Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[TheSpud]

clicking the arrow on Mrhender post on the single post I linked will take people to the conversations location.

There are many posts:

#1722
#1724
#1730
#1732
#1740

I don't think its too much to ask TheHog to post the back up to that. After all he asserted it (even if implicitly) as a fact, not an opinion or supposition.

 

[Race Radio]

While he is looking around his big bag of Hog Facts maybe he can find something about JTl getting named leader of the Worlds team 6 months prior to the race and that invisible TUE conveyor belt?

 

[thehog]

While he is looking around his big bag of Hog Facts maybe he can find something about JTl getting named leader of the Worlds team 6 months prior to the race and that invisible TUE conveyor belt?

You, ok?

RR facts;

x Moncoutie is a doper - no link.

x Horner passport looks like a mountain profile - not true, proven by release or Horner's passport.

x "Krutez is certified on a personally paid trip by Armstrong" - no link.

x "Leinders is not Ferrari, not even close" - despite running a blood program, injecting young riders with EPO and in cahoots with the UCI, avoiding positives.

x WADA will take over independent testing of the UCI - Never happened.

x There's no cortisone use at Sky - umm opps.

x Froome long way off Mayo, that's a good thing - less said the better.

 

[sittingbison]

I also assume you missed my follow up post, 2 post later?...

I didn't see any follow up post, certainly not 2 posts later

Well its not a fact as far as I know...

It looks like its not a fact at all.

...The point is that this vortexing sucks and ruins threads.

A moment of clarity. Perhaps the point of this line of questioning?

...Let's move on, agreed. I've been hit over the head enough with this. I'm beat.

Agreed....provided you look at the sceptics post I just quoted, and acknowledge that you made up this claim

Well Sky did prepare and pay for his defense so they've obviously got something to hide

and effectively derailed the thread

All you have to do is say:

Yup you got me I made it up. Sorry about that gents

good post hog

BTW I would not try the bullshit and bluster on this one #justsayin

 

[Granville57]

BTW I would not try the bullshit and bluster on this one #justsayin

Good post, bison.

 

[BroDeal]

I cannot wait for the mods to start demanding proof from Race about how a few photos of Armstrong watching a race is an Armstrong orchestrated conspiracy.

 

[the sceptic]

I didn't see any follow up post, certainly not 2 posts later



It looks like its not a fact at all.



A moment of clarity. Perhaps the point of this line of questioning?



Agreed....provided you look at the sceptics post I just quoted, and acknowledge that you made up this claim and effectively derailed the thread

All you have to do is say:


good post hog

BTW I would not try the bullshit and bluster on this one #justsayin

Bison, if you will allow me to sum up how I view link-gate.

If the people demanding links really cared about the issue at hand, surely they could go find the link themselves? after all, its been over a month since Hogs initial claim.

Which leads to the conclusion that they are asking for links for some other reason. If they are doing it because they believe what hog did is against the rules, you have to ask yourself why, and why this selective policing?

and thus we get to the point, the only reason for this pathetic crusade is to try and get hog banned. Its very transparent and I dont understand why it is so hard to see.

Yes, hog should be less stubborn. But the people ganging up on him are much worse.

 

[Race Radio]

I cannot wait for the mods to start demanding proof from Race about how a few photos of Armstrong watching a race is an Armstrong orchestrated conspiracy.

If you read the thread you would see that I showed

*She came in 4 days early
*Spent the weekend taking pics of Armstrong and his buddies at a charity event
*Did a photo shoot with lance
*Most of the pics she posted were of Lance
*Her last time on a Moto in a Pro bike race was 4 years ago where her primary focus was shooting pics of Lance for his comeback book
*Spent a couple hours on the moto, mostly taking pictures of Lance.
*Did not photograph any other stages of the race.

Given these facts what is the more likely reason she came to Colorado? How likely is it the Organizers paid a Photog to take pics for the day when they have plenty of Pro photographers begging for a spot on the back of the moto?

It is clear to most who here made something up in order to provoke a conflict and who did not.

 

[MarkvW]

Bison, if you will allow me to sum up how I view link-gate.

If the people demanding links really cared about the issue at hand, surely they could go find the link themselves? after all, its been over a month since Hogs initial claim.

