Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[JimmyFingers]

And as I said there's nothing to incriminate them beyond the fact their winning so suddenly claiming that they are doping with the complete lack of anything to suggest they are is as bad as someone saying 'they train really hard and are lovely chaps, they must be clean'.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...And it still begs the question why he would suddenly stop when arriving at Sky if they had a hand in it: if you are blood doping or using EPO and you stop, your values plummet and it will show up as a violation. Stay on the juice and you don't get the same fluctuations. Perhaps JTL thought he's get the good stuff from Sky and could continue?

A couple of things here.

He would change his doping routine if it doesn't pass the IQ test. Never testing positive below the WT level is different. How exactly different? Less testing below WT means doping between races is easier. Just show up to race "clean."

Note that there's a huge hole in the bio-passport that the UCI seems to mostly ignore with "too normal" values, Chris Horner's data being the perfect example.

It seems to me The mysterious UCI popularity contest still working under Cookson. Maybe JTL doesn't bring sponsors in?

Either way, I would not have predicted the case being opened. As said elsewhere, watching the UCI is Kremlinology. The pattern is the same, another small-time athlete gets the sanction.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What was it again Brailsford said about 'its no rocket science'?

Seems the scientific part of Team Sky can be put in the closet.

 

[nevada]

Interesting, thanks. Did you race against JTL? There must be some posters on here who did I imagine. It's a shame nobody tipped off UKAD like they did with Staite, or maybe someone did and he slipped the net?

Staite got caught because of Joe Papp.

 

[BroDeal]

And as I said there's nothing to incriminate them beyond the fact their winning so suddenly claiming that they are doping with the complete lack of anything to suggest they are is as bad as someone saying 'they train really hard and are lovely chaps, they must be clean'.

Nothing aside from the facts that professional cycling is full of dopers, doping gives a performance advantage, and that performance advantage is so large that it is the deciding factor when elite riders compete against each other. But go ahead and stick your head in the sand. When riders spend years riding professionally as pack fodder, like Froome ad Wiggins, then suddenly turn into world beaters it might not be due to doping. It might be due to them deciding to work harder than everyone else.

 

[JimmyFingers]

A couple of things here.

He would change his doping routine if it doesn't pass the IQ test. Never testing positive below the WT level is different. How exactly different? Less testing below WT means doping between races is easier. Just show up to race "clean."

Note that there's a huge hole in the bio-passport that the UCI seems to mostly ignore with "too normal" values, Chris Horner's data being the perfect example.

It seems to me another small-time athlete gets the sanction. The mysterious UCI popularity contest still working under Cookson. Maybe JTL doesn't bring sponsors in?

JTL's initial sanction preceded Cookson, no need to weave him into this. Many thought it was a parting gift to him from Fat Pat, although JTL's agent is Pat's son of course.

Difficult to gauge how glaring the fluctuations are in comparison to say Horner's. I do know his sister claims it is a conspiracy from Sky to be able to sack him.

Perhaps they realised he was doping when they saw his blood values from this year. Oh and the fact he was slow as ****.

However I think you have to really work at the spin to throw this at Sky. His high reading were from when he was at another team, when he was winning. His low values are from while he was at Sky and taking up the rear.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Nothing aside from the facts that professional cycling is full of dopers, doping gives a performance advantage, and that performance advantage is so large that it is the deciding factor when elite riders compete against each other. But go ahead and stick your head in the sand. When riders spend years riding professionally as pack fodder, like Froome ad Wiggins, then suddenly turn into world beaters it might not be due to doping. It might be due to them deciding to work harder than everyone else.

Nice work.

We were talking about the Brownlees, they're triathletes.

 

[DirtyWorks]

And as I said there's nothing to incriminate them beyond the fact their winning so suddenly

Which, by now, suddenly winning stage races on the WT without lower-ranked results indicating WT-calibre power is sufficient evidence to indicate doping.

 

[thehog]

JTL's initial sanction preceded Cookson, no need to weave him into this. Many thought it was a parting gift to him from Fat Pat, although JTL's agent is Pat's son of course.

Difficult to gauge how glaring the fluctuations are in comparison to say Horner's. I do know his sister claims it is a conspiracy from Sky to be able to sack him.

Perhaps they realised he was doping when they saw his blood values from this year. Oh and the fact he was slow as ****.

However I think you have to really work at the spin to throw this at Sky. His high reading were from when he was at another team, when he was winning. His low values are from while he was at Sky and taking up the rear.

Actually the problem is "low" recs. Not high as you state. He was also training with Sky which isn't helping anyone's cause. Sky, Endura and British Cycling.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

JTL's initial sanction preceded Cookson, no need to weave him into this. Many thought it was a parting gift to him from Fat Pat, although JTL's agent is Pat's son of course.

Difficult to gauge how glaring the fluctuations are in comparison to say Horner's. I do know his sister claims it is a conspiracy from Sky to be able to sack him.

Perhaps they realised he was doping when they saw his blood values from this year. Oh and the fact he was slow as ****.

However I think you have to really work at the spin to throw this at Sky. His high reading were from when he was at another team, when he was winning. His low values are from while he was at Sky and taking up the rear.

Sorry if I missed it, but was it "high - low" issues? Just random blood quirkiness?

Regardless, I'm cramming my tin foil hat on for this one: This is perfect for Sky. Look, they're even booting one of their riders! Sure, he may not be one of the A-liners, but he's English!

They must be clean...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Which, by now, suddenly winning stage races on the WT without lower-ranked results indicating WT-calibre power is sufficient evidence to indicate doping.

