Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Peyroteo94]

The climb wasn't always riding at hard tempo by jumbo, and it's a lot of different ride the climb in a hard tempo after a fast stage, than riding at hard tempo after the peloton doing cycle tourism until the bottom of puy de dome.

But what about stage 6? They completly ride a hard race until and on Tourmalet but they couldn't gap Pogi. Pogacar's ride in Marie Blanque was a big outlier. In normal circunstances, he would have followed Vingegaard. Why wasn't he able to do it, it is a big mystery to me (and probably all of us).

 

[Cookster15]

I don’t know. Maybe after stage 17 we have run out of excuses? But I am enjoying this so far. Last year after Granon every day was like twisting the knife.

 

[Andy schleck]

But what about stage 6? They completly ride a hard race until and on Tourmalet but they couldn't gap Pogi. Pogacar's ride in Marie Blanque was a big outlier. In normal circunstances, he would have followed Vingegaard. Why wasn't he able to do it, it is a big mystery to me (and probably all of us).

Until la mongie the pace was really slow. Again, jumbo tatics were wrong. They should had put a strong pace since the beggining of tourmalet.

 

[skippo12]

Vingegaard does better when the stage is super hard. He is a man of endurance. Look what happened on stage of marie blanque. The stage was very fast, so pogacar wasn't fresh on marie blanque, and then vingegaard made the difference. Today the stage was very easy until the end, and again, jumbo made other stupid mistake. It was perfect for pogacar. He was fresh and he's got more explosion than Vingegaard, and it was the little difference in the end.

I believe the stages in the alps are better for Vingegaard, but jumbo needs to ride a hard tempo. That's how it was in the last tour 2022. When the stage is fast, vingegaard is superior. He is better in terms of endurance.

Pogacar is doing the numbers that he usually does.

Vingegaard has never shown anything on a 200km + stage or in a classic. He dropped Pogacar on multi climb high altitude stages. So it is not about endurance. Looking at their track record a short hard paced multi mountain stage is probably the best case scenario for VIngegaard. Force Pogacar into the longest possible W/kg contest.

 

[Nick2413]

My question is this. If it’s so obvious Jumbo knows Pog will always take time on these “easier” stages, do they think pacing the climbs is helping limit how much time he can gain? Otherwise why not put the ball in his court so he has to do it all on his own?

 

[Peyroteo94]

There are more bonus seconds ramaining on climbs (bar MTF)?

 

[Andy schleck]

Vingegaard has never shown anything on a 200km + stage or in a classic. He dropped Pogacar on multi climb high altitude stages. So it is not about endurance. Looking at their track record a short hard paced multi mountain stage is probably the best case scenario for VIngegaard. Force Pogacar into the longest possible W/kg contest.

Vingegaard already said in interviews "the hard, the better for him". If you look at the stages that vingegaard drop pogacar last year's tour and on stage 5 oh this year's tout, the pace was always hard before his attack. Jumbo can't let pogacar arrive fresh in the last kms.

The fact that hindley was in the breakaway on stage 5, was a bless for Jumbo. UAE paced hard all stage until col marie blanque, causing fatigue to pogacar before the last climb.

 

[Andy schleck]

There are more bonus seconds ramaining on climbs (bar MTF)?

col joux plane.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Vingegaard already said in interviews "the hard, the better for him". If you look at the stages that vingegaard drop pogacar last year's tour and on stage 5 oh this year's tout, the pace was always hard before his attack. Jumbo can't let pogacar arrive fresh in the last kms.

The fact that hindley was in the breakaway on stage 5, was a bless for Jumbo. UAE paced hard all stage until col marie blanque, causing fatigue to pogacar before the last climb.

So you really think Pogacar of stage 5 is the same as the one we saw today? The sample is so small you can't really know if Vingegaard is really better than Pogacar on hard stages.

 

[Andy schleck]

So you really think Pogacar of stage 5 is the same as the one we saw today? The sample is so small you can't really know if Vingegaard is really better than Pogacar on hard stages.

If you look exclusively to the last 4 km of marie blanque and to the last 4 Km of today, Pogacar did the same power. 6.7/6.8 w/kg.

If you look to all puy de dome climb, pogacar did 6.3 w/kg in 35 min, like he did on prati di tivo at TA 2021. Pogacar is performing to is usual level.
Regarding vingegaard, i think jumbo tatics are not benefiting him.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If you look exclusively to the last 4 km of marie blanque and to the last 4 Km of today, Pogacar did the same power. 6.7/6.8 w/kg.

If you look to all puy de dome climb, pogacar did 6.3 w/kg in 35 min, like he did on prati di tivo at TA 2021. Pogacar is performing to is usual level.
Regarding vingegaard, i think jumbo tatics are not benefiting him.

