Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Nick2413]

I think this is pretty much the basis of all Visma's issues right now, i.e. on 'paper', there's no match. Vingegaard is the best GT rider in the world & Sepp Kuss is one of the best climbers in the world.

But, due to unforeseen factors (Vingegaard's injuries & Sepp Kuss's loss of form) it becomes apparent to me at least Matteo Jorgenson is probably the best rider on the team right now from a GC perspective.

I think they'll try to protect both Jorgenson & Vingegaard in the first couple of weeks. I'm less sure about Kuss.

I don’t know what’s going on with Kuss but it’s still hard not to imagine him being his usual self at the Tour. I guess we’ll see.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

What they should have done is said "No Jonas for TdF" the entire time, and then surprise everyone with the latest possible entry moment.

That would have been the biggest mind game they could have played on UAE.

Wouldn't have worked, seeing as the mountain GOAT is in Tignes. Hardly off the radar. They - UAE - know he's been training very well, flying up Iseran.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I suspect Matteo Jorgenson is in the trickiest of 'political' positions right now... because he probably has the best numbers in the team with 10 days to go until the TdF.

So how do you prepare for the Tour tactically when your star rider isn't as good as another guy on the team? Do they keep Vingegaard protected & hope he gets better in the third week? Or do they do an all-in on Jorgenson for the podium (which based on his Dauphiné form seems like a realistic target).

I mean I'm just speculating here but I honestly do believe right here & now Jorgenson is Visma's best climber & best rouleur as things stand.

Of course they keep Vingegaard projected, lol. Just like Roglic was in 2022 when Jonas had the best numbers. Otherwise there's no really point of bringing him now, is there? You hope he gets through and find his legs in the Pyrenees, and thats by far your best chance of winning the race anyways.

What a weird post.

 

[Red Rick]

I'll never understand how some people could be even for 2 seconds expecting him to be in winning TdF shape after that crash... I mean being a fanboy is one thing but come on... even him just be somewhat able to start and finish TdF should be considered a miracle no matter what Visma/teammates were saying last weeks

It's pure copium.

 

[Rackham]

Of course they keep Vingegaard projected, lol. Just like Roglic was in 2022 when Jonas had the best numbers. Otherwise there's no really point of bringing him now, is there? You hope he gets through and find his legs in the Pyrenees, and thats by far your best chance of winning the race anyways.

What a weird post.

The context is entirely different though. Vingegaard is coming back from a huge injury without any warm-up races & his form is a question mark, as is his 'longevity' in the Tour. It could go either way. He might get better over the 21 stages or he could blow-up entirely. Jorgenson meanwhile doesn't have as higher ceiling on paper but right now I reckon he's the safest bet.

The post isn't 'weird' FYI, it's basically bike racing 1.01 (& the same thing Vingegaard fans banged their drums about back in 2022), i.e. the team should back the strongest guy.

For Matteo Jorgenson that means establishing himself as 'leader' on the road, even when he has a teammate called Vingegaard. I said it's tricky because it's also self-contained over the next month, i.e. by August it's quite possible that Vingegaard will be back at his best level again - yet in the meantime Jorgenson is probably 'the guy' for the Tour.

 

[Red Rick]

Nothing similar to 2022.

 

[ice&fire]

It'll be Kuss, Vingo, and Jorgenson on the podium, with all the political drama of last year's Vuelta.

Or not.

I feel tempted to create a twitter account to vote in the coming poll

 

[AmRacer]

I feel tempted to create a twitter account to vote in the coming poll

Twitter?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Ofc its not similar to 2022, but its still a weird ass post. If you bring Vingegaard, you back him and you believe he can win the race if the stars allign. Matteo can't. Meanwhile he can still do his own GC regardless of Jonas. Its 2024 and people still has to obsess over who the captain and what not while in reality all these big teams have multiple great options (and will keep them relevant as in GC as long as they can), but only a select few riders can still win the entire thing.

 

[Froome]

Wouldn't have worked, seeing as the mountain GOAT is in Tignes. Hardly off the radar. They - UAE - know he's been training very well, flying up Iseran.

Ofc its not similar to 2022, but its still a weird ass post. If you bring Vingegaard, you back him and you believe he can win the race if the stars allign. Matteo can't. Meanwhile he can still do his own GC regardless of Jonas. Its 2024 and people still has to obsess over who the captain and what not while in reality all these big teams have multiple great options (and will keep them relevant as in GC as long as they can), but only a select few riders can still win the entire thing.

C'mon.........i always thought you two were the same user! I never noticed there were 2 Vavl pitis.

