn't 2 vs 1? Vingegaard was alone.
Hautacam it's wasn't 1 vs 1? The last TT wasn't 1 vs 1?

It's true that roglic helped Vingegaard on granon, but pogacar didn't lost 3 min because of that. He lost 3 minutes because he forgot of eating and hydrate. It was an anomaly losing 3 minutes to vingegaard. He would lost 1 min to vingegaard on granon in normal conditions.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I hope you don't believe Stake Laengen would have been able to hold on. Only two GT winners and one future one were there whenever the pace went up on Galibier.

Stake Laengen could've been to use in stage 11 but also on other stages and Bennett would've been with Pogacar when they 1-2 attacked him.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Stake Laengen could've been to use in stage 11 but also on other stages and Bennett would've been with Pogacar when they 1-2 attacked him.

Bennett would have been dropped just like Majka was. He might have been able to come bcak, too, but the damage was already done by then. Of course a stronger looking UAE might have made JV less condident in ther plan, but I still believe they would have manged to execute it. But again, that doesn't say anything about how this year's Tour will pan out.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Peyragudes stage wasn't 2 vs 1? Vingegaard was alone.
Hautacam it's wasn't 1 vs 1? The last TT wasn't 1 vs 1?

It's true that roglic helped Vingegaard on granon, but pogacar didn't lost 3 min because of that. He lost 3 minutes because he forgot of eating and hydrate. It was an anomaly losing 3 minutes to vingegaard. He would lost 1 min to vingegaard on granon in normal conditions.

What are you trying to argue? Hautacam was Van Aert and Vingegaard vs Pogacar

Rafal Majka also abandoned before stage 17 because of a crash and couldn't be there for Hautacam and Peyragudes stages.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Bennett would have been dropped just like Majka was. He might have been able to come bcak, too, but the damage was already done by then. Of course a stronger looking UAE might have made JV less condident in ther plan, but I still believe they would have manged to execute it. But again, that doesn't say anything about how this year's Tour will pan out.

Many got dropped but eventually made it back when Van Aert decided to wait so he could pace them back to the yellow jersey group. Bennett would've been one of them brought back.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Many got dropped but eventually made it back when Van Aert decided to wait so he could pace them back to the yellow jersey group. Bennett would've been one of them brought back.

But it wouldn't have made a difference since Pog was already cooked by then.

 

[pelotonIQ]

But it wouldn't have made a difference since Pog was already cooked by then.

You're underestimating how much an extra domestique would've helped. At that point, nothing indicated he was cooked. Eventually at the end of the stage he bonked (which is different from ''cooked'') from all the work he had to do without much help.

 

[Andy schleck]

What are you trying to argue? Hautacam was Van Aert and Vingegaard vs Pogacar

Rafal Majka also abandoned before stage 17 because of a crash and couldn't be there for Hautacam and Peyragudes stages.

What miracle majka would do on hautacam if pogacar couldn't follow Vingegaard's wheel?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

You're underestimating how much an extra domestique would've helped. At that point, nothing indicated he was cooked. Eventually at the end of the stage he bonked (which is different from ''cooked'') from all the work he had to do without much help.

He had Majka helping him, but he was already suffering trying to hold Majka's wheel, so I doubt Bennett could have made much difference there.

 

[pelotonIQ]

What miracle majka would do on hautacam if pogacar couldn't follow Vingegaard's wheel?

You have to think wider. The Hautacam stage was 143km with 3 mountain tops. Are you saying that Laengen, Bennet and Majka wouldn't have made a difference in assisting Pogacar during the course of the stage?

Pogacar was forced to ride in the front for the most part and was facing the wind while Vingegaard with his domestiques enjoyed the draft so it is understandable he didn't have the legs at the end. Maybe you're one of those that only watch the final part of every stage and that's why you dont comprehend the bigger picture.

 

[theyoungest]

You have to think wider. The Hautacam stage was 143km with 3 mountain tops. Are you saying that Laengen, Bennet and Majka wouldn't have made a difference in assisting Pogacar during the course of the stage?

Pogacar was forced to ride in the front for the most part and was facing the wind while Vingegaard with his domestiques enjoyed the draft so it is understandable he didn't have the legs at the end. Maybe you're one of those that only watch the final part of every stage and that's why you dont comprehend the wider picture.

You're acting like Vingegaard had 7 guys to help him. If you've watched the Tour in its entirety, as apparently you did, you'd know that he had only one climbing domestique left: Sepp Kuss. His team wasn't that much stronger uphill than UAE's. They just rode more smartly.

Also, if not having a lot of help counts for Pogacar, why doesn't it count for Vingegaard on Peyragudes?

 

[pelotonIQ]

He had Majka helping him, but he was already suffering trying to hold Majka's wheel, so I doubt Bennett could have made much difference there.

Who knows what would've happened because he bonked which but 2 domestiques is better than 1.

We cannot forget the wider picture, he didn't only lose Laengen and Bennett for 11 but also for the rest of the tour and later also Majka for the Hautacam and Peyragudes.

 

[pelotonIQ]

You're acting like Vingegaard had 7 guys to help him. If you've watched the Tour in its entirety, as apparently you did, you'd know that he had only one climbing domestique left: Sepp Kuss. His team wasn't that much stronger uphill than UAE's. They just rode more smartly.

