Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[Dazed and Confused]

This

It is not like he did not have guidance. Andrew McQuaid is his agent. How is it that Andrew does tell him how ridiculous defending this would be? ......but then again given how clueless his doping program was perhaps we should not be surprised he was stupid enough to think he could get away with it

What portion of the signing fee has McQuaid paid back?

 

[Eyeballs Out]

When anyone argues that a rider "stopped doping" my reaction is always "yeah right". And same in this case (JTL @ Sky, 2013). Not that there is ever any proof because you can't prove someone isn't doping but I think just common sense says it's very unlikely. I think doping is addictive and doping + winning is like crack. Bad results are almost always down to injury, illness or personal issues

So why the rubbish results and "normal" passport profile in 2013 ?

You've got a rider on a modest salary who starts winning small races for a small team and we know why he's getting those results. By all accounts he's also having a good time in the process. Then a big team comes along and now he's earning 10 times as much money. I'd say it's pretty likely he's now going to be having a *very* good time which would partly explain the poor results (plus big step up in class, going from top rung in a small team to bottom rung in a big team etc). As for the "normal" profile, I'd say that was consistent with a rider now having a lot more money to spend on doping and / or now riding on a big team.

 

[thehog]

I believe Hogs point is that after that performance and looking at the data they now had they should have been questioning how he did it not just turning a blind eye and getting him signed up.

Correct. They had enough data to make a decision. The 400k salary was indicative of what they thought he was worth long term. 400k is a lot for a first year Pro.

They had his power data from April. They’d seen his lactate testing under load. They had power data from the Worlds with a blood test the day after to cross reference.

Should there not been an alarm bell if a 1st year Pro finishes in the lead group at the Worlds then records the blood values he did the very next day after travelling!

Either Sky are completely stupid or they knew exactly what JTL was doing (an/or assisted him).

 

[thehog]

Yes I sort of agree, however it was his early season performances that got him noticed by Sky wasn't it.

It was but JTL wasn't doing what he did at ToB and the Worlds back in January.

Sky also in 2013 changed his focus to regular season races (march onwards) and not those in the early early season.

It was only after Kerrison/Sky training camps and that he signed for Sky did he really go to town results wise. The ToB being just prior to signing and his collarbone injury.

He may have used EPO prior to the Worlds but when you lay out events in sequence; JTL signed a 400k contract with Sky, goes out with his girlfriend to celebrate then decides to transfuse and top up with EPO 2 days before the race.

He would have known about the Manchester blood test on the return from the Worlds so why top up in the manner which he did?

He would have only done these things if BC/Sky knew what he was doing.

 

[Race Radio]

I believe DW is referring to

Perhaps I am missing something but I do not see anything remotely close to JTL's readings.

Variance between tests is certainly possible but if done in a WADA lab it should be small. I found it encouraging that JTL did not even try to attack the results. In the past the central defense of Biopassport cases have been results management. Time after time dopers targeted the tests and failed. After all the defeats perhaps the message has been received that using that defense is a dead end?

Sky is clearly not telling the entire story. If they did not freak out when they saw the Manchester test then they are clueless.

 

[fmk_RoI]

He may have used EPO prior to the Worlds but when you lay out events in sequence; JTL signed a 400k contract with Sky, goes out with his girlfriend to celebrate then decides to transfuse and top up with EPO 2 days before the race

That is not the timeline UKAD laid out. They had him doping from end August through to 10-14 days before the 22/9 test, ie 8-12/9, with the Tour of Britain running 9-16/9 and the Worlds not taking place until 23/9 and the Sky contract offer coming in between, on 20/9.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I found it encouraging that JTL did not even try to attack the results. In the past the central defense of Biopassport cases have been results management. Time after time dopers targeted the tests and failed. After all the defeats perhaps the message has been received that using that defense is a dead end?

It is actually somewhat ironic that, in this case, JTL tried to bring in a test which the UKAD panel said could not be relied upon, citing calibration issues, the 24/9 Sky Manchester one.

Sky not going ballistic - he gave them the hangover story and they bought it ;o)

 

[the sceptic]

It is actually somewhat ironic that, in this case, JTL tried to bring in a test which the UKAD panel said could not be relied upon, citing calibration issues, the 24/9 Sky Manchester one.

Sky not going ballistic - he gave them the hangover story and they bought it ;o)

should have sent him to an alcoholic native research camp right away

 

[Race Radio]

It is actually somewhat ironic that, in this case, JTL tried to bring in a test which the UKAD panel said could not be relied upon, citing calibration issues, the 24/9 Sky Manchester one.

Sky not going ballistic - he gave them the hangover story and they bought it ;o)

Yeah, had to laugh when he tried to use another crazy high value to support his case.

