Jorg Jaksche Speaks

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

JV isn't going to miss a chance to dogpile Jaksche. JV had some post on here a few years back, IIRC, where he was asked why he didn't hire Jacksche for his team like he'd done with guys like Millar, giving a doper who'd come clean a second chance, etc. Best I can recall, JV's answer was something to the tune of Jaksche being bad for team morale because JJ was a noted gossip and ***-stirrer, or somesuch.

Anyway, this isn't the first time for JV to publicly throw shade at JJ.

This part of the JJ interview creates a deafening ring:

VN: There were reportedly up to 60 riders involved, but you were among the few given a sanction, which effectively ended your career, do you feel bitter about that?

JJ: I know there are some names of big riders that never came out. Perhaps not even half of the names have been revealed. There are still many people who have their blood bags in that freezer in the lab in Barcelona. Maybe they are not sleeping very easily at night, but today, you see them working as sport directors, or on TV as commentators.

#fakeit'tillyoumakeit. #confessonlywhencaught.

that's what Jaksche did

Has there ever been a case of a pre-emptive (out of the blue) confession? That would be great. "I've never been caught but I just can't live with myself anymore. I've been doing drugs since I was a junior, all through my amateur days and now as a Pro. I've finally been able to afford the really good stuff."

This is the sort of thing only a moron like me would do. #justforthehellofit. Can you imagine how much fun that would be?

Kimmage. Stephen Swart.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re:

never mind the difference in new bikes

Bikes have barely changed. On climbs, weight is by far the most important thing, and because of the UCI weight limit, they've weighed 6.8kg since the middle of the Armstrong era. In terms of aerodynamics, not much has changed either. On top of that, the vast majority of the CdA is from the rider, not the bike, especially when climbing which is often done standing up or on the tops and rarely in an aero position. Rolling resistance is a minuscule factor on climbs and tyres haven't changed that much either.

So we can rule out bike tech as a factor in faster climbing speeds.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

never mind the difference in new bikes

Bikes have barely changed. On climbs, weight is by far the most important thing, and because of the UCI weight limit, they've weighed 6.8kg since the middle of the Armstrong era. In terms of aerodynamics, not much has changed either. On top of that, the vast majority of the CdA is from the rider, not the bike, especially when climbing which is often done standing up or on the tops and rarely in an aero position. Rolling resistance is a minuscule factor on climbs and tyres haven't changed that much either.

So we can rule out bike tech as a factor in faster climbing speeds.

Some bikes have changed, they have motors in them

 

[vedrafjord]

Re:

Whilst I feel he is partially right, especially regarding genetics, he does ignore the fact that sport science in the last decade or so has improved dramatically especially with the help of modern technology and research.

As for this, the onus is on you to show a) what exactly has changed in the last decade and b) the difference these changes have made.

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

Whilst I feel he is partially right, especially regarding genetics, he does ignore the fact that sport science in the last decade or so has improved dramatically especially with the help of modern technology and research.

As for this, the onus is on you to show a) what exactly has changed in the last decade and b) the difference these changes have made.

Wow someone in the clinic wants actual facts and evidence I'm shocked

There is too much research into this area which is way too long (I'm too lazy) to go through and post on here. But feel free to have a look yourself. Here is an article that hopefully should answer your questions. http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-science-and-technology-are-changing-sports-2015-8

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Whilst I feel he is partially right, especially regarding genetics, he does ignore the fact that sport science in the last decade or so has improved dramatically especially with the help of modern technology and research.

As for this, the onus is on you to show a) what exactly has changed in the last decade and b) the difference these changes have made.

Wow someone in the clinic wants actual facts and evidence I'm shocked

There is too much research into this area which is way too long (I'm too lazy) to go through and post on here. But feel free to have a look yourself. Here is an article that hopefully should answer your questions. http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-science-and-technology-are-changing-sports-2015-8

An article which has nothing with regards to cycling, wow you really know your stuff, lol!

Alas I'm sure virtual reality will make climbing times faster! Awesome link!