 

[Froome]

I'll never understand how some people could be even for 2 seconds expecting him to be in winning TdF shape after that crash... I mean being a fanboy is one thing but come on... even him just be somewhat able to start and finish TdF should be considered a miracle no matter what Visma/teammates were saying last weeks

Miracles happens a lot in cycling, just look at the history. This is not a normal sport. Steff cras was doing miracles in Tour Slovenia.

 

[AmRacer]

Miracles happens a lot in cycling, just look at the history. This is not a normal sport. Steff cras was doing miracles in Tour Slovenia.

If miracle happens, you get your fifth.

 

[Froome]

If miracle happens, you get your fifth.

Froome winning a 5th Tour is not a miracle. It's a utopia.

 

[Rackham]

Ofc its not similar to 2022, but its still a weird ass post. If you bring Vingegaard, you back him and you believe he can win the race if the stars allign. Matteo can't.

They'll have the numbers. The name of the riders will have very little to do with anything, i.e. there's nothing to say Vingegaard is a better option for Visma in this Tour 2024 than Jorgenson is. The path to victory for both probably requires a similar scenario: Pog DNF/mechanical at the wrong time/accident/sudden loss of form or a huge echelon time loss, along with other rivals (Rog, Evenepoel, Rodriguez etc.) not being a level above either. On top of this, Vingegaard will need to rediscover his best form. That's a lot of 'if if if', i.e. just because Vingegaard demolished the TdF in 2022 & 2023, it doesn't mean he has the intrinsic physical capabilities to rise a level above Jorgenson next month considering what happened to him in Itzulia.

It's not like football where even an off-form Messi will deliver some magic in the right conditions. If Vingegaard doesn't have the legs, he'll drop like a rock.

 

[Froome]

They'll have the numbers. The name of the riders will have very little to do with anything, i.e. there's nothing to say Vingegaard is a better option for Visma in this Tour 2024 than Jorgenson is. The path to victory for both probably requires a similar scenario: Pog DNF/mechanical at the wrong time/accident/sudden loss of form or a huge echelon time loss, along with other rivals (Rog, Evenepoel, Rodriguez etc.) not being a level above either. On top of this, Vingegaard will need to rediscover his best form. That's a lot of 'if if if', i.e. just because Vingegaard demolished the TdF in 2022 & 2023, it doesn't mean he has the intrinsic physical capabilities to rise a level above Jorgenson next month considering what happened to him in Itzulia.

It's not like football where even an off-form Messi will deliver some magic in the right conditions. If Vingegaard doesn't have the legs, he'll drop like a rock.

If Vingegaard will not rise above Jorgenson in July, what he is going to do, to the Tour?

Better wait for the first real mountain stage. Only Visma knows Vingegaard's numbers, and the conditions for him to race the Tour were very clear.

 

[Rackham]

If Vingegaard will not rise above Jorgenson in July, what he is going to do, to the Tour?

Better wait for the first real mountain stage. Only Visma knows Vingegaard's numbers, and the conditions for him to race the Tour were very clear.

I think the conversation here is based on Zeeman's most recent comments in which he's suggesting they're changing their criteria for Vingegaard's TdF selection, namely downgrading the previously stated "he should be at 100%".

To me that suggests Jorgenson will be number 1 & Vingegaard will have a 'protected number 2' role with some freedom to grow.

What I don't expect to happen is see Jorgenson working on the front for Vingegaard in week 1 the way we saw all the Jumbo riders work for Vingegaard in the first week of the 2023 Tour (like the Tourmalet stage where they blew the race apart & went all in). Jorgenson will have some protection & ride his own GC chances, IMO.

 

[Unchained]

I think the conversation here is based on Zeeman's most recent comments in which he's suggesting they're changing their criteria for Vingegaard's TdF selection, namely downgrading the previously stated "he should be at 100%".

To me that suggests Jorgenson will be number 1 & Vingegaard will have a 'protected number 2' role with some freedom to grow.

What I don't expect to happen is see Jorgenson working on the front for Vingegaard in week 1 the way we saw all the Jumbo riders work for Vingegaard in the first week of the 2023 Tour (like the Tourmalet stage where they blew the race apart & went all in). Jorgenson will have some protection & ride his own GC chances, IMO.

I like your way of thinking but Jorgeson will likely be behind Kiss in pecking order. Visma will learn quick about what happens if your chain of command org chart is shaped like a mushroom and you have 3 guys as co-captains.
A ship without a clear captain usually ends up on the rocks.
Matteo showing great one day, one week form but he will have to immediately be on the attack in a three week race. But same with Kuss. If Vingegaard is indeed in the toilet or partially in, Remco, Roglic, Visma, will all need to be bold..UAE has 3 guys that can cover moves, even on the best day from Jorgenson or Kuss, Roglic...Remco yet to show he can ride consistently for 3 weeks..2 weeks..1 week..5 days..

