Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[Freddythefrog]

Quit the hyperbole, I've had enough of that with Alex Salmond...

I don't believe Sky are pushing drugs on anyone. They're not stupid and they've seen what has happened in the past to teams that organise large doping programmes or force riders into it. You end up with too many loose ends. That's not to say they aren't turning a blind eye or telling riders to cut back when they know they are doping. That method keeps the circle much smaller and is limited to people who have as much to lose as each other.

No threads will lead to Sir David. He will have pieces of paper signed saying "juice and your fish food" and all sorts of policies in place.

The plot could have been facilitated with Leinders de Jong, Yates Sutton, Julrich and the pack around the riders, but right now, I think Froome and Brad are separate and don't know what each other are doing. The "Sutton at BC, Sir David at SKY" split was hugely important. I think quite a few threads were cut there. Quite were that leaves long term guys like Thomas, I don't know ? Hard alongside Brad, training with the track boys ? Your guess like mine. Certainly, Sir Dave will buy one season with no drugs scandals for one season of no results, given his position right now, hell, it might even be worth 2 seasons without results.

How is Froomes poorly wrist getting on ?

 

[King Boonen]

Quit the hyperbole, I've had enough of that with Alex Salmond...

I don't believe Sky are pushing drugs on anyone. They're not stupid and they've seen what has happened in the past to teams that organise large doping programmes or force riders into it. You end up with too many loose ends. That's not to say they aren't turning a blind eye or telling riders to cut back when they know they are doping. That method keeps the circle much smaller and is limited to people who have as much to lose as each

I'm sorry I did not know you I'm not attacking you I just don't think you may have ever been around athletics the make money.

Please punctuate sentences, it makes them very hard to read if you don't!

I happen to know and have known several athletes who are professional both professionally and socially. Other than that I'm missing the point you are trying to make...

 

[King Boonen]

I don't know what they are doing or not doing but I do think that they can't afford a positive test and survive... which is why I struggle to accept that if there is any doping going on that it is unsupervised.

I suppose as long as they can show they weren't involved then they're ok. After all, everyone knows cycling is dirty. Good old Sir D is just battling against the tide. Or something along those lines...

Really I just don't know. Of everyone on Team Sky, apart from JTL, I do think Froome is the one with the biggest question marks over him. Eveyone else seems to be around the level of similar riders in the pro peloton.

The point missed was he took a massive step in terms of races between 2012 and 2013.

Distance and competition wise was much longer and stronger. His Worlds performance was by far his best by a long way. A long long way.

You can't compare say Paris-Nice to 88km stages in January 2012. Not even in the same ballpark.

Not sure it's missed, more it happened when he joined Sky for Froome and beforehand for JTL. What that means, I don't honestly know.

 

[senatorrick]

I'm sorry I apologize for my outbursts but It gets a little mind-boggling when people do not realize that doping is part of professional sports, bottom line! this is why I do not address the Garmin situation because that's either a bigger lie than Armstrong or hey there is a clean team out there maybe others will follow suit but I'm not going to believe anything that I have not seen without with my own two eyes! Have a nice day

 

[70kmph]

Beware of thems with hyphenated names...

 

[King Boonen]

How is Froomes poorly wrist getting on ?

La Vuelta: Battle of the Broken Bones..?

 

[King Boonen]

I'm sorry I apologize for my outbursts but It gets a little mind-boggling when people do not realize that doping is part of professional sports, bottom line! this is why I do not address the Garmin situation because that's either a bigger lie than Armstrong or hey there is a clean team out there maybe others will follow suit but I'm not going to believe anything that I have not seen without with my own two eyes! Have a nice day

Then I'd suggest you read the thread. No-one in here is under that illusion. Well, maybe a couple are but I'm certainly not, especially considering what I actually do for a living.

 

[thehog]

Not sure it's missed, more it happened when he joined Sky for Froome and beforehand for JTL. What that means, I don't honestly know.

Froome went backwards at Sky when he joined. His backwards step was less obvious as he was already ProTour.