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

Whilst I feel he is partially right, especially regarding genetics, he does ignore the fact that sport science in the last decade or so has improved dramatically especially with the help of modern technology and research.

As for this, the onus is on you to show a) what exactly has changed in the last decade and b) the difference these changes have made.

Wow someone in the clinic wants actual facts and evidence I'm shocked

There is too much research into this area which is way too long (I'm too lazy) to go through and post on here. But feel free to have a look yourself. Here is an article that hopefully should answer your questions. http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-science-and-technology-are-changing-sports-2015-8

An article which has nothing with regards to cycling, wow you really know your stuff, lol!

Alas I'm sure virtual reality will make climbing times faster! Awesome link!

Was wondering who would be the first to mention the argument about cycling being special and like no other sport, so no other new training techniques or advancements could possibly be transferred into cycling. As I have definitely seen any cyclist use a training mask to improve the lung capacity/oxygen efficiency

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

...
that's what Jaksche did

Exactly. So what makes JV or DM any better?

or hesjedal, or the garmin 6-monthers.
and jaksche at least confessed in the true sense of the word.
hesjedal and the 6-monthers not even close.
confessed only what they had to confess in order to cut a deal. Lied or stayed silent on everything else.

The script they were reading from ('stopped in 2006', 'doping made me go backwards') had JV's handwriting all over it. The fact that Tygart publicly vouched for the truthfulness of those Garmin affidavits supports thehog's claim that he and JV are/were in bed together. Not sure in what position, but at least under the same blanket.

Well more to the point, 'they cut the deal' and then did a limp wristed confession. Hesjedal one being the worst, JV did all the talking. The claim he stopped doping at USPS was utterly absurd along with being clean at Phonak. The whole situation only came about because Ras released his book talking about Ryder pimping him for drugs.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Looks like this got missed, but unsurprisingly given the source.

Jaksche was a guest on Australian ABC TV's Compass program a few days ago. It's a program mostly about religion, and faith so not the place you'd expect to hear about doping. They had a program to chat about sport's ethics.

Episode here you can watch:
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s4498241.htm

Some quotes from Jorge:

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, let’s develop this a little bit more now, in terms of the...what is encouraged, the mentality encouraged. I mean, it does appear, Joerg, that cheating has become commonplace, if I can put it like that. Maybe... You can tell me if I’m wrong. Certainly in your sport of cycling.

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, in cycling, it was always... I always explain it in the way that in 1904, I think that was the first Tour de France, the first three or four riders were disqualified because they took the train, and the fifth rider actually had the same time like the fourth rider, so he must have taken, also, the train but they did not catch him on the train. So, probably he was sitting on the train, on the top of the... I don’t know but, anyway, so, there is a long story about cheating, at least in cycling, and the funny thing about, uh...or the awkward thing about cheating in cycling is that doping has never been seen as cheating. So, we have...

GERALDINE DOOGUE
So, what’s it seen as?

JOERG JAKSCHE
As part of the business, as...

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Seriously?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, yeah.

TRACEY HOLMES
It’s an expectation.

JOERG JAKSCHE
It was...at that time, it was a systematic problem, so you were expected, by your team management, to participate.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
But it’s seen as performance-enhancing, then, is it? Is that how you’d put it?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, yeah.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Like, this is really important. The language matters, doesn’t it?

GAYELENE CLEWS
It’s normalising it, isn’t it?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, you would never talk about doping, you would talk about, um, drugs, of course, but you would never say, “This is doping,” or “This is illegal,” knowing very well that it is illegal. So, my team management at that time from a very big German team, they said to me, “Listen, we think you’re talented, but if you want to be successful in this sport, this is the way how it works. So, you can either participate in this system...” No-one urges you and pushes you...

GERALDINE DOOGUE
It’s your choice.