When this story first broke I talked to a few folks very close to the team. They all said Sky were surprised and the team was going to defend him. There was talk of Ashenden being hired for this defense. Given they had the Manchester test it is puzzling why any of this was a surprise to Sky. Eventually Sky's attitude changed and they were convinced JTL doped......but shouldn't they have already known this?

JTL does not appear to be interested in talking but some reporter should ask SKY what their reaction was to the Manchester test. Did it freak them out? Did they have a talk with JTL? It appears JTL's contract was already done by the time of the Manchester test, if it was not why did they go through with it?

 

[thehog]

That is not the timeline UKAD laid out. They had him doping from end August through to 10-14 days before the 22/9 test, ie 8-12/9, with the Tour of Britain running 9-16/9 and the Worlds not taking place until 23/9 and the Sky contract offer coming in between, on 20/9.

Yes and if only they tested the urine for EPO during the ToB.

So basically he must have taken a bag just prior to the ToB to record the levels he did 14 days later at the Worlds.

He must have had some crazy hemocrit at the ToB! It would have been 65%! I don’t doubt he was doping at the ToB but that he is huge risk to take knowing the testing that was to occur. Unless he knew the urine tests would not be tested for EPO and that their would be no health or blood tests.

I wonder how he knew all that!


(I get that he could have bagged it and topped up on EPO prior to the Worlds, so may have not got to 65%).

 

[fmk_RoI]

Yes and if only they tested the urine for EPO during the ToB.

While it is something of a worry that the ToB can't afford the cost of EPO testing and is really just taking the urine with the testing they have, it should be noted that it is unlikely JTL would have tested positive for EPOs in any of the three IC tests he was subjected to.

 

[thehog]

While it is something of a worry that the ToB can't afford the cost of EPO testing and is really just taking the urine with the testing they have, it should be noted that it is unlikely JTL would have tested positive for EPOs in any of the three IC tests he was subjected to.

It’s not an issue of cost, you’d be surprised how many samples are not tested for EPO. It’s like the UCI doesn’t want to catch dope users.

In relation whether he would have tested positive or not it was a hell of risk to take because he shouldn’t in theory know what the samples would be tested for.

 

[thehog]

Yeah, had to laugh when he tried to use another crazy high value to support his case.

When this story first broke I talked to a few folks very close to the team. They all said Sky were surprised and the team was going to defend him. There was talk of Ashenden being hired for this defense. Given they had the Manchester test it is puzzling why any of this was a surprise to Sky. Eventually Sky's attitude changed and they were convinced JTL doped......but shouldn't they have already known this?

JTL does not appear to be interested in talking but some reporter should ask SKY what their reaction was to the Manchester test. Did it freak them out? Did they have a talk with JTL? It appears JTL's contract was already done by the time of the Manchester test, if it was not why did they go through with it?

Which is what I was discussing with you yesterday. Therefore we agree.

And appears the Manchester testing was more than basic blood testing;

Sky looked after him at Worlds then the process started at their off season training camp. What happened during Sky training camps, I don't know. Smith told Cyclingnews.

Tiernan-Locke’s former team go on to state that he attended a Sky training camp in May and that, “Team Sky had full access to JTL from the point it was agreed for him to train with them at this camp. This includes the period covering the last quarter of 2012. According to JTL, he undertook physiological tests for Team Sky directly after the World Championships in 2012 and although Endura never received any data from these tests, neither was anything raised by Team Sky as unusual or concerning.”

 

[Race Radio]

Therefore we agree.

If you had a point perhaps this would be possible, but it is impossible to keep up with the ever changing Hog "Facts"

JTL was named leader of the GB Worlds team 6 months prior to the race.....but only found out about it the day before, after his bender

JTL was put on the super secret, state of the art, Sky program starting in April....but they never did a blood test until after the Worlds. This super high tech program produced one of the most absurd Off Scores we have ever seen.

JTL had big performances, but only on Sky training rides. That is why they signed him to a big contract. Beating no-name French guys had nothing to do with it

Power figures are now called values

if you had a point perhaps we could agree but so far your goal has been clear, cram as much nonsense as possible into this thread in the hopes that someone will bite

 

[gillan1969]

you guys........

 

[thehog]

Power figures are now called values

'Power figures' as you state are values. Its basic mathematics.

A value is the result or 'output' of a calculation. That is what a power output is, a calculation. Figures would not be correct. Watts per kilio would also be a value and not a figure. A figure would be your "height" or "weight" used to determine the value of 'watts/kg'.

I believe we share the a similar line of thinking on Sky and the lack of due diligence. That's a good thing.

 

[King Boonen]

Stop the semantics guys, both figures and values are perfectly acceptable and very obviously interchangeable in this context. These kind of silly arguments just ruin threads.

