Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[gillan1969]

JTL was a rider who was training with Sky since April that year. He’d undertaken lactate testing, was using a Sky powermeter to send them data and had signed a letter of intent since that time.

Brailsford had him earmarked for the team long before the race. My feeling was the blood draw at the Worlds by the UCI was unexpected. My feeling because JTL was not within the passport program at the time he felt he was fine.

No wonder Brialsford kept calling this a “Endura problem”, which clearly it is not.

any thoughts on the 24th test? normal a day after worlds?

 

[Freddythefrog]

Maybe there's a lot of indirect help provided...

A revealed team program would ruin everything... So how do you avoid this?

you make sure to only involve as a team directly when it comes to podium canditates or massive stage earners -maybe 1-3 gyus in the theam... At the same time you indirectly help the others via internal testing and letting them help eachother as to "who to call for help".. This way you do not have a team program but control the parts that end up on your desk eventually... Simple

Nail hit, but remote at the top level as well. All DB needs to know is that his main man is on track and that is achieved by the internal testing program, he leaves preparation to the 3 individuals around the main man and doesn't want to know what they are doing or how they are doing it, only that they don't involve anyone else and aren't going to get caught.

 

[TheSpud]

JTL was a rider who was training with Sky since April that year. He’d undertaken lactate testing, was using a Sky powermeter to send them data and had signed a letter of intent since that time.

Brailsford had him earmarked for the worlds team long before the race. My feeling was the blood draw at the Worlds by the UCI was unexpected. My feeling because JTL was not within the passport program at the time he felt he was fine.

No wonder Brialsford kept calling this a “Endura problem”, which clearly it is not.

I understand what you're saying but if Sky were doping him for the ToB and Worlds wouldn't they have made sure his parameters weren't screwed, especially as there is a chance he would have been tested as he was joining SKY. AND if they were doping him why let his numbers drop off so much after he joined when they knew for sure he would be tested further as part of the baseline? It just doesn't make sense that they would let that happen - thats one of the bits that doesn't add up for me.

 

[thehog]

any thoughts on the 24th test? normal a day after worlds?

Well not normal. "Returning to normal".

Although you might want to question why Sky were conducting blood tests at this time?

And because they values were still rather high that they didn't terminate his contract right there and then. Especially seeing it was 2012 and he still hadn't started at that point.

 

[thehog]

I understand what you're saying but if Sky were doping him for the ToB and Worlds wouldn't they have made sure his parameters weren't screwed, especially as there is a chance he would have been tested as he was joining SKY. AND if they were doping him why let his numbers drop off so much after he joined when they knew for sure he would be tested further as part of the baseline? It just doesn't make sense that they would let that happen - thats one of the bits that doesn't add up for me.

But Sky didn't let it drop.

The day after the Worlds after travelling back from Holland to Manchester Sky did a blood test. He wasn't even officially Sky at that point but he was providing blood test to them even after racing and travelling.

What's going on there?

 

[Benotti69]

for those interested Vaughters is discussing Garmin's JTL test (1) and how and what they test for when looking at riders...

https://twitter.com/vaughters/with_replies

Jonathan Vaughters @Vaughters · 6h

@jeffvolkmer @SSbike @RushianLFC @notnix so, good test, good race results, normal hematology 4/5 times in the year = clean rider.

Jonathan Vaughters @Vaughters · 6h
@jeffvolkmer @SSbike @RushianLFC @notnix conversely, good race results, somewhat odd physiology, very odd hematology + inconsistency = bad

JV can't say doper, but rather uses 'bad'......

 

[the sceptic]

no machine error this time?

 

[Benotti69]

no machine error this time?

that would've come later

 

[TheSpud]

But Sky didn't let it drop.

The day after the Worlds after travelling back from Holland to Manchester Sky did a blood test. He wasn't even officially Sky at that point but he was providing blood test to them even after racing and travelling.

What's going on there?

But it did drop - it was only the first ABP sample that was deemed odd, the next 4 weren't. Again it begs the question if Sky were doping him why let the parameters drop off so much that the first reading became an anomaly?

