Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Mountain Sprinter

[Froome]

Of course one is lucky not to crash and to ride against riders that had setbacks or not to ride against them because they had to leave a race.
Yes, it's a fact that Vingo was lucky in that matter in the two previous Tours.
In 2022 had Roglic not crashed (twice) and tactics would have been very different. In 2023 Pogacar crashed in LBL. No one is saying that the outcome would have been different, so calm down your triggering; only that luck plays a part in the sport and Vingo has been reaping its fruits.

Stop pretending Roglic is at the same level of Vingegaard in Grand Tours. He is not even at the level of Pogacar and he was in the same team of Vingegaard. They weren't rivals in 2022. Don't be so emotional.

This is about Pogacar vs Vingegaard.

If Roglic didn’t crash in 2022, Vingegaard would had won even more easily the Tour, because he would help Vingegaard winning the Tour until the end.

 

[YavorD]

Stop pretending Roglic is at the same level of Vingegaard in Grand Tours. He is not even at the level of Pogacar and he was in the same team of Vingegaard. They weren't rivals in 2022. Don't be so emotional.

This is about Pogacar vs Vingegaard.

If Roglic didn’t crash in 2022, Vingegaard would had won even more easily the Tour, because he would help Vingegaard winning the Tour until the end.

If Roglic doesn't crash he probably ends the cobbled stage with a minute over Vingegaard (if I remember when he had a flat Jumbo didn't support him fully, leaving some people with Roglic. It was only after Roglic's crash when Vingegaard got a lot of support , allowing him to close the gap to Pogacar).
And then, depending on the balance between Pog and Rog Vingegaard may never get the chance to ride for himself.*


*This is not to say Vingegaard wasn't stronger. But if Roglic had advantage over Vingegaard that Tour and stage 11 mainly is very different.

 

[Netserk]

If Roglic doesn't crash he probably ends the cobbled stage with a minute over Vingegaard (if I remember when he had a flat Jumbo didn't support him fully, leaving some people with Roglic. It was only after Roglic's crash when Vingegaard got a lot of support , allowing him to close the gap to Pogacar).
And then, depending on the balance between Pog and Rog Vingegaard may never get the chance to ride for himself.*


*This is not to say Vingegaard wasn't stronger. But if Roglic had advantage over Vingegaard that Tour and stage 11 mainly is very different.

Would neutral luck not also nullify Vingegaard's puncture?

 

[bNator]

Stop pretending Roglic is at the same level of Vingegaard in Grand Tours. He is not even at the level of Pogacar and he was in the same team of Vingegaard. They weren't rivals in 2022. Don't be so emotional.

This is about Pogacar vs Vingegaard.

If Roglic didn’t crash in 2022, Vingegaard would had won even more easily the Tour, because he would help Vingegaard winning the Tour until the end.

Well, at least in 2023, luck definitely was on Jonas's side. Pogacar had broken his wrist what is equivalent 2 weeks after Remco and Jonas got their injuries this year and we all know it's impossible to claim for any of the two they will even be at the Tour let alone be there at 100%. Even Roglic's boss has doubts whether he will not be affected by the crash, and he hasnt even broken anything...

Given that Pog was pretty much Vinge's equal in the first two weeks, his last week drop could be down to his sub-optimal prep and if that was the case (which is just one of the possibilities), then Jonas was lucky.

Regarding 2022, I agree: If Roglic had something to do with Vingegaard winning, then him staying in the race would have even greater effect. Provided Roglic was not stronger than Jonas and in 2022, which I don't think he was. 2021-level Roglic racing in 2022 TdF might be a different story, of course...

 

[Elos Anjos]

Stop pretending Roglic is at the same level of Vingegaard in Grand Tours. He is not even at the level of Pogacar and he was in the same team of Vingegaard. They weren't rivals in 2022. Don't be so emotional.

This is about Pogacar vs Vingegaard.

If Roglic didn’t crash in 2022, Vingegaard would had won even more easily the Tour, because he would help Vingegaard winning the Tour until the end.

You're the one being emotional. And with very weak arguments, as usual.
No one was arguing about the levels between Vingo and Roglic, but the fact that the fishmonger was lucky in that 1) he didn't crash, 2) his teammate crashed and helped him;
If you're stating that teammate Roglic's demise didn't have a part in clearing up things for Jumbo, you're blind.
JV approached Tour 2022 with two leaders. One leader crashed and rode for the other, triggering and baiting Pogacar in the process. This outcome was lucky for Vingo has lucky can be: because otherwise Roglic would't have rode like that and JV would have to split forces for their two leaders.

 

[Netserk]

Well, at least in 2023, luck definitely was on Jonas's side. Pogacar had broken his wrist what is equivalent 2 weeks after Remco and Jonas got their injuries this year and we all know it's impossible to claim for any of the two they will even be at the Tour let alone be there at 100%. Even Roglic's boss has doubts whether he will not be affected by the crash, and he hasnt even broken anything...