JOERG JAKSCHE
“It’s your choice. But we will also tell you that the likeliness that you will get another contract after two years is quite low.” And when you’re 19, 20, and you have the dream of participating in the Tour de France or participating at Rio and someone comes and kind of justifies taking drugs or PEDs, and all the entourage around you, so the doctor is involved, the team manager is involved, so everyone knows about it, so they take this bad feeling away from you that you’re cheating because actually everyone else is doing it, it is somehow fine for you and when you cross this line, you’re in the system. You will never get back out of the system.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, you outed yourself, didn’t you?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, I outed myself. But...because I was mainly fed up with the hypocrisy, that, as Tracey said it...that it’s only about the sportsman. The sportsman, at the end of the day, is only a really small pattern, really small mosaic stone, in this whole huge business. The big money is made around them and they must be there in order to make money, but they are easy to exchange.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, that was in that last episode of Barracuda where the... I thought, anyway. It was quite well done. ..where the young man, something had happened to him, bit like watching Nick Kyrgios... (LAUGHS) ..and you just think, “Well, do we just accept that or do we work with...do we work with it?” I don’t know what you think about that, Joerg.

JOERG JAKSCHE
Well, I think the athlete, I think they call it the biographic trap, so the athlete actually identifies themself only via success, in the good ways and in the bad ways, so it means if you’re successful, people like you, they want interviews from you, you get sponsor contracts, you’re very well known. And you reduce yourself to it because your life is so focused on performance, purely on performance, and on the other side, if you’re on the other range, if you are not successful, people don’t want you. You cannot just reduce it to the athlete, it’s the whole system – the public that wants new records, that wants harder Tour de France stages, that want to see more suffering live, spectacular crashes at the Formula One, so the whole concept.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
It’s gorgeous to see Usain Bolt too, of course. I mean, we’ve got to be realistic too. It is fabulous when you see a remarkable talent, isn’t it?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah.

GAYELENE CLEWS
But actually even some of the families need support with the transition. If you are a spouse and you’ve actually been supporting your athlete for 10 years through this journey, you might not actually be ready for what life is going to be like after sport, when that person retires. So, there’s a lot we can do there to make that transition.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, that’s what the big football clubs have come to terms with. I mean, Joerg, is this sounding realistic to you?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, so I’m sharing your opinion because...so if you’re an athlete, you’re living actually in a parallel sphere and you have an artificial social circle around you, which suddenly breaks up and in this artificial social circle, you have dependencies. So, your trainer’s dependent from you, you’re dependent from your trainer and there’s a very close relationship. But at the moment when you’re not good enough, your trainer will step on and go to the next athlete. So, in this moment when you’re out of the system, you start at scratch, at zero. You’re in real life and that’s what you never had in sports because everything was about your performance and now, suddenly, it’s about... Like me, I’m going to university, you have to start studying, and there is a lot of pressure and that involved.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Looks like this got missed, but unsurprisingly given the source.

Jaksche was a guest on Australian ABC TV's Compass program a few days ago. It's a program mostly about religion, and faith so not the place you'd expect to hear about doping. They had a program to chat about sport's ethics.

Episode here you can watch:
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s4498241.htm

Some quotes from Jorge:

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, let’s develop this a little bit more now, in terms of the...what is encouraged, the mentality encouraged. I mean, it does appear, Joerg, that cheating has become commonplace, if I can put it like that. Maybe... You can tell me if I’m wrong. Certainly in your sport of cycling.

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, in cycling, it was always... I always explain it in the way that in 1904, I think that was the first Tour de France, the first three or four riders were disqualified because they took the train, and the fifth rider actually had the same time like the fourth rider, so he must have taken, also, the train but they did not catch him on the train. So, probably he was sitting on the train, on the top of the... I don’t know but, anyway, so, there is a long story about cheating, at least in cycling, and the funny thing about, uh...or the awkward thing about cheating in cycling is that doping has never been seen as cheating. So, we have...

GERALDINE DOOGUE
So, what’s it seen as?

JOERG JAKSCHE
As part of the business, as...

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Seriously?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, yeah.

TRACEY HOLMES
It’s an expectation.

JOERG JAKSCHE
It was...at that time, it was a systematic problem, so you were expected, by your team management, to participate.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
But it’s seen as performance-enhancing, then, is it? Is that how you’d put it?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, yeah.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Like, this is really important. The language matters, doesn’t it?