Wasn't to Sept 2011 he became World beater. JTL was good at 2.1, 2.2 races then had a mega ToB and Worlds under BC/Brailsford. Once he stepped up to longer races he I'd say he was about the same as he always was. I don't see that he took a backwards progression, no. In results, yes but not in his numbers. I would have expected him to go boom a little later on once he adjusted and was fully trusted.

 

[King Boonen]

Froome went backwards at Sky when he joined. His backwards step was less obvious as he was already ProTour.

Wasn't to Sept 2011 he became World beater. JTL was good at 2.1, 2.2 races then had a mega ToB and Worlds under BC/Brailsford. Once he stepped up to longer races he I'd say he was about the same as he always was. I don't see that he took a backwards progression, no. In results, yes but not in his numbers. I would have expected him to go boom a little later on once he adjusted and was fully trusted.

Maybe, it's pretty hard to judge across the different categories but you're probably right.

 

[Race Radio]

Reading through the decision a few things stick out

With an Off Score of 155 JTL was transfusing, not using EPO. Wonder who he was working with or if he was doing it alone? Given his crazy test results it sounds like an amateur effort

Andrew McQuaid was his agent and testified on his behalf.

His defense is absurd, how did he think this would work?

He was fined 70% of his 2012 salary, 15400 GBP

 

[Netserk]

Reading through the decision a few things stick out

With an Off Score of 155 JTL was transfusing, not using EPO. Wonder who he was working with or if he was doing it alone? Given his crazy test results it sounds like an amateur effort

Andrew McQuaid was his agent and testified on his behalf.

His defense is absurd, how did he think this would work?

He was fined 70% of his 2012 salary, 15400 GBP

Will he keep his 2013 salary, or will Sky demand money back?

 

[Race Radio]

Will he keep his 2013 salary, or will Sky demand money back?

Good question. Doubt he will have to give up any of that

 

[TailWindHome]

Not going to appeal

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/t...tiernan-locke-as-rider-decides-not-to-appeal/

He was subjected to a biological passport blood test for the first time in his career on September 22 2012. This was six days after his Tour of Britain victory, two days after signing a two year deal with Team Sky and one day before he rode the UCI world road race championships, finishing 19th.

He had been subjected to three urine tests during the Tour of Britain but, according to UKAD, none of these were analysed for traces of EPO.

Over the next five months four further samples were taken to build up his longitudinal profile for the biological passport. These set a baseline and made it clear that his September 22 reading was abnormal.

So Sky doped him - then signed him - then stopped doping him.

Yup. Makes sense.

 

[Netserk]

Good question. Doubt he will have to give up any of that

I'm sure that amount overshadows his fine by a big margin. Of course then comes in his costs for his defense (and the cost of his doping), but all in all I think he gained a substantial amount of money from his doping.

 

[SundayRider]

Reading through the decision a few things stick out

With an Off Score of 155 JTL was transfusing, not using EPO. Wonder who he was working with or if he was doing it alone? Given his crazy test results it sounds like an amateur effort

Andrew McQuaid was his agent and testified on his behalf.

His defense is absurd, how did he think this would work?

He was fined 70% of his 2012 salary, 15400 GBP

How do you come to the conclusion he was transfusing not using EPO?

 

[Race Radio]

How do you come to the conclusion he was transfusing not using EPO?

Low reticulocytes.

Looking at it further his Hgb is super high. Doubt he could do that with one blood bag. Likely was keeping it high with EPO, backed off as the Worlds approached, then slammed a blood bag. The result is a 155 off score.

 

[BYOP88]

Low reticulocytes.

Looking at it further his Hgb is super high. Doubt he could do that with one blood bag. Likely was keeping it high with EPO, backed off as the Worlds approached, then slammed a blood bag. The result is a 155 off score.

He should've used the Vaughters defense, "the machine was wrongly calibrated".

 

[Race Radio]

He should've used the Vaughters defense, "the machine was wrongly calibrated".

Would not have worked. Unlike the Garmin sample, that was tested in a local hospital, this was tested by calibrated equipment in a WADA approved lab. JTL did not even contest the readings as he knows that angle has repeatedly failed.

 

[fmk_RoI]

With an Off Score of 155 JTL was transfusing, not using EPO.