Which leads to the conclusion that they are asking for links for some other reason. If they are doing it because they believe what hog did is against the rules, you have to ask yourself why, and why this selective policing?

and thus we get to the point, the only reason for this pathetic crusade is to try and get hog banned. Its very transparent and I dont understand why it is so hard to see.

Yes, hog should be less stubborn. But the people ganging up on him are much worse.

It will all become clear on Tuesday.

 

[thehog]

If you read the thread you would see that I showed

*She came in 4 days early
*Spent the weekend taking pics of Armstrong and his buddies at a charity event
*Did a photo shoot with lance
*Most of the pics she posted were of Lance
*Her last time on a Moto in a Pro bike race was 4 years ago where her primary focus was shooting pics of Lance for his comeback book
*Spent a couple hours on the moto, mostly taking pictures of Lance.
*Did not photograph any other stages of the race.

Given these facts what is the more likely reason she came to Colorado? How likely is it the Organizers paid a Photog to take pics for the day when they have plenty of Pro photographers begging for a spot on the back of the moto?

It is clear to most who here made something up in order to provoke a conflict and who did not.

Entirely wrong thread and we should all move on.

But I think you missed the point of what Bro was stating;

He was not asking for you to detail how Liz Kreutz found herself at the US Pro Challenge but how her presence at the race formed part or a larger orchestrated conspiracy by Armstrong to mount Comeback 3, which is what you implied.

There's no evidence of that. You linked the CNN interview and one could speculate but that is all. There's no evidence to suggest that it is.

The US Pro Challenge appeared to be fairly innocuous, she was there for multiple reasons, one of the photographs you posted was actually a charity event prior for Hincapie, Roll, Hansen and Armstrong (and Taylor Phinney?!) & not the US Pro Challenge (http://wapiyapi.org/?page_id=234).

But let's leave it there. It's all on Twitter on her feed etc. it's no secret.

I don't think its conflict clarifying those details. Roles reversed you'd perform the same clarification.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The issue here is that no link or evidence has been provided that proves that statement. So if you want to support it with a link, please do so. Otherwise, time to move on.

My first pass at this only turns up poor Brian Smith getting screwed by JTL.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...spite-UCIs-anti-doping-violation-process.aspx

“It is frustrating for me. I know he is clean, he knows he is clean, his management knows that he is clean, Endura knows that he is clean, yet he has to go through all this,” Smith, a former professional and current Eurosport commentator, told VeloNation. “I feel sorry for him.”

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/29/team-sky-jonathan-tiernan-locke-cycling
Team Sky and Endura speak up for Jonathan Tiernan-Locke

Which turns out to be tepid speaking up.
"We have no doubts over his performance, behaviour or tests at Team Sky and understand any anomaly is in readings taken before he joined the team," Team Sky said in a statement.

Dave Brailsford, the team's general manager, added: "There is a process that will allow the rider the opportunity to give his side and the authorities to do their job without prejudice. We're going to respect that process, wait until the facts have been established and take action from there.

You'll note the velonation article has Mr. Smith mentioning JTL was doing the defense hiring. But, Mr. Smith was doing nearly all of the talking as the story broke.

I could have missed something. But, you lazy bone idle w@nkers can't take 10 minutes to clear it up one way or another.

 

[TailWindHome]

But let's leave it there.

This.

try and get hog banned.

I've no desire to see anyone banned. I can't think why we would be, but y'all ban at the drop of a hat over here so who knows.

 

[Race Radio]

There's no evidence of that.

There is a lot of it, I gave it, you chose to pretend you did not see it.

Now contrast that with another one of your invented claims, with zero evidence, that has no basis in reality...... that you then clog the thread with pages and pages of nonsense once someone takes the bait

We can all see the difference, but don't take it personally. Good of you to wisely move on

 

[thehog]

There is a lot of it, I gave it, you chose to pretend you did not see it.

Now contrast that with another one of your invented claims, with zero evidence, that has no basis in reality...... that you then clog the thread with pages and pages of nonsense once someone takes the bait

We can all see the difference, but don't take it personally. Good of you to wisely move on

You provided a lot of links, photographs, stories from about motos etc. ,yes.

