Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Peyroteo94]

There could be some kind of rivalry between Visma & UAE (at least for some time) as Vingo can feel the effects of the Tour and may be below his best. I still think his suboptimal level should be enough to win OFC. There is an abyss between him & the rest of the world.

1. Pogacar
A decent gap, not huge.
2. Vingegaard
Massive gap, a world of difference
3. The rest

I will put space between them now:
1. Pogacar

2. Vingegaard







3. The rest

 

[P4rthen0n]

There could be some kind of rivalry between Visma & UAE (at least for some time) as Vingo can feel the effects of the Tour and may be below his best. I still think his suboptimal level should be enough to win OFC. There is an abyss between him & the rest of the world.

Vingegaard may have tired legs, but both UAE co-leaders are coming from injuries that forced them to DNF: João Almeida crashed in the Tour and Juan Ayuso was stung by a bee in the Giro (joking; he crashed too).
So all of them might be going in sub optimal form for all we know.

Anyway, all things considered, and until someone other than Pogacar (and Kuss) beats him in a 3 week GT, Vingegaard is the clear favourite to win the Vuelta. There's no denying that.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

I actually don't think he will be as great in the Vuelta as many think.
He was good but clearly below his best in the 2023 Vuelta where he had a really bad ITT, seemed subpar in the first half and really only began to shine in the last week, where he was basically beating a GC field that had already given up on competing against Visma.
And it's not like he looked specifically strong coming out of this Tour, obviously conditions played a role but the overall watts in these last few stages were not impressive.
Obviously even his second best level will be enough to be competitive but with other teams having stronger numbers (UAE) and some opportunists like Carapaz floating around I don't think the race will be tailormade for him.

 

[Rou]

Vingegaard can become the first Dane to win the Vuelta and next year the first Dane to win the Giro.
This should motivate him.

 

[James M]

There could be some kind of rivalry between Visma & UAE (at least for some time) as Vingo can feel the effects of the Tour and may be below his best. I still think his suboptimal level should be enough to win OFC. There is an abyss between him & the rest of the world.

1. Pogacar
A decent gap, not huge.
2. Vingegaard
Massive gap, a world of difference
3. The rest

I will put space between them now:
1. Pogacar

2. Vingegaard







3. The rest

You two still dont understand Vingegaard is declining relative to others? Cant say im surprised, didnt rely on results and signs all year so why start now, at that point no results matter, its all about sticking to the past. Gapping Onley by 3 second when he went all in on Queen stage, Yeah you will continue to get surpised very soon, just wait.

Question is will we have to listen to you two screaming how close the next Tour will be for another year just to be not close at all? while all logic implied the gap wasnt exactly close.. Lets see time will tell.

 

[Peyroteo94]

You two still dont understand Vingegaard is declining relative to others? Cant say im surprised, didnt rely on results and signs all year so why start now, at that point no results matter, its all about sticking to the past. Gapping Onley by 3 second when he went all in on Queen stage, Yeah you will continue to get surpised very soon, just wait.

Question is will we have to listen to you two screaming how close the next Tour will be for another year just to be not close at all? while all logic implied the gap wasnt exactly close.. Lets see time will tell.

No, he gapped Onley by more than 2 minutes on Madeleine IIRC.
The difference for others was huge, more than between Pogacar and Vingegaard

 

[James M]

The difference for others was huge, more than between Pogacar and Vingegaard

Almeida wasn't there, but he beat him all year in MTF, has he done that before? He also beat him in the TT during the Tour, for instance.

I'm not saying Vingegaard isn't the second best, that's factual, and he obviously is. But how big that gap is between him and Almeida, based on results and numbers, definitely isn't determined. I’d gladly like to see that play out before you two deciding prematurely again which seem to be a pattern with this guy now with you two, atleast when logic and numbers say its not that big.

 

[Peyroteo94]

We dont count the finish line now? He tried it all and emptied himself, meanwhile gapped Onley 3 sec on Loze, thats just fact, sorry I wish I could say the opposite but not impressed. Saying Vingegaard by now is regressing relative to others in the sense he dont improve as much is just a fact and shouldnt be hard to say.