GAYELENE CLEWS
It’s normalising it, isn’t it?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, you would never talk about doping, you would talk about, um, drugs, of course, but you would never say, “This is doping,” or “This is illegal,” knowing very well that it is illegal. So, my team management at that time from a very big German team, they said to me, “Listen, we think you’re talented, but if you want to be successful in this sport, this is the way how it works. So, you can either participate in this system...” No-one urges you and pushes you...

GERALDINE DOOGUE
It’s your choice.

JOERG JAKSCHE
“It’s your choice. But we will also tell you that the likeliness that you will get another contract after two years is quite low.” And when you’re 19, 20, and you have the dream of participating in the Tour de France or participating at Rio and someone comes and kind of justifies taking drugs or PEDs, and all the entourage around you, so the doctor is involved, the team manager is involved, so everyone knows about it, so they take this bad feeling away from you that you’re cheating because actually everyone else is doing it, it is somehow fine for you and when you cross this line, you’re in the system. You will never get back out of the system.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, you outed yourself, didn’t you?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, I outed myself. But...because I was mainly fed up with the hypocrisy, that, as Tracey said it...that it’s only about the sportsman. The sportsman, at the end of the day, is only a really small pattern, really small mosaic stone, in this whole huge business. The big money is made around them and they must be there in order to make money, but they are easy to exchange.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, that was in that last episode of Barracuda where the... I thought, anyway. It was quite well done. ..where the young man, something had happened to him, bit like watching Nick Kyrgios... (LAUGHS) ..and you just think, “Well, do we just accept that or do we work with...do we work with it?” I don’t know what you think about that, Joerg.

JOERG JAKSCHE
Well, I think the athlete, I think they call it the biographic trap, so the athlete actually identifies themself only via success, in the good ways and in the bad ways, so it means if you’re successful, people like you, they want interviews from you, you get sponsor contracts, you’re very well known. And you reduce yourself to it because your life is so focused on performance, purely on performance, and on the other side, if you’re on the other range, if you are not successful, people don’t want you. You cannot just reduce it to the athlete, it’s the whole system – the public that wants new records, that wants harder Tour de France stages, that want to see more suffering live, spectacular crashes at the Formula One, so the whole concept.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
It’s gorgeous to see Usain Bolt too, of course. I mean, we’ve got to be realistic too. It is fabulous when you see a remarkable talent, isn’t it?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah.

GAYELENE CLEWS
But actually even some of the families need support with the transition. If you are a spouse and you’ve actually been supporting your athlete for 10 years through this journey, you might not actually be ready for what life is going to be like after sport, when that person retires. So, there’s a lot we can do there to make that transition.

GERALDINE DOOGUE
Well, that’s what the big football clubs have come to terms with. I mean, Joerg, is this sounding realistic to you?

JOERG JAKSCHE
Yeah, so I’m sharing your opinion because...so if you’re an athlete, you’re living actually in a parallel sphere and you have an artificial social circle around you, which suddenly breaks up and in this artificial social circle, you have dependencies. So, your trainer’s dependent from you, you’re dependent from your trainer and there’s a very close relationship. But at the moment when you’re not good enough, your trainer will step on and go to the next athlete. So, in this moment when you’re out of the system, you start at scratch, at zero. You’re in real life and that’s what you never had in sports because everything was about your performance and now, suddenly, it’s about... Like me, I’m going to university, you have to start studying, and there is a lot of pressure and that involved.

Interesting. Thanks for that. Latest copy of Ride magazine also had an interview with him which was quite good.

 

[movingtarget]

Joerg Jaksche Interview

http://www.ridemedia.com.au/interviews/operacion-puerto-continues-legacy-of-a-doping-scandal/

 

[Nomad]

Jaskche speaks out on TUEs & Sky:

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/

 

[TeflonDub]

Jaskche speaks out on TUEs & Sky:

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/

Strongly endorsed by Rasmussen. https://twitter.com/mrasmussen1974/status/777511231892647939

These are the guys that need to be interviewed, not the Dave Brailsford's, Seb Coe's and Craig Reedie's of the world.

