Juan Ayuso discussion thread

[Cycling111]

Go watch Vuelta 22, stage 4 and review your post accordingly

It would be better to review what some people said about Remco during the 2023 Vuelta Kuss won. For me, it was a failure. The man who should have been Visma's greatest rival ended up getting permission from Visma to win stages in consented breakaways.

That's a failure. Winning three stages like that is a success for Castrillo last year, or it would have been for Marco Frigo today.


How many stages would Pogacar win in a GT if he forgot about the GC?
Vingegaard didn't win a stage in the Tour. If he'd been half an hour behind like Arensmann, maybe he would have.

This is ultimately a huge failure for Ayuso. Someone who has spent two years demanding to be the leader at The Vuelta and wanting to be the best in the world, it's a failure that he isn't even a podium contender and has become a stages seeker like Jay Vine.
He'll be far superior in this and he´ll win 4 stages; the level of breakaways in the Vuelta this year is very low. It's the easy path for someone at his level, but he doesn't want to be beaten by Vingegaard and Almeida. Now he has the excuse that he didn't want to. When a cyclist, who demands so much leadership, keeps stringing together excuses in different GTs, it's a failure of his original purpose and diminishes the value of his demands.

Ayuso, who hopes to lead GT and become the best in the world, has Ciccone's permission to win stages in breakaways. Even if he wins four stages, that can't be seen as a success because he's lowered his standards to that of lower-level cyclists.
Even a post-accident Egan Bernal has more ambition to compete againts the best.

Ayuso still hasn't won a major race against any of the best cyclists. He even lost Volta Catalunya against 36-year Roglic, whose level has slipped. He demands to be a leader against the best but now he avoids it.

Those who most defended him as one of the best in the world now say it's okay for him to adopt the attitude of Fortunato and Frigo in this Vuelta. They lower the bar, but they want to convince you that it's okay for him to refuse to be domestique in a Tour for the best cyclist in the world and to generate constant conflicts with his team over leadership. How incoherence.

 

[CyclistAbi]

This has to be one of the biggest busts in terms of sports media/fandom narrative going south in recent years. Not only is Ayuso here to help secure Almeida overall victory, already did lions share at TTT, he then goes and wins a stage in dominate fashion, only a day after he is accused of being superb domestique, suddenly that being a bad thing, proclaimed by sporst media/fandom. Basically a backup narrative made up once the original narrative of him being the worst domestique fall to shambles.

Chapeau!

 

[bNator]

This has to be one of the biggest busts in terms of sports media/fandom narrative going south in recent years. Not only is Ayuso here to help secure Almeida overall victory, already did lions share at TTT, he then goes and wins a stage in dominate fashion, only a day after he is accused of being superb domestique, suddenly that being a bad thing, proclaimed by sporst media/fandom. Basically a backup narrative made up once the original narrative of him being the worst domestique fall to shambles.

Chapeau!

What on earth are you talking about? Terrible domestique is an understatement. Outside of last years Galibier he has yet to spin a pedal stroke for anyone but himself. I’m betting Jonas has done more domestique duty after his first Tour than Ayuso has in the same timeframe. Ok if the results were there, no problem. But they haven’t been for some time now.

But as you like to say. We’ll see. If he actually pulls for Joao… going for stage win glory doesn’t count as domestique work no matter how hard you try to spin it…

 

[CyclistAbi]

@bNator

I see, you are still hooked on the worst domestique possible narrative. It'll come around.

 

[Tim Cahill]

This has to be one of the biggest busts in terms of sports media/fandom narrative going south in recent years. Not only is Ayuso here to help secure Almeida overall victory, already did lions share at TTT, he then goes and wins a stage in dominate fashion, only a day after he is accused of being superb domestique, suddenly that being a bad thing, proclaimed by sporst media/fandom. Basically a backup narrative made up once the original narrative of him being the worst domestique fall to shambles.

Chapeau!

Good post I see you were paying attention to the crucial role he played in his teams results a few weeks ago, fetching bottles in San Sebastián before helping young Del Toro to victory the day after by thinning the group on the last climb. A humble man, a man of integrity!

