Juan Ayuso discussion thread

[Ripper]

It's the only good reason to be that far back. It's the kinder interpretation of his action too, because the alternative is that he's simply a moron. And then I get accused of unfairly crapping on riders again.

The fact that they had no idea that something was going to happen at the base of a final climb, and thus were both poorly positioned, actually makes them both morons. Just Ayuso also looks like a shyte teammate.

 

[Ripper]

I'd like to know if they instruct them at all

I think you are wise to their (non) tactical nous!

 

[Red Rick]

The fact that they had no idea that something was going to happen at the base of a final climb, and thus were both poorly positioned, actually makes them both morons. Just Ayuso also looks like a shyte teammate.

Nah domestiques save themselves on such stages all the time.

I think the interesting thing is actually the main argument is he should have been shown "trying" with no expectation whatsoever that it would be any important contribution.

 

[Brullnux]

And Ayuso is not a team player. He'd be a terrible fit for Lidl Trek.

This is a good point, actually. There seems to be an agreement/spirit within the team where nobody is too good or protected to work for others. They have four leaders in the team, and in the past two years we have seen Pedersen ride for Ciccone, Ciccone lead out Pedersen, Skjelmose help out here and there, and Milan put in sacrificial work in the classics for Mads.

It is unlikely Ayuso will ever do that – though maybe if he is promised full GC leadership he would help out teammates who aren't fighting the same battle as him. I wonder if Lidl's desire for a GC candidate outweighs him not really fitting the current ethos of the team

 

[Ripper]

Nah domestiques save themselves on such stages all the time.

I think the interesting thing is actually the main argument is he should have been shown "trying" with no expectation whatsoever that it would be any important contribution.

A team like UAE has no real excuse for not being prepared. I mean, basically that is what VLAB and other teams would be looking for - UAE being inattentive, which they would then try to exploit.

And when you are being watched for being a crap teammate, I think showing you are trying becomes a touch more important.

Edit - I mean, at this point, he is less useful that Soler. Soler!!!!!

 

[Ripper]

This is a good point, actually. There seems to be an agreement/spirit within the team where nobody is too good or protected to work for others. They have four leaders in the team, and in the past two years we have seen Pedersen ride for Ciccone, Ciccone lead out Pedersen, Skjelmose help out here and there, and Milan put in sacrificial work in the classics for Mads.

It is unlikely Ayuso will ever do that – though maybe if he is promised full GC leadership he would help out teammates who aren't fighting the same battle as him. I wonder if Lidl's desire for a GC candidate outweighs him not really fitting the current ethos of the team

I think if he goes to Lidl then we will get a clearer sense of how he is as a teammate I don't think the selfish behaviour would fly there at all. And if he does go that direction, I think his world tour days are numbered (unless he can back it up with huge wins from the get go)

 

[Brullnux]

I think if he goes to Lidl then we will get a clearer sense of how he is as a teammate I don't think the selfish behaviour would fly there at all. And if he does go that direction, I think his world tour days are numbered (unless he can back it up with huge wins from the get go)

Yeah, I think Ayuso is more likely to help someone in a race he can't win than in a race he wants to be leader in. That's the sense I get. If I were to really psychoanalyse him, I think there's an insecurity when he falls short of his own expectations that makes him tap out mentally, and without the kind of superego telling him that people won't like him for behaving in that way. So I don't think he'd refuse to help Ciccone or Pedersen in a one day race, but he would refuse to help Ciccone go for GC.

 

[Tim Cahill]

He's a pantomime villain in a sport lacking such characters. I would obviously never want him in my team, but luckily I'm a fan and not a professional, so I can sit back and enjoy the drama that unfolds.

Yeah exactly, providing a bit of entertainment/comic relief to what otherwise promises to be a rather dreary edition.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1962169134063460673

 

[Gratemans]

^this one actually made me spit out some of my beer

 

[Cycling111]

Yeah, I think Ayuso is more likely to help someone in a race he can't win than in a race he wants to be leader in. That's the sense I get. If I were to really psychoanalyse him, I think there's an insecurity when he falls short of his own expectations that makes him tap out mentally, and without the kind of superego telling him that people won't like him for behaving in that way. So I don't think he'd refuse to help Ciccone or Pedersen in a one day race, but he would refuse to help Ciccone go for GC.

He couldn't go to Lombardia because he'd have to be Pogacar's domestique. Every year, he's dropped himself from the startlist at the last minute. How could he be Ciccone's domestique in one-day races? If he can't do it for Pogacar, he must see Ciccone as far inferior to him.

 

[Gratemans]

He couldn't go to Lombardia because he'd have to be Pogacar's domestique. Every year, he's dropped himself from the startlist at the last minute. How could he be Ciccone's domestique in one-day races? If he can't do it for Pogacar, he must see Ciccone as far inferior to him.