 

[sniper]

It’s not an issue of cost, you’d be surprised how many samples are not tested for EPO. It’s like the UCI doesn’t want to catch dope users.

this

In relation whether he would have tested positive or not it was a hell of risk to take because he shouldn’t in theory know what the samples would be tested for.

i don't doubt this is the kind of intel Sky have been getting from UCI from day 1.

 

[TailWindHome]

Correct. They had enough data to make a decision. The 400k salary was indicative of what they thought he was worth long term. 400k is a lot for a first year Pro..

Kid musta looked great on the graph.

Shame he doped to get the shot at the big time. Maybe he assumed everyone else was at it and he'd get professional preparation, maybe he thought he'd enough natural talent to compete at that level - just needed a bit of help to get there and he'd quit when he got the contract, maybe he's a cynical ******* and done the maths. Either way I hope someone is looking after him.

 

[TheSpud]

It was only after Kerrison/Sky training camps and that he signed for Sky did he really go to town results wise. The ToB being just prior to signing and his collarbone injury.

And the ToB was just after an 11 day altitude camp with Endura. All sorts of things could have happened there. And as everyone says if any blood had been taken it would have produced useless results.

He may have used EPO prior to the Worlds but when you lay out events in sequence; JTL signed a 400k contract with Sky, goes out with his girlfriend to celebrate then decides to transfuse and top up with EPO 2 days before the race.

Quite possible and likely, certainly the booze up.

He would have known about the Manchester blood test on the return from the Worlds so why top up in the manner which he did?

Did he know though? Where has that been mentioned?

He would have only done these things if BC/Sky knew what he was doing.

Complete supposition on your part - there is nothing to support your conclusion.

 

[thehog]

Did he know though? Where has that been mentioned?

It was the day after the Worlds. His travelled would have been arranged by BC/Sky from Maastricht to Manchester. He underwent physiological and blood based testing.

Complete supposition on your part - there is nothing to support your conclusion.

So after the Manchester testing with the values that he recorded you think Sky just shrugged their shoulders and thought it must have been the Dutch beer?

 

[TheSpud]

It was the day after the Worlds. His travelled would have been arranged by BC/Sky from Maastricht to Manchester. He underwent physiological and blood based testing.



So after the Manchester testing with the values that he recorded you think Sky just shrugged their shoulders and thought it must have been the Dutch beer?

We know he underwent testing / training, but we don't know that he knew he would be blood tested (not in a big way, eg ABP type). As has been said, Sky hadn't done any ABP type testing themselves - they relied on Garmin's ones. JTL had mainly only had lactate type testing with Sky from a blood point of view (I think it may even have been you that pointed this out) so there was (imo) no reason for him to believe / suspect this time round would be any different.

I don't know what Sky thought - but its irrelevant. You made the conclusion that he did whatever he did because Sky/BC must have been involved. I don't agree and your retort doesn't change that because it is irrelevant.

 

[thehog]

We know he underwent testing / training, but we don't know that he knew he would be blood tested (not in a big way, eg ABP type). As has been said, Sky hadn't done any ABP type testing themselves - they relied on Garmin's ones. JTL had mainly only had lactate type testing with Sky from a blood point of view (I think it may even have been you that pointed this out) so there was (imo) no reason for him to believe / suspect this time round would be any different.

I don't know what Sky thought - but its irrelevant. You made the conclusion that he did whatever he did because Sky/BC must have been involved. I don't agree and your retort doesn't change that because it is irrelevant.

Garmin didn't do any either. A one off blood test doesn't provide the detail required. Its a one off snap shot in time. Means little, especially if the person has stepped off a plane or travelled from altitude or eaten way too much the day before.

Power readings with lactate testing give you fair idea about what you're dealing with and when done more than once you get a nice profile of what the riders true abilities are under load. As they did with JTL along with his Worlds power readings and next day blood test.

Garmin's test was a little pointless. If they were going to sign him then perhaps it would have meant more. If he had a hematocrit of 44.7% with Garmin, so what. Tells you very little. Now if you had 3 tests over 6 months then you'll have a lot better data to work with. All open for interpretation of course. This is not an exact science. Or more to the point when you have a set of blood results what do you need to know?

 

[sittingbison]

Stop the semantics guys, both figures and values are perfectly acceptable and very obviously interchangeable in this context. These kind of silly arguments just ruin threads.

good post hog

steady gentle(wo)men, steady,

I wouldn't like to be given the impression that baiting, trolling or hounding was in the works now would I?

If you break these rules, you're risking being banned. Think before you post.

• Chasing / harassing / flaming other users, regardless of who instigated it.
• Harassing other users by having a continuous negative or bitter attitude towards them.
• Trolling
• Cruising the boards looking for a fight

cheers
bison

good post hog

 

[badboygolf16v]

How different are JTL's standout performances from Sayar's? Is it a valid comparison?

One is vilified on Twitter, and one is encouraged and employed by the number one team in the world.

Bizarre.