Given that Pog was pretty much Vinge's equal in the first two weeks, his last week drop could be down to his sub-optimal prep and if that was the case (which is just one of the possibilities), then Jonas was lucky.

Regarding 2022, I agree: If Roglic had something to do with Vingegaard winning, then him staying in the race would have even greater effect. Provided Roglic was not stronger than Jonas and in 2022, which I don't think he was. 2021-level Roglic racing in 2022 TdF might be a different story, of course...

Pogi had greater luck in 2021 than Vingegaard had in 2023. So far, Pogi has been the luckiest Tour contender.

 

[YavorD]

Would neutral luck not also nullify Vingegaard's puncture?

Possibly,.
But even then for what we know Roglic and Vingegaard had an equal status back in TdF 2022. One could even say Roglic was the de-facto leader. So if Roglic isn't much weaker than Pogacar, the Tour is very different and Vingegaard EVENTUALLY doesn't get the chance to show he is the strongest.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Pogi had greater luck in 2021 than Vingegaard had in 2023. So far, Pogi has been the luckiest Tour contender.

The point being that staying in the race is already lucky, but I fail at grasping how does your lucky-o-meter works.

 

[Froome]

You're the one being emotional. And with very weak arguments, as usual.
No one was arguing about the levels between Vingo and Roglic, but the fact that the fishmonger was lucky in that 1) he didn't crash, 2) his teammate crashed and helped him;
If you you're stating that teammate Roglic's demise didn't have a part in clearing up things for Jumbo, you're blind.
JV approached Tour 2022 with two leaders. One leader crashed and rode for the other, triggering and baiting Pogacar in the process. This outcome was lucky for Vingo has lucky can be: because otherwise Roglic would't have rode like that and JV would have to split forces for their two leaders.

Then you will agree that Pogacar will have luck this year after Vingegaard's crash, and that he was also got luck in the Tour 2021, because Vingegaard was suffering during entire year due to covid, he crashed in thr famous colombiere/romme stage, and he had injuries in his knees and in the achilles tendon before the Tour.

Vingegaard seventh in time trial Critérium du Dauphiné

Jonas Vingegaard has finished seventh in the time trial of the Critérium du Dauphiné. On the hilly course, the Dane clocked a time of 21:53, conceding…

www.teamvismaleaseabike.com

"I REALLY DIDN’T EXPECT TO ACHIEVE THIS ALREADY AFTER MY INJURY."
JONAS VINGEGAARD
Vingegaard was surprised by his good time trial. He has just recovered from an injury to his achilles tendon. “I am very happy with my performance. I really didn’t expect to achieve this already after my injury."



He also had some issues before the Tour 2022 in his achilles tendon and in his knees.


Pogacar only had issues before the Tour 2023.

@bNator


If we look closely, Pogacar is the most lucky guy since 2021.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Then you will agree that Pogacar will have luck this year after Vingegaard's crash, and that he was also got luck in the Tour 2021, because Vingegaard was suffering during entire year due to covid, he crashed in thr famous colombiere/romme stage, and he had injuries in his knees and in the achilles tendon before the Tour.

Vingegaard seventh in time trial Critérium du Dauphiné

Jonas Vingegaard has finished seventh in the time trial of the Critérium du Dauphiné. On the hilly course, the Dane clocked a time of 21:53, conceding…

www.teamvismaleaseabike.com

"I REALLY DIDN’T EXPECT TO ACHIEVE THIS ALREADY AFTER MY INJURY."
JONAS VINGEGAARD
Vingegaard was surprised by his good time trial. He has just recovered from an injury to his achilles tendon. “I am very happy with my performance. I really didn’t expect to achieve this already after my injury."



He also had some issues before the Tour 2022 in his achilles tendon and in his knees.


Pogacar only had issues before the Tour 2023.

No, you can's say that, because Pogacar might crash until the Tour. Otherwise, of course.

For any rider, staying in the bicycle without crashes before and during the Tour is lucky already.

 

[Peyroteo94]

We need him to post a pic from the hospital with thumbs up, only then will we know.

They listen to you

 

[Netserk]

Possibly,.
But even then for what we know Roglic and Vingegaard had an equal status back in TdF 2022. One could even say Roglic was the de-facto leader. So if Roglic isn't much weaker than Pogacar, the Tour is very different and Vingegaard EVENTUALLY doesn't get the chance to show he is the strongest.

At the time, he delivered the best climbing performances of the era in that Tour on Granon and Hautacam. I see no reason to assume that he would be chained to Rogla and not allowed to attack Pogi in yellow.