Also, if not having a lot of help counts for Pogacar, why doesn't it count for Vingegaard on Peyragudes?

Did Vingegaard ever have to work like Pogacar worked in stage 11 or stage 18?

The tour is a marathon, not a suprise Vingegaard had better legs in the third week, he barely did any work, his team did everything for him.
All I'm saying is lets not pretend Vingegaard won without many things going his way and without many things going against UAE.

 

[theyoungest]

All I'm saying is lets not pretend Vingegaard won without many things going his way and without many things going against UAE.

Once again you're just picking and choosing to fit your argument. Because if Vingegaard can only win the Tour if everything goes his way, doesn't the same go for Pogacar? Jumbo had incredible bad luck in 2021, still Vingegaard didn't lose any time to Pogi from the second week onwards. And you can hardly say that everything went perfectly for them in 2022 either...

Of course with every GT win there's a bit of luck involved. Firstly, you preferably do not crash (which Vingegaard actually did). Secondly, you don't want to get sick. Thirdly, you'd rather not have half of your team drop out. Etc. etc. But Pogi so far has had his share of luck as well, so once again, what goes for Vingo also goes for Pogi.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Once again you're just picking and choosing to fit your argument. Because if Vingegaard can only win the Tour if everything goes his way, doesn't the same go for Pogacar? Jumbo had incredible bad luck in 2021, still Vingegaard didn't lose any time to Pogi from the second week onwards. And you can hardly say that everything went perfectly for them in 2022 either...

Of course with every GT win there's a bit of luck involved. Firstly, you preferably do not crash (which Vingegaard actually did). Secondly, you don't want to get sick. Thirdly, you'd rather not have half of your team drop out. Etc. etc. But Pogi so far has had his share of luck as well, so once again, what goes for Vingo also goes for Pogi.

Are you pretending a stacked Ineos team with Thomas Geraint, Carapaz, Castroviejo, Teo Geoghegan Hart, Kwiatkowski, Richie Porte, Luke Rowe and Van Baarle didn't exist in TdF2021?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

You're acting like Vingegaard had 7 guys to help him. If you've watched the Tour in its entirety, as apparently you did, you'd know that he had only one climbing domestique left: Sepp Kuss. His team wasn't that much stronger uphill than UAE's. They just rode more smartly.

Also, if not having a lot of help counts for Pogacar, why doesn't it count for Vingegaard on Peyragudes?

Vingegaard's team was clearly the strongest. I don't think you can dispute that, even if Majka, Bjerg and McNulty stepped up on occasion.

Who knows what would've happened because he bonked which but 2 domestiques is better than 1.

We cannot forget the wider picture, he didn't only lose Laengen and Bennett for 11 but also for the rest of the tour and later also Majka for the Hautacam and Peyragudes.

Pogi lost the Tour on Granon and wouldn't have been able to close that gap afterwards even if he had had a better team. However if he hadn't bonked that day, it obviously could have been a different race, but Vingegaard still looked like he couldn't be cracked, but we'll obviously never know.

 

[theyoungest]

Are you pretending a stacked Ineos team with Thomas Geraint, Carapaz, Castroviejo, Teo Geoghegan Hart, Kwiatkowski, Richie Porte, Luke Rowe and Van Baarle didn't exist in TdF2021?

Huh? Are you UK Cycling Expert by any chance?

 

[Andy schleck]

What are you trying to argue? Hautacam was Van Aert and Vingegaard vs Pogacar

Rafal Majka also abandoned before stage 17 because of a crash and couldn't be there for Hautacam and Peyragudes stages.

Listen, mcnulty did all the necessary job for pogacar on Peyragudes stage, but pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. On hautacam's stage, uae did the necessary job until middle of spandelles but again, pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. Then, on hautacam pogacar was spending the same or less energy of Vingegaard, because he was in the wheels of kuss, van aert and vingegaard. Jumbo hardened the race, so pogacar could have followed vingegaard after his attack or counterattack, but simply he didn't have the legs. Majka wouldn't made any difference because his leader couldn't drop Vingegaard. If majka was there, he would do the same that jumbo did on hautacam, make the race hard, but it wouldn't make difference, because in all 21 stages of the tour, pogacar could never drop Vingegaard.

The most strong rider won, just like in 2021 and 2020 pogacar was the most stronger rider.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Listen, mcnulty did all the necessary job for pogacar on Peyragudes stage, but pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. On hautacam's stage, uae did the necessary job until middle of spandelles but again, pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. Then, on hautacam pogacar was spending the same or less energy of Vingegaard, because he was in the wheels of kuss, van aert and vingegaard. Jumbo hardened the race, so pogacar could have followed vingegaard after his attack or counterattack, but simply he didn't have the legs. Majka wouldn't made any difference because his leader couldn't drop Vingegaard. If majka was there, he would do the same that jumbo did on hautacam, make the race hard, but it wouldn't make difference, because in all 21 stages of the tour, pogacar could never drop Vingegaard.

The most strong rider won, just like in 2021 and 2020 pogacar was the most stronger rider.

That's not a very godd reasoning. The assertion "the stronger rider wins" does not account for stupid wastes of energy that deplete one rider and make it weaker.