You then tied a story around those exhibits that Armstrong personally paid and flew his personal photographer to Colorado to take photographs of him for his next “rising”. That is was part of his “reinvention”.

Considering there were several riders on that trip including Tyler Phinney, Hincapie etc. and it was for a charity event which lead on to the US Pro Challenge, could it be they all donated their time to the charity along with covering their own expenses? Possible? Or that the charity covered expenses but their time was donated? Also possible.

Kruetz is a photographer in her own right. She’s doesn’t just photograph Armstrong. She’s done a lot of work in sports outside of him. Should could easily finance her own trip if it was for charity.

Is it possible Armstrong paid for everyone to attend to make himself look good? Also possible.

But neither of us actually know what the arrangement was. Thus you cannot claim you have some form of superior knowledge to the fact like you asserted at the time. You said it like you knew what was going on. But you can't possibly know.

There’s no actual evidence by way of link or otherwise that Armstrong paid Kreutz and it was part of grander plan to make a re-entry into public.

It looked like a bunch of cyclists giving their time for a charity, Taylor Phinney included (or did Lance pay him also?).

 

[thehog]

I agree, and wish you’d been around a few pages ago, when I pointed out that there was nothing in the UKAD decision to back up the claim that JTL used EPO 10-14 days before the Worlds. That his blood data were consistent with that conclusion, but other scenarios, such as a blood transfusion shortly before the Worlds, were at least as likely if not more likely.

Three different posters—del, parker and fmk-- argued that the use of EPO 10-14 days earlier was a fact. When I pointed out that it wasn’t, fmk said I shouldn’t be taken seriously, because I hadn’t read the report, that it was all in the report. After I read the report, I posted in detail why the report completely backed up my claim that no evidence had been provided for EPO vs. transfusion. Not a peep from fmk since then.

If you want to be the thread’s cop, you might start with this.

I’ll have a shot at this one.

They do remark “not in dispute”, not sure how they can state that but regardless at a guess; could they from reticulocytes estimate the growth timeframe from when RBCs are created to the point they “mature”? i.e. Could they take the standard deviation between the count which were fully formed RBCs to those which were in immature form (reticulocytes) and from that estimate the timeframe of EPO use?

 

[Race Radio]

You provided a lot of links, photographs, stories from about motos etc. ,yes.

Now perhaps you can do the same. Any links to support your claim Sky paid for JTL's defense?

 

[thehog]

Now perhaps you can do the same. Any links to support your claim Sky paid for JTL's defense?

Moncoutie?

 

[Race Radio]

Moncoutie?

Already done, several times. Don't know why you continue to pretend otherwise. Odd.

Instead of more deflecting perhaps you can address JTL, the topic of this thread..... Anything to support your claim that Sky paid for his defense? While you are at it how about your claim he was named leader of the Worlds team 6 months prior to the race?

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Now perhaps you can do the same. Any links to support your claim Sky paid for JTL's defense?

How do you read this:
Plymouth Herald

“As before, I don’t feel I’ve been proven guilty. It’s just in the balance of doubt, and it’s not been offered to me,” said Tiernan-Locke.

“There’s no way I can afford to finance another appeal. It would be the equivalent of me buying a small flat in Plymouth.

“I know riders who have done that but have been left with debts of £80,000-£100,000.

“It’s a big risk and I’m not saying that I wouldn’t appeal again in a second, but with my cool head on, I know it would probably end up in disappointment – again.”

Tiernan-Locke said he doesn’t even know if he will return to professional racing once his ban is over.
...
“One good thing that has come out of it, though, is that you find out who your real friends are. Fortunately I’ve got a few who are willing to help me.”

My spin on no way I can afford to finance another appeal :
1) JTL got well paid while at Sky for very little riding.
2) JTL got defended by Sky (real friends) until now
3) JTL cared/cares more about money than racing - and he
doesn't want to risk any of what he gained at Sky on defence.

pure speculation of course, but sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Parker]

My spin on no way I can afford to finance another appeal :
1) JTL got well paid while at Sky for very little riding.
2) JTL got defended by Sky (real friends) until now
3) JTL cared/cares more about money than racing - and he
doesn't want to risk any of what he gained at Sky on defence.

pure speculation of course, but sounds reasonable to me.