 

[Alien Performance]

I've never been convinced that Ayuso can reach the top level and winning stages against Marco Frigo is not going to bring him to the level of Jonas, never mind Tadej

 

[CyclistAbi]

Good post I see you were paying attention to the crucial role he played in his teams results a few weeks ago, fetching bottles in San Sebastián before helping young Del Toro to victory the day after by thinning the group on the last climb. A humble man, a man of integrity!

AFAIR that was Rogla.

 

[SHAD0W93]

This has to be one of the biggest busts in terms of sports media/fandom narrative going south in recent years. Not only is Ayuso here to help secure Almeida overall victory, already did lions share at TTT, he then goes and wins a stage in dominate fashion, only a day after he is accused of being superb domestique, suddenly that being a bad thing, proclaimed by sporst media/fandom. Basically a backup narrative made up once the original narrative of him being the worst domestique fall to shambles.

Chapeau!

It takes a big man and amazing domestique to scout ahead of their leader for threats in order to make sure the coast is clear.

 

[yaco]

Riders of what level?

Riders who have been begging to lead the Vuelta for two years?
Riders who say they want to be the best in the world?

Let's not confuse things. It's one thing to ask that of second-tier riders who aspire to finish ninth or tenth, and another thing to ask of a rider who was the third favorite for this Vuelta and who demands to be the GT leader for the general classification.
For a rider like that, it's a failure to get into Marco Frigo's group.
Marco Frigo will be required to fight for stages instead of finishing ninth without being on television; for Ayuso, it's a failure. Unless you don't see Ayuso as a GT contender and a candidate for the Big 6 anymore. For a Big 6 candidate, being a rival to Marco Frigo is a failure. The best have to be rivals of the best from the general classification.

If that's the opinion, then we assume Ayuso's level is far from sufficient to lead. We're putting him on the same level as Marco Frigo or riders like Einer Rubio, who finished top 10 in the Giro and was expected to forget about a discret GC and win a stage.

What Ayuso has done is the easy thing to do. Not being a rival to the best cyclists in the GC and become a rival to second level riders. It's easier to win a stage this way than in a head-to-head with Vingegaard and Ciccone.

It would be very easy for Pogacar, or Vingegaard, to win more stages if they were 20 minutes behind in the GC and not competing with the best. They could win against Marco Frigo in the breakaways, like Jay Vine. Even Jay Vine is being urged to join another team and fight for the GC, but not Ayuso. With that opinion, you're devaluing him, admitting that he's not one of the greats and doesn't have to have the urge to try to rival Vingegaard in this Vuelta, even if it's in a 2 vs 1 with Almeida.
When he doesn't want to work on a Tour for Pogacar or on this Vuelta for Almeida, he'll have to be reminded that he's a stage cyclist, inferior status to those who sacrifice for the GC.

I am the one suggesting that Vine should move teams to ride the TDF. However, I have never suggested he should ride for GC. Stop inventing facts.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It takes a big man and amazing domestique to scout ahead of their leader for threats in order to make sure the coast is clear.

I don't feel that Visma is happy, by UAE winning stages. At minimum it puts them under growing pressure, after all it's Visma that was supposed to do that, plan A. Being forced to switch to conservative mode all while watching UAE winning and Jonas not gaining any time on Almeida. That is difficult situation to be in, for Visma. By winning this race they can still salvage it but if by any chance they won't win the overall, then the backlash will be huge, both internal and external.

 

[Berniece]

Riders of what level?

Riders who have been begging to lead the Vuelta for two years?
Riders who say they want to be the best in the world?

Let's not confuse things. It's one thing to ask that of second-tier riders who aspire to finish ninth or tenth, and another thing to ask of a rider who was the third favorite for this Vuelta and who demands to be the GT leader for the general classification.
For a rider like that, it's a failure to get into Marco Frigo's group.
Marco Frigo will be required to fight for stages instead of finishing ninth without being on television; for Ayuso, it's a failure. Unless you don't see Ayuso as a GT contender and a candidate for the Big 6 anymore. For a Big 6 candidate, being a rival to Marco Frigo is a failure. The best have to be rivals of the best from the general classification.

If that's the opinion, then we assume Ayuso's level is far from sufficient to lead. We're putting him on the same level as Marco Frigo or riders like Einer Rubio, who finished top 10 in the Giro and was expected to forget about a discret GC and win a stage.