The test you mention above wasn't analysed for the ABP since it wasn't an official one, so is irrelevant to the case. Quite why Sky were taking it is anyones guess, but if it was to keep his numbers consistent then they royally screwed up.

 

[thehog]

The test you mention above wasn't analysed for the ABP since it wasn't an official one, so is irrelevant to the case. Quite why Sky were taking it is anyones guess, but if it was to keep his numbers consistent then they royally screwed up.

Exactly the point I was making. I know it wasn't an ABP. Sky were testing his blood after the Worlds when he wasn't a Sky rider. They knew his values. And why were they testing him the day after the Worlds and travelling?

What information could that tell them I wonder?

 

[TheSpud]

Exactly the point I was making. I know it wasn't an ABP. Sky were testing his blood after the Worlds when he wasn't a Sky rider. They knew his values. And why were they testing him the day after the Worlds and travelling?

What information could that tell them I wonder?

I haven't a clue, but As I said - if it was for their own doping purposes (to keep his numbers up) then they screwed up. A mistake i don't think they (or any half decent doping team) would make.

 

[Benotti69]

I haven't a clue, but As I said - if it was for their own doping purposes (to keep his numbers up) then they screwed up. A mistake i don't think they (or any half decent doping team) would make.

how would testing a rider "keep his numbers up"?

They were testing him for 2 reasons, i guess;

to see his values after such a race

to see if anything was still in his system

 

[TheSpud]

how would testing a rider "keep his numbers up"?

They were testing him for 2 reasons, i guess;

to see his values after such a race

to see if anything was still in his system

Ok, the point i was making was that if they doped him then they would also need to keep his parameters (numbers) up / consistent, especially over the early months of his contract, to help establish the baseline. Thats what i mean by the continued blood testing - so they could analyse, see what was needed and then tweak any doping.

They could of course have been testing him for a variety of other reasons, e.g. recovery of other values, etc. but I'm not a scientist of any kind so I don't know.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Would not have worked. Unlike the Garmin sample, that was tested in a local hospital, this was tested by calibrated equipment in a WADA approved lab. JTL did not even contest the readings as he knows that angle has repeatedly failed.

There was more than one sample that required calibration explanations, and they were tests conducted at GTs.

 

[Race Radio]

for those interested Vaughters is discussing Garmin's JTL test (1) and how and what they test for when looking at riders...

https://twitter.com/vaughters/with_replies


JV can't say doper, but rather uses 'bad'......

I would expect that any team wanting to hire a rider with such huge form swings would have tested JTL multiple times. JV says 3/4 times.....yet Sky never even tested his values. Not once. That is just so odd.

This is odd as well

@Vaughters
The one blood test was unremarkable, but the power test he did was also very unremarkable.

Should have set off alarms.....yet Brailsford signs him.

Odd.

 

[Race Radio]

There was more than one sample that required calibration explanations, and they were tests conducted at GTs.

Not the thread for it but do you have a link? I remember some small variations but none remotely close to a 155 off score. IIRC The one outliar was done in a Italian hospital in an un-calibrated machine.

 

[thehog]

Ok, the point i was making was that if they doped him then they would also need to keep his parameters (numbers) up / consistent, especially over the early months of his contract, to help establish the baseline. Thats what i mean by the continued blood testing - so they could analyse, see what was needed and then tweak any doping.

They could of course have been testing him for a variety of other reasons, e.g. recovery of other values, etc. but I'm not a scientist of any kind so I don't know.

All true. The point being is did Brailsford know he was tested at the Worlds one day prior? I assume, yes, as the team would be notified but in a national team that may not be the case.

Sky had tested prior to the Manchester test. Kerrison had all his power data from his SRM and they had his training data to compare. If JTL was doping season long in 2012 then he must have been on it 24 x 7 because to keep up his values during racing & Sky camps from Jan through April onwards must have be a hell of a program for a lone guy on 40k a year.

JTL was what he was. A fairly decent Continental rider. When people expected him to be the next Tour winner it got out of hand. And why Sky were offering 400k a year for him was crazy considering the riders they already had and the fact they had all his power data to make up their minds.

Brailsford is clueless or he knew exactly what he was doing with JTL at the worlds.

 

[Race Radio]

Sky had tested prior to the Manchester test.