 

[BullsFan22]

Jaskche speaks out on TUEs & Sky:

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/

Strongly endorsed by Rasmussen. https://twitter.com/mrasmussen1974/status/777511231892647939

These are the guys that need to be interviewed, not the Dave Brailsford's, Seb Coe's and Craig Reedie's of the world.

Unfortunately Rasmussen and Jaksche don't have that much power, money, influence and resources. Plus I don't think Jaksche would really want to go back to the mess that is professional cycling/UCI.

 

[Benotti69]

Jaskche speaks out on TUEs & Sky:

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/

Strongly endorsed by Rasmussen. https://twitter.com/mrasmussen1974/status/777511231892647939

These are the guys that need to be interviewed, not the Dave Brailsford's, Seb Coe's and Craig Reedie's of the world.

Unfortunately Rasmussen and Jaksche don't have that much power, money, influence and resources. Plus I don't think Jaksche would really want to go back to the mess that is professional cycling/UCI.

Teflon is not advocating Jaksche returns to the sport, but they be interviewed about these relevant issues as these guys are open and honest about their time in the sport.

 

[sniper]

Exactemubdo. Getting denials from the horses mouths is one of those phenomena in present day sports journalism for which words like quadruple face palm were invented.

Big props to jaksche and shane stokes

 

[TeflonDub]

Yeah, I'm sick of these vested interests being afforded so much free air time to help them manage their message. If journalists aren't making the administrators and bosses squirm, there isn't any point talking to them. Give them a call if you need to get them on the record about a particular issue or question, but printing what they spout when you ask them "why are you so awesome?" is just patronizing drivel. It doesn't serve the public/fan interest by giving them insight into the sport, it just serves as an unpaid apologist for corporations and governing bodies. Sick hearing it.

 

[Captain Serious]

Re:

I just read this little nugget in Cadel Evans' most recent book, The Art Of Cycling.
The context is riders getting busted doping.

"I've noticed that it's the most unfriendly and unreasonably nervous people who are, one by one, being taken out. In my first Tour in 2005, there was a German rider for Liberty Seguros-Wurth who was not at all likeable. I didn't know anyone in the group who actually liked him.

A year or two later he was caught up in Operacion Puerto, his career was over, and cycling never heard of him again. I don't think he was missed at all. It might seem like fate or karma that the most unlikeable riders are being busted and removed from the sport, but maybe there's more to it."

So, I obviously looked it up and, from what I can tell, the only German guy on that team that year was Jaksche.
Oooh, juicy.
Please correct me if I (or Wikipedia ) am wrong.

Sure, this is just his view, but still..... JUICY :razz:

 

[Robert5091]

see http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/liberty-seguros-wurth-for-tour-de-france/
June 24, 2005 - At the completion of its training camp in Puente Viesgo, Spain, the Liberty Seguros-Würth team has named its nine riders for the Tour de France: Joseba Beloki, Alberto Contador, Allan Davis, Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano, Roberto Heras, Jörg Jaksche, Luis León Sanchez, Marcos Serrano and Ángel Vicioso will all ride, with Jan Hruska and René Andrle down as reserves.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Re: Re:

I just read this little nugget in Cadel Evans' most recent book, The Art Of Cycling.
The context is riders getting busted doping.

"I've noticed that it's the most unfriendly and unreasonably nervous people who are, one by one, being taken out. In my first Tour in 2005, there was a German rider for Liberty Seguros-Wurth who was not at all likeable. I didn't know anyone in the group who actually liked him.

A year or two later he was caught up in Operacion Puerto, his career was over, and cycling never heard of him again. I don't think he was missed at all. It might seem like fate or karma that the most unlikeable riders are being busted and removed from the sport, but maybe there's more to it."

So, I obviously looked it up and, from what I can tell, the only German guy on that team that year was Jaksche.
Oooh, juicy.
Please correct me if I (or Wikipedia ) am wrong.

Sure, this is just his view, but still..... JUICY :razz:

Not saying anything yea or nay re JJ, but this is pretty rich coming from Cuddles, with his own reputation for being not at all prickly and never difficult.

edit- and Cuddles ought to have a look at what Beloki has said in praise of Jaksche.