Hopefully we dont have to listen to you two screaming for a whole year how close it will be, based on ancient times and rather base it on results we see on the road this and next year, maybe lesson learned that looking behind will leave you surprised or maybe not. Thats all.

Context is important to mention. If he raced against Onley, he would gain 4 minutes on Onley and you are ignoring this just to fit your narrative.
Maybe Vingegaard is not improving anymore but he still is by far the second best GT rider and the gap to the third is bigger than than the gap to Pogacar. It's not difficult to see that.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Almeida wasn't there, but he beat him all year in MTF, has he done that before? He also beat him in the TT during the Tour, for instance.

I'm not saying Vingegaard isn't the second best, that's factual, and he obviously is. But how big that gap is between him and Almeida, based on results and numbers, definitely isn't determined. I’d gladly like to see that play out before you two deciding prematurely again which seem to be a pattern with this guy now with you two, atleast when logic and numbers say its not that big.

I wish you are right but I'm afraid you aren't. Vingegaard will win this Vuelta quite easily (at least a 2' gap)

 

[YavorD]

We dont count the finish line now? He tried it all and emptied himself, meanwhile gapped Onley 3 sec on Loze, thats just fact, sorry I wish I could say the opposite but not impressed. Saying Vingegaard by now is regressing relative to others in the sense he dont improve as much is just a fact and shouldnt be hard to say.

You can't ignore what happened early in the stage just because it doesn't suit your narrative.

If you go by Loze, then Pogacar declined as well, because he only put 13 seconds on Onley

 

[James M]

You can't ignore what happened early in the stage just because it doesn't suit your narrative.

If you go by Loze, then Pogacar declined as well, because he only put 13 seconds on Onley

Wrong but you'd be right if he had kept that pace until the finish at Loze. I mean, let’s say Remco goes all-in on Madeleine and treats it like it's the final climb, but ends up 10 minutes behind on Loze. Are we then supposed to say he's insane based on that and that hes improved and now can climb? (bad example but still point stand and no reference to Jonas btw)

It doesn’t work like that it’s about what you spend and what’s left at the end that counts. Just like a bank account, it's not about what you splurge 1k one night if the account has 10billions left.

Second point: sure, that would be valid if the onus were on Pogi to go all-in with the attack and did in order to claw back time.

 

[Peyroteo94]

You see but then back to my point, and regarding your last post, Onley yes, Jonas is leaps better results show us that, my point was Almeida which has dropped him all year and beat him in TT, not Onley and Lipo.

Well if your right here 2min is not that much which was my only point, effectively proving my point? That you saying its heavens better than the rest, only thing i objected to not that hes the second best. Point is: prematurely deciding again he is heavens better than Almeida when numbers and logic tells us otherwice now that was all, not that hes not the second best.

I def wont be surprsied he beat Almeida I think so too but question is more how much now, hes not that super impressive and meanwhile ALmeida has improved alot allegedly. My point is really simple, based on results all year, I just want to see how big that gap is betwen those two(not that jonas isnt better neceseraily) before prematurely judging that, nothing else.

In Angliru you will have an answer.
But please, what a cheap argument to use when you say Vingegaard gained 3 seconds on Onley, ignoring completely the way Vingo put him 2 minutes on Madeleine.

 

[YavorD]

Wrong but you'd be right if he had kept that pace until the finish at Loze. I mean, let’s say Remco goes all-in on Madeleine and treats it like it's the final climb, but ends up 10 minutes behind on Loze. Are we then supposed to say he's insane based on that and that hes improved and now can climb? (bad example but still point stand and no reference to Jonas btw)

It doesn’t work like that it’s about what you spend and what’s left at the end that counts. Just like a bank account, it's not about what you splurge 1k one night if the account has 10billions left.

Second point: sure, that would be valid if the onus were on Pogi to go all-in with the attack and did in order to claw back time.