You've taken that out of context: I said 'winning, so suddenly claiming' not suddenly winning races.

There's just a danger of plucking every sucessful athlete's name out of the ether and then casting aspirations at them without the tiniest slither of evidence beyond winning is as bad as saying something is clean because they train hard and love their mum. Surely we have to have some method to the accusations? I'm no fan of Vayer but at least there is structure there. Does anyone have anything on the Brownlees beyond their success?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Actually the problem is "low" recs. Not high as you state. He was also training with Sky which isn't helping anyone's cause. Sky, Endura and British Cycling.

That's a red herring: He trained with Sky, in April. He won throughout the season, starting in Feb wasn't it?

And no-one knows the specifics of abnormal values, or the exact time frame.

 

[thehog]

That's a red herring: He trained with Sky, in April. He won throughout the season, starting in Feb wasn't it?

And no-one knows the specifics of abnormal values, or the exact time frame.

A low rec count is most likely due to a transfusion. A high count after using EPO to bring it back in line within your range.

And yes the specifics are known. The test(s) in question are around Tour of Britain and WC time frame.

BC didn't know? In readiness for being the lead rider. He dropped a bag. Twice.

Flat-lined it with EPO in between.

 

[the sceptic]

Unless you think triathlon is the only clean sport in the world, they become suspicious simply because winning means you are beating other dopers. Its not rocket science jimmy, I dont need any evidence to say this.

 

[JimmyFingers]

@Hog Fair enough, you know the details better than me.

 

[The Hitch]

There's just a danger of plucking every sucessful athlete's name out of the ether and then casting aspirations at them

I don't get the use of the word danger. No one is trying to sanction these athletes, they just say that they possibly dope. they are allowed to.

They possibly dope because the last few decades have shown advantages from doping are so high that those who don't dope will not compete with those who do, and anti doping has the whole time found itself well behind those it is chasing on every level and thus has been unable to stop doping being a massive factor.

To say you believe athletes at the very top of endurance sports should be above suspicion is to me not that different from saying that you think next years Nobel prize for chemistry will go to someone did not even complete primary education rather than someone with a number of high level university degrees.

Both statements involve ignoring or limiting one of the major background factors behind success in those respective fields, and replacing it with the vague ethereal quality of "awesomeness".

 

[SundayRider]

I would hope the Brownlee's are spared suspicion: proper Yorkshire hardmen, never happier than training in the cold and wet, dominant in their sport yes but I've never heard any innuendo about them, unless we simply apply the 'they win ergo they dope' paradigm.

Not for one moment saying anything bad about the Brownlees but saying that an athlete is a proper hardman and enjoys training in the cold and wet does not mean they are less likely to dope than others.

 

[Benotti69]

Not for one moment saying anything bad about the Brownlees but saying that an athlete is a proper hardman and enjoys training in the cold and wet does not mean they are less likely to dope than others.

Sean Kelly was a proper hard man in his racing days no matter the weather, but now will not ride in the rain or wet.

 

[argyllflyer]

Any tests Sky did on JTL before they signed him are pretty worthless as it wasn't BP data because he wasn't part of the programme. It seems to take a year to get a calibration of what 'normal' is for a rider. In terms of whether he delivered credible data within the boundaries of normality in those tests for Garmin / Sky etc, what can they do apart from take his word he was clean? It took a year on the passport to produce evidence he was doped in 2012 as his normal values were apparent.

 

[Benotti69]

Any tests Sky did on JTL before they signed him are pretty worthless as it wasn't BP data because he wasn't part of the programme. It seems to take a year to get a calibration of what 'normal' is for a rider. In terms of whether he delivered credible data within the boundaries of normality in those tests for Garmin / Sky etc, what can they do apart from take his word he was clean? It took a year on the passport to produce evidence he was doped in 2012 as his normal values were apparent.

JV posted how he tests riders. He seems to believe there is a way to test the true talent of a rider without resulting to BP results.

 

[MartinGT]

Any tests Sky did on JTL before they signed him are pretty worthless as it wasn't BP data because he wasn't part of the programme. It seems to take a year to get a calibration of what 'normal' is for a rider. In terms of whether he delivered credible data within the boundaries of normality in those tests for Garmin / Sky etc, what can they do apart from take his word he was clean? It took a year on the passport to produce evidence he was doped in 2012 as his normal values were apparent.

I thought Sky were testing him rather early on?

 

[martinvickers]

And right now the Brownlee brothers are with the Sky boys.

(they are triathletes if anyone doesn't know. Regularly win Olympic distance stuff, both medalled at London 2012 Gold and Bronze. And I think were 2nd and 4th in the World Tri Series this year)

That actually undersells them; Alistair is THE dominant olympic distance triathlete of his era - basically unbeatable if fit. His only genuine competition is his brother, and Javier Gomez.

 

[martinvickers]

I would hope the Brownlee's are spared suspicion: proper Yorkshire hardmen, never happier than training in the cold and wet, dominant in their sport yes but I've never heard any innuendo about them, unless we simply apply the 'they win ergo they dope' paradigm.

You do know where you are, don't you?

 

[SundayRider]

That actually undersells them; Alistair is THE dominant olympic distance triathlete of his era - basically unbeatable if fit. His only genuine competition is his brother, and Javier Gomez.

Wonder if they will move up to Ironman Distance...

 

[argyllflyer]

I thought Sky were testing him rather early on?

What, before he signed for Endura?