 

[Netserk]

I fully expect Jorgenson to pull for Vingegaard on Galibier. No matter how strong they are.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think the conversation here is based on Zeeman's most recent comments in which he's suggesting they're changing their criteria for Vingegaard's TdF selection, namely downgrading the previously stated "he should be at 100%".

To me that suggests Jorgenson will be number 1 & Vingegaard will have a 'protected number 2' role with some freedom to grow.

What I don't expect to happen is see Jorgenson working on the front for Vingegaard in week 1 the way we saw all the Jumbo riders work for Vingegaard in the first week of the 2023 Tour (like the Tourmalet stage where they blew the race apart & went all in). Jorgenson will have some protection & ride his own GC chances, IMO.

Its just beyond me how you realistically can look at such comments (which we all knew were stupid and absolute bs too, btw) and come to that conclusion. These words mean nothing, everybody knew that obviously Jonas wasn't going to be 100% going into the race. Jumbo knew but decided to spew nonsense instead and know they retreated that. Good. He won't be 100%. But how close? Thats the question.

That doesn't mean Jorgenson all of a sudden is number 1.

Im not as confident as Netserk that Jorgensen will be used as a donkey (as a matter of fact, Im sure he won't and that role will be put on Kuss) but I find it laughable to think that Jorgensen will be their number 1 if they bring Jonas. That might change during the race, but for now I think its pretty clear that Jonas is 1, Jorgenson 2 and Kuss a distant 3 while you have WVA as well wanting to gun for stages. They have lots of options if one or two of those don't pan out, we don't have any clue how far these guys are off apart from Jorgenson, but we know that he cannot win the race and we know that Jonas CAN. So that should be the first priority if he's decent enough to take the start and they think they can get by for 2 weeks before the real race begins on stage 14.

 

[Froome]

I think the conversation here is based on Zeeman's most recent comments in which he's suggesting they're changing their criteria for Vingegaard's TdF selection, namely downgrading the previously stated "he should be at 100%".

To me that suggests Jorgenson will be number 1 & Vingegaard will have a 'protected number 2' role with some freedom to grow.

What I don't expect to happen is see Jorgenson working on the front for Vingegaard in week 1 the way we saw all the Jumbo riders work for Vingegaard in the first week of the 2023 Tour (like the Tourmalet stage where they blew the race apart & went all in). Jorgenson will have some protection & ride his own GC chances, IMO.

I didn't interpreted the words of Zeeman in that way. I don't think he mean that.

I don't think it would make sense Vingegaard going to the Tour if Jorgenson will be better than him.

 

[SHAD0W93]

What they should have done is said "No Jonas for TdF" the entire time, and then surprise everyone with the latest possible entry moment.

That would have been the biggest mind game they could have played on UAE.

Cashes in his Money in the Bank briefcase on the final stage to steal the win pushing 9 w/kg.

 

[Cookster15]

I didn't interpreted the words of Zeeman in that way. I don't think he mean that.

I don't think it would make sense Vingegaard going to the Tour if Jorgenson will be better than him.

My interpretation of Zeeman's comments is they simply don't know Vingagaard's shape - including more importantly his psychological shape. Even Jonas Vingegaard doesn't know. My read is Jonas was really shaken by that crash which is understandable. This is the only reason we have any conjecture about Jorgensen.

IMO the safer option would be to let Jonas regain his confidence on the bike by skipping the Tour and doing some lesser races rather than risk another fall.

 

[Extinction]

My interpretation of Zeeman's comments is they simply don't know Vingagaard's shape - including more importantly his psychological shape. Even Jonas Vingegaard doesn't know. My read is Jonas was really shaken by that crash which is understandable. This is the only reason we have any conjecture about Jorgensen.

IMO the safer option would be to let Jonas regain his confidence on the bike by skipping the Tour and doing some lesser races rather than risk another fall.

I think Jonas' mental state is the ultimate question. If he goes and loses within a scenario that doesn't break him, then he is primed to pick up where he was for 2025. Whereas not doing the Tour leaves questions.

 

[Froome]

He is very lean at the moment right?👀

Yeah, i know it's usual saying some rider is lean before an important race.

 

[Lequack]

He is very lean at the moment right?👀

Yeah, i know it's usual saying some rider is lean before an important race.

What's with the rolled up sleeves all of a sudden? Since when do the Danes care about tan lines?