The point is, Vingegaard didn't even try on Loze, let alone to gap Onley. So you can't judge on that climb..

 

[James M]

In Angliru you will have an answer.
But please, what a cheap argument to use when you say Vingegaard gained 3 seconds on Onley, ignoring completely the way Vingo put him 2 minutes on Madeleine.

Fair, context matter indeed, and indeed cheap argument maybe (he is alot better than Onley, Lipo and all that not saying otherwice its super easy to see) I respect him, hes obviously good, thats not my point!

My points is this and this only: Im just objecting to prematurely saying he is heavens better than Almeida when results now all year along with numbers suggest otherwice and think that should be taken into the equation oppose to the past, nothing else! Not that hes worse than Almeida this year, that would indeed suprise me too btw.

 

[James M]

The point is, Vingegaard didn't even try on Loze, let alone to gap Onley. So you can't judge on that climb..

its still the stage as a whole that matters. He tried at the end at Loze too btw, but fair, cheap argument but Jonas is hold in higher regards and thereby judged on that by me atleast and was more to say it didnt move me that much in that sense.(not that he isnt better than those)

As to my point see post above, im not objecting he is heavens better than everyone who finished the Tour, thats easy to see, nor that hes the second best either necessarily. But only how much better he is than Almeida knowing Jonas has regressed somewhat relative to others and Almeida allegedely improved I think its premature to decide that from everything we know now oppose to the past, and a way of looking behind and not to the current situation thats all.

 

[P4rthen0n]

My points is this and this only: Im just objecting to prematurely saying he is heavens better than Almeida when results now all year along with numbers suggest otherwice and think that should be taken into the equation oppose to the past, nothing else! Not that hes worse than Almeida this year, that would indeed suprise me too btw.

I get what you're saying, but I have a really hard time picturing Almeida or anybody else being able to stick to Vingegaard's wheel if he launches an attack after a Visma train lead out in the Vuelta. Almeida will yoyo (if he's in top top shape, maybe he gets back eventually), Ayuso or Carapaz would crack soon after and most others will probably just ignore Vingegaard's attack.

And I also don't think there's a better GC TTer in the Vuelta than Vingegaard.

So it's hard to figure out who can dethrone Vingegaard under normal circunstances, over 3 weeks.

And to make matters worse, most serious contenders for the top10 GC DNFed recently due to crashes or ilness (Almeida, Ayuso, Landa, Hindley, Ciccone, Mas) or already have 1 GT in their legs (Bernal, Gall, Pellizari, Gee, Pidcock).

Ofc it's possible... it's just not really likely to happen.

 

[James M]

I get what you're saying, but I have a really hard time picturing Almeida or anybody else being able to stick to Vingegaard's wheel if he launches an attack after a Visma train lead out in the Vuelta. Almeida will yoyo (if he's in top top shape, maybe he gets back eventually), Ayuso or Carapaz would crack soon after and most others will probably just ignore Vingegaard's attack.

And I also don't think there's a better GC TTer in the Vuelta than Vingegaard.

So it's hard to figure out who can dethrone Vingegaard under normal circunstances, over 3 weeks.

And to make matters worse, most serious contenders for the top10 GC DNFed recently due to crashes or ilness (Almeida, Ayuso, Landa, Hindley, Ciccone, Mas) or already have 1 GT in their legs (Bernal, Gall, Pellizari, Gee, Pidcock).

Ofc it's possible... it's just not really likely to happen.

Im not disagreeing with anything of that which what you said, I just more so highlighted and pointing out Krzyszstof and Peyroteo screaming for a full year the same thing already before the Tour; how close Tour will be when numbers and logic always implied it wasnt close at all and now the same here, regarding opposed to judge it on results and numbers we see this year instead of the past which are irrelevant...Its a pattern here now.