No blood test according to Smith

while the intention was to do a blood test, I don’t think they got around to doing that.

The only blood test he had while racing under Endura Racing was with Garmin. Everything else was urine testing.

Brailsford also said they did not test him but relied on Garmin's test. One test, with some weak power data. Odd.

 

[thehog]

No blood test according to Smith



Brailsford also said they did not test him but relied on Garmin's test. One test, with some weak power data. Odd.

I said "test" (not blood test as you infer) as he was "lactate" tested, which is blood but not in the sense of a blood test to measure hematocrit, hemoglobin etc.

He was given a Sky SRM in April and supplied all his power numbers to Kerrison from that point onwards, from the camps and otherwise.

Sky's April 2012 training camp

Despite having been ill after the Settimana Coppi e Bartali, the capabilities Tiernan-Locke displayed at Sky's Tenerife training camp in April were instrumental in orchestrating his move for 2013.

"I had an SRM on and we were doing all these timed efforts and tests. Tim Kerrison was there analysing all that data, doing all the blood lactate checks and all that.

"I hadn't used power in a while and it surprised me. We set off at different intervals for an hour-long climbing test. It was half of their Tour de France team and me, and although we couldn't see each other because we set off at different times, I was right up there.

"Ever since that training camp I've changed a few things; my position has changed a bit and I'm not pushing such a big gear."

 

[Race Radio]

I said "test" (not blood test as you stated) as he was "lactate" tested, which is blood but not in the sense of a blood test to measure hemocrit, Hemoglobin etc.

He was busted for Bio-Passport irregularities. Last I checked lactate is not part of the biopassport.

 

[thehog]

He was busted for Bio-Passport irregularities. Last I checked lactate is not part of the biopassport.

And again as I stated with was in relation to Sky testing him. Nothing to do with the passport.

Not sure where you're going with this but you're clearly trolling again.

I'll leave it here and inform the mods.

 

[Race Radio]

And again as I stated with was in relation to Sky testing him.

Some things never change.

Note what I was replying to

Sky had tested prior to the Manchester test.

The Manchester test was a blood test. Sky may have gave him a spelling test, an IQ test, or a math test but both Brailsford and Smith say Sky did not carry out any blood tests (Like Manchester) prior to Worlds. JTL did not have to worry about "Keeping his values up" for the 2012 season because nobody, besides Garmin, were tested him.

 

[Race Radio]

Back on topic

So Sky finally asks for JTL to get a blood test after they have signed him. 4 days after his bender he posts up a 127.8 off score. Granted it was not in a WADA lab but still that is very high.

IIRC prior to the Biopassport the UCI used to mandate a notice if an off score was over 127 and a sanction if it was over 133.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The Manchester test was a blood test. Sky may have gave him a spelling test, an IQ test, or a math test but both Brailsford and Smith say Sky did not carry out any blood tests (Like Manchester) prior to Worlds. JTL did not have to worry about "Keeping his values up" for the 2012 season because nobody, besides Garmin, were tested him.

But if he was impressing Kerrison with power numbers, he would have been doping to do so. And would have had to continue to dope to keep said power numbers (values) up.

This is how I read The Hog's post.

It looks to me like a simple misunderstanding.

 

[thehog]

Some things never change.

Note what I was replying to

The Manchester test was a blood test. Sky may have gave him a spelling test, an IQ test, or a math test but both Brailsford and Smith say Sky did not carry out any blood tests (Like Manchester) prior to Worlds. JTL did not have to worry about "Keeping his values up" for the 2012 season because nobody, besides Garmin, were tested him.

Indeed it was a blood test from Manchester because I linked it the paragraph where it mentioned in the reasoned decision.

I also listed out the the types or testing Sky performed on JTL including power readings, lactate testing etc. that built a profile of the rider and you've become hung up on something else which is not very clear.

Blood testing provides one set of data. However Sky performed several tests on him and most importantly had power data from his training and races. Sky knew what they were buying. They didn't need a one off haemocrit data point to tell them different.

I was in discussion with another and you've appeared to interject with information with regards Garmin which is not very relevant. I linked the Smith lack of blood testing statement several times on this thread in the past. I'm well aware of it.