It's mindboggling to be honest. Lidl is all about this "everybody works for everybody else when needed". They also select their riders on that premise. (Ciccone and Pedersen are happy to work for others).
And then they go and get Ayuso. The most "wtf?" transfer this season in my book. I'm still convinced Movistar should try and get Ayuso through some private funding from somewhere. Everybody would be better off. Including Lidl-Trek and UAE.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Stuck around in the Giro didn't he? Until he could no longer go.

People are consistently projecting the story they want to believe. Or if other UAE riders don't help each other it's just a meme. When Ayuso does it he's the worst guy in the peloton. Van Aert attacks when Vingegaard is dropped in an echelon, and Van Aert is suddenly too *** great to be a domestique.

Riders aren't being judged based on the action but based on the narrative that surrounds them.

[deleted]
I hope to be wrong though but there is not a single reason to support Ayuso, specially in the last stage.

 

[Brullnux]

I hope to be wrong though but there is not a single reason to support Ayuso, specially in the last stage.

Comic value?

 

[Unchained]

To me Lipowitz has to rank as the most likely TDF favorite outside of the big two. He finished 3rd in his first attempt at the TDF at age 24, and was the only other guy who could follow (for a while) when P. and V. did their thing.

Don't get me wrong Lipowitz has an ever improving resume, shows over and over that he is mentally strong and smart. I want you to be right that after firing Rolf Aldag, needing a bigger bus for ego and expectations, Bora treats Lipowitz with respect and support. But if UAE, Visma are the roadmap is difficult to balance and showcase, support multiple good riders with either proven GC results or GC aspirations. I hope Bora can pull it off.

Majka?

They couldn't for multiple reasons, retirement and final Tour of Poland a bit tight, and he crashed there..he could have and should have skipped Germany!!

 

[AlpRaid]

...he must see Ciccone as far inferior to him.

I think he sees everyone as inferior to him. that is the problem. I remember him as a 19 year old in one of his first pro races refusing to work for his team leader and even attacking.

I blame the parents who had the means and weird drive to set him up on a professional training regimen at the age of two (an exaggeration) and uae for catering to his brattish behavior for years now.

 

[yaco]

No, I didn't, you're strawmanning.
I said "Redbull, Soudal, Decathlon and Arkea had close to a full team supporting their leaders. Even Ineos had plenty of support riders", to contradict what you said that only UAE and Visma were able to do so, which wasn't true.

UAE is 100% failing at supporting their leader so far in this Vuelta. There's no way around it.

And Ayuso is not a team player. He'd be a terrible fit for Lidl Trek.

I don't care where Ayuso rides in 2025, because he has his own characteristics which make it hard for any team. The only rider in the peleton who has a full team surrounding him is Pogacar, so these support riders have limited opportunities to ride for themselves. Finally, my definition of full team support is the support riders do not seek their own opportunities.

 

[AmRacer]

I don't care where Ayuso rides in 2025, because he has his own characteristics which make it hard for any team. The only rider in the peleton who has a full team surrounding him is Pogacar, so these support riders have limited opportunities to ride for themselves. Finally, my definition of full team support is the support riders do not seek their own opportunities.

Like Wellens in the Tour?

 

[tobydawq]

It's the only good reason to be that far back. It's the kinder interpretation of his action too, because the alternative is that he's simply a moron. And then I get accused of unfairly crapping on riders again.

Sorry but what you're being accused of in this thread is exactly the opposite of crapping on a rider...

 

[Rou]

Will be hilarious if we see him in the break on the Belagua stage.
Pogi will be waiting for him in a chopper at the top of the climb to have a chat.

 

[Netserk]

Sorry but what you're being accused of in this thread is exactly the opposite of crapping on a rider...

I read it as the alternative was to call him a moron and -then- get accused of crapping on riders.

 

[tobydawq]

I read it as the alternative was to call him a moron and -then- get accused of crapping on riders.

Ah, you're probably right.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I find it profoundly healthy and pro-social to offer the most reasonable counterarguments.

I can't say the same about personal remarks.

You are right but I had to make that observation because "he is much more than that" and occasionally he gives some opinions just to "be different" IMO. It looks like a personal attack but I'm not doing it (or the goal wasn'tto make it like a personal attack). In fact, I think he is a great asset to this forum and have wonderful and reasonable thoughts about cycling (despite his silly humour).

 

[Berniece]

I don't see an issue with how he's riding. There's not obligation to ride for Almeida. That's not how UAE works. If everyone else can do what they want, I don't see why it should be different for him. Team only works as a team if it's for Pogacar, and otherwise it's everyone for themselves.

 

[Rou]

I don't see an issue with how he's riding. There's not obligation to ride for Almeida. That's not how UAE works. If everyone else can do what they want, I don't see why it should be different for him. Team only works as a team if it's for Pogacar, and otherwise it's everyone for themselves.

Interesting take. If next season Hindley doesn't pull for Remco in Tirreno and stays in the back of the group will you have the same opinion?

 

[Berniece]

Interesting take. If next season Hindley doesn't pull for Remco in Tirreno and stays in the back of the group will you have the same opinion?

Is RBH a team where everyone can ride for themselves?