What Ayuso has done is the easy thing to do. Not being a rival to the best cyclists in the GC and become a rival to second level riders. It's easier to win a stage this way than in a head-to-head with Vingegaard and Ciccone.

It would be very easy for Pogacar, or Vingegaard, to win more stages if they were 20 minutes behind in the GC and not competing with the best. They could win against Marco Frigo in the breakaways, like Jay Vine. Even Jay Vine is being urged to join another team and fight for the GC, but not Ayuso. With that opinion, you're devaluing him, admitting that he's not one of the greats and doesn't have to have the urge to try to rival Vingegaard in this Vuelta, even if it's in a 2 vs 1 with Almeida.
When he doesn't want to work on a Tour for Pogacar or on this Vuelta for Almeida, he'll have to be reminded that he's a stage cyclist, inferior status to those who sacrifice for the GC.

You know what might help to properly prepare for the Vuelta? Knowing beforehand that you are riding it. After the giro for example, it would’ve been nice that he could’ve set a new goal. But Pogacar wanted to ride the Vuelta, so Ayuso wasn’t on the shortlist. Not Ayuso’s fault that Pogacar changed his mind and decides everything at UAE.

 

[bNator]

@bNator

I see, you are still hooked on the worst domestique possible narrative. It'll come around.

Not everything is a narrative and sometimes, facts are obvious. I don’t need to be manipulated into thinking Ayuso is a bad domestique - I watch races, you know.

In fact, it’s you who is running the “narrative thing” trying to distort reality to fit your agenda…

 

[SHAD0W93]

I don't feel that Visma is happy, by UAE winning stages. At minimum it puts them under growing pressure, after all it's Visma that was supposed to do that, plan A. Being forced to switch to conservative mode all while watching UAE winning and Jonas not gaining any time on Almeida. That is difficult situation to be in, for Visma. By winning this race they can still salvage it but if by any chance they won't win the overall, then the backlash will be huge, both internal and external.

If Visma wasn’t happy with two UAE riders in the break they shouldn’t have set a slow pace. But yes if Vingegaard doesn’t win, they’ll have a lot of egg on their face. Especially if Almeida is the one that wins.

 

[SHAD0W93]

You know what might help to properly prepare for the Vuelta? Knowing beforehand that you are riding it. After the giro for example, it would’ve been nice that he could’ve set a new goal. But Pogacar wanted to ride the Vuelta, so Ayuso wasn’t on the shortlist. Not Ayuso’s fault that Pogacar changed his mind and decides everything at UAE.

Ayuso was the one wanting to come here and ride while badgering UAE if the rumors are true. Then UAE said when Ayuso was announced that he is very excited and motivated to ride the Vuelta and is looking for a high overall placement. If he wasn’t on the short list, he wouldn’t be in the race right now.

 

[Salvarani]

Mikkel Bjerg said to Danish television after today's stage that if Ayuso only thought he could perhaps finish 6th in GC, it was right for him to hunt stages instead. Still since he didn't even try yesterday he couldn't possibly know what his ceiling in this race was. If he actually had been able to finish 6th, which I very much doubt, it's pretty stupid to throw it away already in case other riders will be hit by bad luck later on.

Ayuso did it the Remco way

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Ayuso did it the Remco way

With the difference that Remco won his first stage in that race from the peloton and didn't throw his GC away before stage 13.

 

[Berniece]

Ayuso was the one wanting to come here and ride while badgering UAE if the rumors are true. Then UAE said when Ayuso was announced that he is very excited and motivated to ride the Vuelta and is looking for a high overall placement. If he wasn’t on the short list, he wouldn’t be in the race right now.

During TDF UAE said Pogacar was going to ride the Vuelta. So Ayuso was not riding it. It wasn’t until after TDF when Pogacar said I’m mentally fatigued that Ayuso was added to Vuelta roster. He thought his goal was going to be WC. Which is a different type of preparation which you clearly see in his performance now.

 

[Salvarani]

With the difference that Remco won his first stage in that race from the peloton and didn't throw his GC away before stage 13.

Was more so speaking to the giving up part, while being able to do better

As have happened numerous times since then

 

[Cycling111]

I want to see Ayuso at LIDL when they ask him to lead Pedersen in the stages, or if they decide to make Skjelmose the leader in Ardennes Classic, just as they decided to leave Pedersen out of the Tour for Milan. That's how LIDL works; all the riders have to work, even Ciccone has to do it during the Giro stages for Pedersen, even if he's fighting for his position in GC.