So, for you, Pogacar is the same when Vingegaard is clearly one step below from what he showed on Marie Blanque but you are blaming jumbo? That doesn't make any sense. Vingegaard can't put the same numbers even on easier stages and you are blaming jumbo...
And don't know how you came up with those numbers. How do you know Pogi did 6.7 w/kg today and 6.3 in 35 minutes?

 

[bNator]

If you look exclusively to the last 4 km of marie blanque and to the last 4 Km of today, Pogacar did the same power. 6.7/6.8 w/kg.

If you look to all puy de dome climb, pogacar did 6.3 w/kg in 35 min, like he did on prati di tivo at TA 2021. Pogacar is performing to is usual level.
Regarding vingegaard, i think jumbo tatics are not benefiting him.

But you’re contradicting yourself. You say that today, Pogacar did the same power average as on stage 5 last 4 km yet Jonas did higher number on stage 5 which was ridden faster. So if todays stage was ridden faster, Jonas would put higher numbers than he did when it was ridden slower?

what your numbers show, is one of the following.
1. Numbers are incorrect and therefore irrelevant
2. Numbers are correct but the performance varies so much during the Tour due to accumulated fatigue they are agin, irrelevant.

there was a stage with long climbs that was ridden hard and Pogi beat Vingegaard and now we‘ve got a stage with short climbs that is ridden easy where Pog again beat Vingegaard. So the only conclusion is - Jonas has a chance on short climbs, if the race is ridden hard. Which again, given Pogacars classics pedigree is bollocks.

We just need to face it that there is no rule. Once one of them is in better form, he will prevail in any circumstance…

 

[Andy schleck]

So, for you, Pogacar is the same when Vingegaard is clearly one step below from what he showed on Marie Blanque but you are blaming jumbo? That doesn't make any sense. Vingegaard can't put the same numbers even on easier stages and you are blaming jumbo...
And don't know how you came up with those numbers. How do you know Pogi did 6.7 w/kg today and 6.3 in 35 minutes?

I think a irregular and slow pace benefits vingegaard before the last kms. But i must admit you are also right talking about vingegaard a step below today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676641839972057098

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1676641839972057098

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678091354218414082

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1678091354218414082


Like i said, if you look to pogacar performance, he was today in the same level of marie blanque.
I know sometimes it's difficult to compare different climbs in different stages, but the last kms were very similars.

 

[bNator]

I don't think a irregular and slow pace benefits vingegaard before the last kms. But i must admit you are also right talking about vingegaard a step below today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676641839972057098

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1676641839972057098

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678091354218414082

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1678091354218414082


Like i said, if you look to pogacar performance, he was today in the same level of marie blanque.
I know sometimes it's difficult to compare different climbs in different stages, but the last kms were very similars.

Unless these guys get data directly from their power meters, it’s useless. They don’t even know their exact weight, the wind is extremely difficult to model correctly. It’s very easy to imagine the level of uncertainty being 5%, for instance. Which is 0,3 W/kg at this level…

 

[Andy schleck]

Unless these guys get data directly from their power meters, it’s useless. They don’t even know their exact weight, the wind is extremely difficult to model correctly. It’s very easy to imagine the level of uncertainty being 5%, for instance. Which is 0,3 W/kg at this level…

They use a standard weight. I trust this guy because his results are similar to the highly regarded ammattipyoraily.

 

[Peyroteo94]

But I don't believe for a second this is the same Pogacar we saw on Marie Blanque. Not in a million years!

 

[Andy schleck]

But you’re contradicting yourself. You say that today, Pogacar did the same power average as on stage 5 last 4 km yet Jonas did higher number on stage 5 which was ridden faster. So if todays stage was ridden faster, Jonas would put higher numbers than he did when it was ridden slower?

what your numbers show, is one of the following.
1. Numbers are incorrect and therefore irrelevant
2. Numbers are correct but the performance varies so much during the Tour due to accumulated fatigue they are agin, irrelevant.

there was a stage with long climbs that was ridden hard and Pogi beat Vingegaard and now we‘ve got a stage with short climbs that is ridden easy where Pog again beat Vingegaard. So the only conclusion is - Jonas has a chance on short climbs, if the race is ridden hard. Which again, given Pogacars classics pedigree is bollocks.

We just need to face it that there is no rule. Once one of them is in better form, he will prevail in any circumstance…

I already changed my opinion after what @Peyroteo94 said. I was wrong. I was contradicting a bit.
I agree when he says that vingegaard was one steep below.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

One could ague weakness behind the fence observed by defending champion and his compatriot Kuss.
In race thread I think I mentioned the obvious, that Kuss faded way too early causing a situation different from the Col de Marie Blanc with Jonas + Sepp both having a +good day, Tadej a bit of an off day (first 'real' climb in first real race test since LBL).

And today maybe the reverse, backed by post stage interview with Kuss, immediately apologizing for his sub standard performance not being able to help Vingegaard with a pull.
And again backed by that Vingegaard stayed reluctant when Kuss was gone.