 

[bNator]

Pogi had greater luck in 2021 than Vingegaard had in 2023. So far, Pogi has been the luckiest Tour contender.

It depends: was Rogla on Pog's level in 2021 / was injury-free Pog on Vinge's level in 2023?
If yes/no -> Pog is the luckiest
If no/no or yes/yes -> same amount of luck
If no/yes -> Vinge is the luckiest

What we know for sure: Rogla was unluckiest

 

[Netserk]

It depends: was Rogla on Pog's level in 2021 / was injury-free Pog on Vinge's level in 2023?
If yes/no -> Pog is the luckiest
If no/no or yes/yes -> same amount of luck
If no/yes -> Vinge is the luckiest

What we know for sure: Rogla was unluckiest

Without any bad luck, 2021 would not have been down solely to Rogla vs. Pogi, but with Vingegaard as a viable threat as well (no injury before the Tour, no early time loss, no crash just before the most important climbs of the Tour).

 

[Elos Anjos]

You're conflating two luck sources: before the Tour and during the Tour. It's helpful if they are not put into one factor because crashes and issues before the Tour can allow riders and teams to choose or not to enter the race, while the later just feels like bitter fate.

 

[Netserk]

You're conflating two luck sources: before the Tour and during the Tour. It's helpful if they are not put into one factor because crashes and issues before the Tour can allow riders and teams to choose or not to enter the race, while the later just feels like bitter fate.

I'm not. Both were already considered in the same post of @bNator that I replied to. In the conversation I have with him, it's only natural to keep to that.

If you want to have a different conversation, by all means invite to one. But don't tell me how I should change the one I already have with someone else to fit with your preferences.

 

[YavorD]

At the time, he delivered the best climbing performances of the era in that Tour on Granon and Hautacam. I see no reason to assume that he would be chained to Rogla and not allowed to attack Pogi in yellow.

What if Rogla was stronger than Pogacar on Granon as well, I mean it their last clash at altitude, Roglic was stronger, no? Does Vingegaard or Roglic gets the upper card to attack in such a scenario?
I see even less of a reason to think that they'd pick Vingegaard at the time.

Once again, Vingegaard is and was the strongest but what @Froome claims that Roglic would've just work for Vingegaard without the crash doesn't hold any basis with what we knew back then.


*

 

[Elos Anjos]

I'm not. Both were already considered in the same post of @bNator that I replied to. In the conversation I have with him, it's only natural to keep to that.

If you want to have a different conversation, by all means invite to one. But don't tell me how I should change the one I already have with someone else to fit with your preferences.

I'll tell you what I feel like as long your "conversation" is public. If you want to have your chat with your own bullet-proof terms, go private.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes, Pogacar really is lucky in 2022 with his team getting decimated by Covid and crashes not to mention he himself potentially having Covid.

 

[Froome]

What if Rogla was stronger than Pogacar on Granon />)))>>>)/))))))))))))))>)>as well, I mean it their last clash at altitude, Roglic was stronger, no? Does Vingegaard or Roglic gets the upper card to attack in such a scenario?
I see even less of a reason to think that they'd pick Vingegaard at the time.

Once again, Vingegaard is and was the strongest but what @Froome claims that Roglic would've just work for Vingegaard without the crash doesn't hold any basis with what we knew back then.


*

Not just necessarily work for Vingegaard, but playing the 2 vs 1 until the end of the Tour. Roglic attacking and Pogacar answering to those attacks by Roglic, and then Vingegaard seize from that, and attack after Pogi being tired of answering Roglic's attacks.

 

[Netserk]

Yes, Pogacar really is lucky in 2022 with his team getting decimated by Covid and crashes not to mention he himself potentially having Covid.

He was struck by imagined bad luck?

 

[AmRacer]

Not just necessarily work for Vingegaard, but playing the 2 vs 1 until the end of the Tour. Roglic attacking and Pogacar answering to those attacks by Roglic, and then Vingegaard seize from that, and attack after Pogi being tired of answering Roglic's attacks.

Poggi should've let Rogla go.

 

[Froome]

Poggi should've let Rogla go.

They are from the same country, but they were from a different team. Pogi could not let him go.

 

[YavorD]

Not just necessarily work for Vingegaard, but playing the 2 vs 1 until the end of the Tour. Roglic attacking and Pogacar answering to those attacks by Roglic, and then Vingegaard seize from that, and attack after Pogi being tired of answering Roglic's attacks.

Uhm, not necessarily. If Pogacar drops after an attack from Roglic (without the crash), then Vingegaard ends up working for Roglic.
So no, without the crash it's far from certain that Roglic would've worked for Vingegaard.

 

[Oldermanish]

They listen to you

Now that they have posted the requisitite thumbs-up hospital exit picture; we as super-informed analysts have to ask the big question: Do you think Jonas has put on too much weight?