Or they're capable of leaving Pedersen out of the Tour at the peak of his entire career to accommodate the Milan schedule.LIDL doesn't give in to pressure from its riders; it's a team that forces everyone to be domestiques on some stages and takes races off the calendar to please the entire team. Things Ayuso hasn't stopped complaining about.

How will Ayuso handle sharing the spotlight with Pedersen in a Tour? Having half the team go to help Pedersen, and even he has to do it because that's how they operate at LIDL. Or having Ardennes share the spotlight with others.On a smaller scale, but it's going to have everything he doesn't like about the UAE. Only at LIDL, everyone is more obligated to be a domestique than at the UAE. LOL
Even the GC contender has to help Pedersen, and Pedersen has to help the GC contenders the stage before another one that suits him.For me, Ayuso was an Ineos or Movistar-type rider. Teams that prioritize the GC and don't have another star or rider who just won Amstel or finished second in Liège. He would have been the absolute leader, and they would have dedicated the entire Tour to him. LIDL will field half a team in Tour for Pedersen or Milan, and in the classics, Pedersen is the number one leader; in the rest, he'll have to share the field with Sjeklmose and younger riders. LIDL is another team that's is signing several promising U23 riders

Leaking the news the day after winning the stage is no coincidence. It's yet another demonstration that he doesn't care about anyone but himself. But the team deserves it. Matxin deserves it for wanting to be complacent and signing 10 riders to be leaders. The worst part is that the rest already know how to stir up the team to get their way, and if they don't, they'll leave. It's very easy to threaten them from now on.

I predict Christen will be next. Del Toro seems to have a different personality.
I think he'll end up marching to lead, but without making so much fuss for three years.

 

[SHAD0W93]

During TDF UAE said Pogacar was going to ride the Vuelta. So Ayuso was not riding it. It wasn’t until after TDF when Pogacar said I’m mentally fatigued that Ayuso was added to Vuelta roster. He thought his goal was going to be WC. Which is a different type of preparation which you clearly see in his performance now.

But if the rumors are true that Ayuso was the one asking UAE to ride the Vuelta, you’d think he’d try to be in shape for a GT. Especially when the talk was going for GC before he lost the time.

 

[Red Rick]

With the difference that Remco won his first stage in that race from the peloton and didn't throw his GC away before stage 13.

He did throw it away though. I don't remember if he said he didn't care about the podium or if it was podium or bust, but he did drop half an hour to go farm stages against farmers immediately after.

And it was oh so exciting to be left with a Visma 1-2-3 because Evenepoel couldn't finish within half an hour of Sepp Kuss. In addition, Evenepoel's Vuelta team was built around him, while Ayuso wasn't even the team leader to begin with and they always stage hunt on the side if Pogacar isn't there.

 

[yaco]

No team in their right mind will send a whole team to support Ayuso at the TDF. Too have this opinion is plain silly.

 

[Didinho]

Someone from Visma told him before the stage they wouldn’t let him in the break. So he was even more motivated to try it.

 

[Cycling111]

Someone from Visma told him before the stage they wouldn’t let him in the break. So he was even more motivated to try it.

Do you believe it? Visma didn't even make a move to control the stage.
Yesterday care about Ayuso as much as Marco Frigo. That's what happens when you lose so many minutes. They don't care, just as they didn't care about Remco in 2023 after losing half an hour.

It was already clear that Visma didn't make the slightest effort to control yesterday's stage or Ayuso.

If Visma said that to him, it was a way of making fun of him because they've taken him away as a rival, because we didn't see any of that yesterday.

 

[SHAD0W93]

He did throw it away though. I don't remember if he said he didn't care about the podium or if it was podium or bust, but he did drop half an hour to go farm stages against farmers immediately after.

And it was oh so exciting to be left with a Visma 1-2-3 because Evenepoel couldn't finish within half an hour of Sepp Kuss. In addition, Evenepoel's Vuelta team was built around him, while Ayuso wasn't even the team leader to begin with and they always stage hunt on the side if Pogacar isn't there.

Evenepoel had said he wanted to win and didn’t care about podium.