 

[purcell]

Re: Re:

I just read this little nugget in Cadel Evans' most recent book, The Art Of Cycling.
The context is riders getting busted doping.

"I've noticed that it's the most unfriendly and unreasonably nervous people who are, one by one, being taken out. In my first Tour in 2005, there was a German rider for Liberty Seguros-Wurth who was not at all likeable. I didn't know anyone in the group who actually liked him.

A year or two later he was caught up in Operacion Puerto, his career was over, and cycling never heard of him again. I don't think he was missed at all. It might seem like fate or karma that the most unlikeable riders are being busted and removed from the sport, but maybe there's more to it."

So, I obviously looked it up and, from what I can tell, the only German guy on that team that year was Jaksche.
Oooh, juicy.
Please correct me if I (or Wikipedia ) am wrong.

Sure, this is just his view, but still..... JUICY :razz:

Christ, people will pay money to read this absolute s$%t?

People are stupider than I thought. What drivel.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I just read this little nugget in Cadel Evans' most recent book, The Art Of Cycling.
The context is riders getting busted doping.

"I've noticed that it's the most unfriendly and unreasonably nervous people who are, one by one, being taken out. In my first Tour in 2005, there was a German rider for Liberty Seguros-Wurth who was not at all likeable. I didn't know anyone in the group who actually liked him.

A year or two later he was caught up in Operacion Puerto, his career was over, and cycling never heard of him again. I don't think he was missed at all. It might seem like fate or karma that the most unlikeable riders are being busted and removed from the sport, but maybe there's more to it."

So, I obviously looked it up and, from what I can tell, the only German guy on that team that year was Jaksche.
Oooh, juicy.
Please correct me if I (or Wikipedia ) am wrong.

Sure, this is just his view, but still..... JUICY :razz:

Christ, people will pay money to read this absolute s$%t?

People are stupider than I thought. What drivel.

Aussie Freds will lap up just about anything Evans has to say. He could refer to Armstrong as the nicest, cleanest guy to ever race a bike and the Australian cycling media would still hesitate to correct him.

 

[hrotha]

It's funny because Evans himself didn't exactly have a reputation as a friendly, calm guy.

Regardless of its factual merits, damn that is some bad writing.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Aussie Freds will lap up just about anything Evans has to say. He could STILL refer to Armstrong as the nicest, cleanest guy to ever race a bike and the Australian cycling media would still hesitate to correct him.

CFA

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I just read this little nugget in Cadel Evans' most recent book, The Art Of Cycling.
The context is riders getting busted doping.

"I've noticed that it's the most unfriendly and unreasonably nervous people who are, one by one, being taken out. In my first Tour in 2005, there was a German rider for Liberty Seguros-Wurth who was not at all likeable. I didn't know anyone in the group who actually liked him.

A year or two later he was caught up in Operacion Puerto, his career was over, and cycling never heard of him again. I don't think he was missed at all. It might seem like fate or karma that the most unlikeable riders are being busted and removed from the sport, but maybe there's more to it."

So, I obviously looked it up and, from what I can tell, the only German guy on that team that year was Jaksche.
Oooh, juicy.
Please correct me if I (or Wikipedia ) am wrong.

Sure, this is just his view, but still..... JUICY :razz:

ok, the funny anecdote from around 2006 new Deutschland Tour, or was it 2007, anyway, one of the Tour of Gemany(s), when it was a Protour, the new iteration, not the old 2.1 Tour of Germany, the new Protour Deutschland Tour.

I think it was a year that Levi won GC. He may have been off the front, or Jens was off the front, and Jens won GC, I cant remember, all I remember, was Cuddles, asking Jaksche to work, I think there may have been two Liberty Riders, and Cadel, chasing Levi in Gerolsteiner.

JJ told Cuddles, "get fucked arsehole" those words quoted verbatim. 10% chance, it happened in inverse, the scenario was the opposite. I am gonna start a new thread on amusing anecdotes.