But as time went, we went into Pogi-proper : last 1.4k.

If Jonas really had an off day, Pogi would've done huge damage, comparable with Jonas' gap building on Col de Marie Blanc.

So really status quo, I'm imressed with Jonas keeping up with constant margin to Pogi for the last 1200 meters on pure Pogi grounds.

That said. While Pogi being on Sierra Nevada training camp, I've followed his Strava data. And it's not just normal altitude training camp. It was also one (or more) full pull Pico Velota +3300m above sea level attacks.

Observing Jonas this year it's clear he has trained on the explosive anaerobic part.
But evidently had no effect vs. Pogi anyway.
For his part, I'm just worried that it's been at the expense of his core climbing skills.

Where the situation on Pogi side seems more bright IMO.
Mattias Skjelmose was interviewed in Danish TV2's interim on location evening studio and when asked about a bid for a Tour winner he was very convinced that Pogi would win the Tour. This based on the fact that he hadn't had any proper race days since the LBL and was just getting his race legs into the Tour.

From above perspectives I don't think Pogi will loose +2mins on Col de la Loze.

I don't think Jonas Vingegaard had a 'bad day' on Puy-de-Dôme stage. His last 1200m effort should back this up.
I just think we're going to see a whole new standard of 'high' from his closest opponent.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I don't think a irregular and slow pace benefits vingegaard before the last kms. But i must admit you are also right talking about vingegaard a step below today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676641839972057098

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1676641839972057098

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678091354218414082

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1678091354218414082


Like i said, if you look to pogacar performance, he was today in the same level of marie blanque.
I know sometimes it's difficult to compare different climbs in different stages, but the last kms were very similars.

Apart from Kuss added quite more support on Col de Marie Blanc.
So many unknowns to make direct comparison (wind, exact weight, etc, etc), but admit this seems to come close on a general scale.
If Kuss didn't fade on Puy-de-Dôme, general numbers here could equal those on Marie Blanc..maybe...depends on how further we think Jonas could go with longer Marie Blanc-like heavy effort from Kuss. We'll never know.

 

[JosefK]

Pog is fading. On stage 6 he put 24 seconds into Vingegaard. On stage 9 he only put 8 seconds into Vingo. Trend is down.

 

[BillyTwinner]

Nobody is talking that last year was the same?
Doctor of Jumbo prepared Jonas for the second part on Tour , there He will reach his peak/ form

 

[Andy schleck]

Nobody is talking that last year was the same?
Doctor of Jumbo prepared Jonas for the second part on Tour , there He will reach his peak/ form

Vingegaard krijgt tikje: "Maar wat nog komt ligt mij beter dan deze eerste week"

Jonas Vingegaard is na de eerste week van de Tour de France de drager van de gele trui. In de negende etappe naar Puy de Dôme zag hij zijn voorsprong van 25 seconden op Tadej Pogačar wel teruglopen tot 17 seconden, maar daar maakt hij zich niet druk om. “Dat ik na de eerste week […]

www.wielerflits.nl

 

[Andy schleck]

Pog is fading. On stage 6 he put 24 seconds into Vingegaard. On stage 9 he only put 8 seconds into Vingo. Trend is down.

That's ridiculous because pogacar was great on stage 5, just like he was yesterday.

 

[Salvarani]

I think a irregular and slow pace benefits vingegaard before the last kms. But i must admit you are also right talking about vingegaard a step below today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676641839972057098

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1676641839972057098

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678091354218414082

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1678091354218414082


Like i said, if you look to pogacar performance, he was today in the same level of marie blanque.
I know sometimes it's difficult to compare different climbs in different stages, but the last kms were very similars.

If anything it looks like Pog rode at those numbers he can do and was fairly consistent. Stayed within his limits.

Vinge just had a super-day on stage 5. Maybe he can have it again. Maybe he had to pay for that effort, the rest of week.

 

[Blobs]

That's ridiculous because pogacar was great on stage 5, just like he was yesterday.

No, look here:

Tadej Pogačar Drops Vingegaard on Puy de Dôme | Tour de France 2023 Stage 9 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar is in the best shape of his career once again dropped Jonas Vingegaard, this time on a climb that suited the Dane perfectly. The UAE Team Emirates superstar is flying and the battle for the yellow jersey will be very exciting in the coming two weeks.

lanternerouge.com

Pogacar had never been above the red line, before yesterday. It was, by some distance, his best performance ever.

Stage 5 was in line with his performances the previous years, but yesterday was way above

Top 10 Climbers for the 2023 Season - Lanterne Rouge

The 2022 cycling season was full of top level climbing performances with many records broken and new climbers bursting onto the scene. The list of Top 10 climbing performances of 2022 was dominated by Evenepoel and Vingegaard but will the same riders dominate the long ascents in WorldTour races...

lanternerouge.com