I agree with everything you say here btw, I dont find it really likely at all Almeida would beat him, would indeed surprise me too! Just that how much better he is knowing the things we know and the results weve seen and numbers we know, deciding he is heavens better is premature, nothing else. I much rather prefer to objectively gauging someone level this way based on current situation, results and nubmers which never lie oppose to the past which will always leave people surprised.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

You two still dont understand Vingegaard is declining relative to others? Cant say im surprised, didnt rely on results and signs all year so why start now, at that point no results matter, its all about sticking to the past. Gapping Onley by 3 second when he went all in on Queen stage, Yeah you will continue to get surpised very soon, just wait.

Question is will we have to listen to you two screaming how close the next Tour will be for another year just to be not close at all? while all logic implied the gap wasnt exactly close.. Lets see time will tell.

Man, are you ok? Vingegaard pushed 6.5 w/kg for freaking 55 minutes on Ventoux and Pogacar couldn't successfully attack him there after kilometers on his wheel. He crushed the rest with his attacks on Madeleine or Superbagneres. And you talk about anyone else (besides Pogacar) being close to him? Don't make me laugh. Look at GC gaps at the Tour and remember that it could've been even bigger if they didn't play cat & mouse with Pogacar in the Alps.

 

[Red Rick]

Man, are you ok? Vingegaard pushed 6.5 w/kg for freaking 55 minutes on Ventoux and Pogacar couldn't successfully attack him there after kilometers on his wheel. He crushed the rest with his attacks on Madeleine or Superbagneres. And you talk about anyone else (besides Pogacar) being close to him? Don't make me laugh. Look at GC gaps at the Tour and remember that it could've been even bigger if they didn't play cat & mouse with Pogacar in the Alps.

Pretty much.

If Pogacar and Vingegaard aren't tasked with racing each other but instead to gap the #3 in GC by 15 minutes they would just go and do it.

 

[James M]

Man, are you ok? Vingegaard pushed 6.5 w/kg for freaking 55 minutes on Ventoux and Pogacar couldn't successfully attack him there after kilometers on his wheel. He crushed the rest with his attacks on Madeleine or Superbagneres. And you talk about anyone else (besides Pogacar) being close to him? Don't make me laugh. Look at GC gaps at the Tour and remember that it could've been even bigger if they didn't play cat & mouse with Pogacar in the Alps.

Yet here we are, your the one prematurely screaming for a full year how close this Tour would be when number, results always showcased something different all year, and look how that turned out? your the one suprised not me.

Im also talking about Almeida, not anyone else, read again, so no need to talk about that. Jonas is clearly miles better than anyone who completed the Tour, that’s obvious to see and I obviously agree.

I’m simply highlighting that you're prematurely insisting on something being true cause clearly that is what you want, opposed to rather just following all the results and numbers we have now oppose to results in the past and looking behind. It's the same as before the Tour, despite all the results and data clearly suggesting otherwise. Im also not saying Jonas isnt better than Almeida per se not what im saying, that would suprise me too, only that how much better he now is than him with everything we know from several factors suggest that gap isnt that big anymore knowing Jonas has regressed somewhat relative to others and Almeida allegedely improved. Its not hard to be real.

 

[Gargamel35]

I don't like the guy but it's clear he's second best GT racer and with a very nice margin towards the rest.
He's only problem is Pogačar and when he goes all out to follow or attack him, he blows and others get closer.
If there is no Pogačar in a race, Jonas would do a lot better compared to others.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Motivation likely being the key here, will there be strong motivation going forward and potential questions to be answered, regarding doing any more serious racing outside the Tour. So far Jonas was mostly into Tour, finishing second twice, that likely changes things, doubt that Visma to just settle with that. Will now team try to transform into a single goal Tour team, or not?

 

[Jan the Man]

Great to see him competing at La Vuelta. Will be interesting to see how he comes out of the Tour this year. In 2023 he was clearly very strong and would have won but for the fact Kuss was in red, but was also a step down from his Tour numbers.

Nice to see him going for other races and the calibre of rider he is it would be nice if he went for the Giro too if he adds the Vuelta.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So Jonas lost Froome, will be harder now for him.

 

[YavorD]

Did Froome really retired?
It was kinda fitting that Vingegaard's biggest fan was Froome.