Alternatively, he knows he's given his defence his best shot and has sod all chance of winning an appeal (probably because he knows he's guilty - but let's not tell the local paper this), so why throw more money down the drain.

 

[doolols]

Alternatively, he knows he's given his defence his best shot and has sod all chance of winning an appeal (probably because he knows he's guilty - but let's not tell the local paper this), so why throw more money down the drain.

^^ This. ^^

 

[thehog]

Alternatively, he knows he's given his defence his best shot and has sod all chance of winning an appeal (probably because he knows he's guilty - but let's not tell the local paper this), so why throw more money down the drain.

Makes sense but also he's now got no income coming through the door, no support from either Sky or Endura, WADA/UCI would defend the appeal with more and more experts which he couldn't afford to complete with, there would be multiple documents going back and forth between the parties costing 100's per hour along with his own experts commissioning studies etc.

Guilty or innocent unless you have Oleg's money you can't win. Especially as you can't cross examine the 10-14 day claim by UKAD.

Its heavily weighted in UCI's favor.

I'd say its time to lay down his weapons. I'd also have no doubt that upon his loss of contract he would have agreed to terms of exit.

 

[grinchpipe]

I finally found the report. Would have been nice if someone had provided the link. (Edit: OK, Alex did, but quite a bit upthread. It's on the UKAD website, under Rule Violations: UKADvs_TiernanLocke_Decision_341.pdf

As I thought, there is nothing there that supports the conclusion of EPO 10-14 days prior to the sample taken as opposed to a later blood transfusion. In point 4, they say



then jump from that to point 48, where as previously noted here, they say the profile is "consistent with the use of an erythropoietic stimulant which had been discontinued approximately 10 to 14 days before the sample was taken." But as I and others have noted before, it's also consistent with a blood transfusion.

Since the method of manipulation is not relevant to whether JTL would be sanctioned, and if so, for how long (except that it includes the TOB), UKAD did not have to document why they concluded it was EPO. But this is very relevant to any argument about whether JTL stopped doping after the TOB.

The only other evidence noted is the very high but not quite over the limit off-score of about 128 from a sample taken on Sept. 24 at Manchester. This suggests the retics were starting to rise, but it's noted the difference is not significant, and the report says they didn't and couldn't use this evidence in coming to any decision. In any case, a slight rise in retics could be consistent with either EPO taken around TOB or a blood transfusion taken later.

I'll only repeat that the evidence in the literature does not offer strong support for the conclusion that 10-14 days following EPO retics would be severely depressed. It might happen, but a blood transfusion a little later is a much more certain way to get there.

And finally, I'm only jumping into this argument for the sake of the science. Unlike some of you, it doesn't matter to me when JTL doped. I thought some of the arguments in the decision were a little questionable, e.g., they said



This may be correct in a narrow sense, but there is a lot of evidence linking alcohol and reduced reticulocyte synthesis in alcoholics and in folate-deprived patients (the latter was discussed in the decision), and also in vitro. These studies don't prove that acute alcohol may inhibit reticulocyte synthesis in healthy patients, but I would regard this work as evidence for it. I don't have a problem with UKAD dismissing JTL's explanation for lack of strong support, but it's really not out of the question.

As I also pointed out earlier, the decision says he consumed 335 grams of alcohol, or 33 units. But Wiki says in England a unit of alcohol is 7.9 grams, not 10 grams (it is 10 ml). This of course has no bearing on the decision, but to me it's suggestive of sloppiness.

When the ruling was announced and fb went nuts about it, I did wonder whether it was such a ridiculous answer that in actual fact, someone could be a high functioning alcoholic but in that line of work, it catches up very quickly. Don't know enough personally but have seen some very unexpected people do stupid things as a result. A massive sesh before a major event could happen. Rule infractions remain ofc.

 

[BradCantona]

To clarify, Sky didn't pay for his defence then?

It would make absolutely no sense given the circumstances, but I also don't see the gain in making such a claim up?

 

[sittingbison]

To clarify, Sky didn't pay for his defence then?

It would make absolutely no sense given the circumstances, but I also don't see the gain in making such a claim up?

No

To clarify. thehog was asked a direct question by a mod....me.

Please let him answer to me when he is able.

Now move along please

cheers
bison