UKAD actually said EPO and/or blood bag ("a prohibited substance (an erythropoiesis-stimulating agent) and/or prohibited method (blood doping and/or physical manipulation of blood)"). And most know at this stage that you use an amount of EPO to try and disguise the use of a blood bag.

 

[thehog]

Not going to appeal

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/t...tiernan-locke-as-rider-decides-not-to-appeal/

He was subjected to a biological passport blood test for the first time in his career on September 22 2012. This was six days after his Tour of Britain victory, two days after signing a two year deal with Team Sky and one day before he rode the UCI world road race championships, finishing 19th.

He had been subjected to three urine tests during the Tour of Britain but, according to UKAD, none of these were analysed for traces of EPO.

Over the next five months four further samples were taken to build up his longitudinal profile for the biological passport. These set a baseline and made it clear that his September 22 reading was abnormal.

So Sky doped him - then signed him - then stopped doping him.

Yup. Makes sense.

Good grief.

Do you understand what occurs during high training load, race schedules and altitude?

And some context. Prior to the ToB he was injured and out. I have no doubt he doped at the ToB & the Worlds. But he was doing so under Sky's testing.

Once he started on the regular Sky training program he complained of being unwell and overtired.

The take is Brailsford has no idea of the blood test prior to the Worlds. The plan would he to build his new profile the Kerrison way.

He's HCT is high. Super high. Hard to think he was self-bloosbags on 42k a year. No that's a stretch.

Nevertheless the lactate tests from Kerrison back in April would have told Sky if he wasn't the real deal. They still hired & had his two best races under Sky's training.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Serious Q, so only serious replies, no speculation from people who don't know this stuff:

given JTL's binge, and the possibility that he was actually dehydrated when the test was carried out, can we actually say that it was the binge that busted him, that without the effects of it on his (doped) system the doping might actually have flown under the radar?

Or was 22 Sept (when he was tested) just too close to the 8-10 Sept guesstimate for when he finished his ToB 'preparation'?

Also - four additional ABP tests in the following five months (Oct thru Feb). How normal is that for a new athlete added to the programme?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Would not have worked. Unlike the Garmin sample, that was tested in a local hospital, this was tested by calibrated equipment in a WADA approved lab. JTL did not even contest the readings as he knows that angle has repeatedly failed.

What was Paul Scott's evidence, that UKAD dismissed?

(Has Scott ever actually been on the winning side in an appeal, or is involving him basically a sign that you're guilty as sin?)

 

[gillan1969]

Serious Q, so only serious replies, no speculation from people who don't know this stuff:

given JTL's binge, and the possibility that he was actually dehydrated when the test was carried out, can we actually say that it was the binge that busted him, that without the effects of it on his (doped) system the doping might actually have flown under the radar?

Or was 22 Sept (when he was tested) just too close to the 8-10 Sept guesstimate for when he finished his ToB 'preparation'?

Also - four additional ABP tests in the following five months (Oct thru Feb). How normal is that for a new athlete added to the programme?

'alleged' binge....and 'alleged' self-imposed dehydration regime the next day...

don't think he thought he would get tested the morning after arrival...or had been give that impression by someone...then we get the SKY test on 24th...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Low reticulocytes.

Looking at it further his Hgb is super high. Doubt he could do that with one blood bag. Likely was keeping it high with EPO, backed off as the Worlds approached, then slammed a blood bag. The result is a 155 off score.

FWIW, an athlete has to back off the EPO prior to an event for fear of tripping the easy urine test. My understanding is the effects of EPO appear days later anyway.

It seems like the probability that the UCI could get the sanction were very high was the reason the case was opened. JTL failed the IQ test.

I'm wondering how much information passed from the UCI to Sky "out of band." We know the information leaks.

 

[Race Radio]

UKAD actually said EPO and/or blood bag ("a prohibited substance (an erythropoiesis-stimulating agent) and/or prohibited method (blood doping and/or physical manipulation of blood)"). And most know at this stage that you use an amount of EPO to try and disguise the use of a blood bag.

If he was using EPO at the time his body would have been producing new blood cells, it wasn't. Not saying he was not using EPO earlier, he probably was, but at the time of the test he likely had already stopped.