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Teams & Riders Julian Alaphilippe Discussion Thread

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Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
jmdirt said:
Great ride!

Can I restate how much I dislike time bonuses?! :mad: Let the road and the legs decide the time. Great have some sprint fun, but fake time has no place in the overall time.

If there was no bonus seconds, Ciccone would still be in yellow...

Did Ciccone got 6 bonus seconds for finishing 2nd on the stage? Also, I think he got some bonus second on the last climb as well being on the break.

Having say that, I'm ok with bonus seconds.
 
Re: Re:

can3478 said:
tobydawq said:
jmdirt said:
Great ride!

Can I restate how much I dislike time bonuses?! :mad: Let the road and the legs decide the time. Great have some sprint fun, but fake time has no place in the overall time.

If there was no bonus seconds, Ciccone would still be in yellow...

Did Ciccone got 6 bonus seconds for finishing 2nd on the stage? Also, I think he got some bonus second on the last climb as well being on the break.

Having say that, I'm ok with bonus seconds.

Yes he did, Alaphillipe losing his 10 second bonus from his stage win would counter act it.

Has a Grand Tour GC placment ever been decided by a bonus seconds? I vaguely remember Vino sprinting for bonus seconds in Paris but it could be my mind playing tricks
 
Re: Re:

Midnightfright said:
can3478 said:
tobydawq said:
jmdirt said:
Great ride!

Can I restate how much I dislike time bonuses?! :mad: Let the road and the legs decide the time. Great have some sprint fun, but fake time has no place in the overall time.

If there was no bonus seconds, Ciccone would still be in yellow...

Did Ciccone got 6 bonus seconds for finishing 2nd on the stage? Also, I think he got some bonus second on the last climb as well being on the break.

Having say that, I'm ok with bonus seconds.

Yes he did, Alaphillipe losing his 10 second bonus from his stage win would counter act it.

Has a Grand Tour GC placment ever been decided by a bonus seconds? I vaguely remember Vino sprinting for bonus seconds in Paris but it could be my mind playing tricks

Alaphilippe even got 15 seconds on stage 3 because he was second on the Mutigny hill. Ciccone got 14 today so he would be 7 seconds in front of Alaphilippe without them.

I'm also fine with them.

And yes, Vino did indeed gain a place from Leipheimer (5th) on the Champs in 2005. And bonus seconds have played plenty of roles - without bonuses, Leipheimer would have won the Vuelta in 2008 instead of Contador, for example. But you could probably make thousands of calculations like this; it's counterfactuals and not easy to account for the different racing situation no bonus seconds would have made. The Vino example is very easily attributable to the bonuses, though.

Also, midnightfright, I hope you are not too afraid right now, even if it's midnight.
 
Re:

yaco said:
Should have retained the yellow jersey if QS had more faith in his ability.
Hadn't it been for the boni seconds on the previous climb, he would have.
Teuns & Ciccone may have been stronger than anticipated. It wouldn't have mattered for any other rider of the breakaway.
DQS doesn't have the team to control the race in the mountains. Asgreen, Lampaert... they can't be expected to work every day on the flat for Viviani, and then drive the train in the mountains as well. Apparently when Devenyns was about to take over, the GC teams got involved.
 
Re: Re:

Midnightfright said:
can3478 said:
tobydawq said:
jmdirt said:
Great ride!

Can I restate how much I dislike time bonuses?! :mad: Let the road and the legs decide the time. Great have some sprint fun, but fake time has no place in the overall time.

If there was no bonus seconds, Ciccone would still be in yellow...

Did Ciccone got 6 bonus seconds for finishing 2nd on the stage? Also, I think he got some bonus second on the last climb as well being on the break.

Having say that, I'm ok with bonus seconds.

Yes he did, Alaphillipe losing his 10 second bonus from his stage win would counter act it.

Has a Grand Tour GC placment ever been decided by a bonus seconds? I vaguely remember Vino sprinting for bonus seconds in Paris but it could be my mind playing tricks
Bartali complained for all his life about 1950 Giro because Koblet gained minutes sprinting for bonuses.

That's from Bikeraceinfo report about the race:
Il Vecchio (now 36 years old)was furious at the outcome of the race. It wasn’t only that he felt that the Bianchi riders betrayed his kindness. Bartali accused the Giro organizers of being too imitative of the Tour when they gave time bonuses for winning stages and being first to the top of some mountains. The result was that by racing intelligently, the canny Koblet accumulated about ten minutes in time bonuses. Yet their final General Classification time difference was only about five minutes. In real time Bartali had completed the Giro with a shorter elapsed time. But the rules were the rules and everyone had to ride accordingly. There is no asterisk beside’s Koblet’s name in the Giro records noting that Gino actually rode faster.


I don't know if that's the only case of a GT winner decided by time bonuses but at that time the time bonuses were really big (in some cases up to two minutes) and were awarded also on the top of the climbs.
 
The big mistake, as Michael Rasmussen rightfully pointed out which I haven't seen elsewhere, is QS giving the break 7 minutes for free in the start. Hold that on 3-4 instead minutes and its totally home safe. Wouldn't have had to ride harder on the climbs.
 
^^This. I tuned out for a while and the break went from "there are some strong guys in this move" to "7'30" when I got back.

That was way too much time to give a rider like Ciccone.

Nonetheless, Alaphilippe in yellow was always going to be a subplot. In the real gc race Thomas showed that he's going to be really hard to beat.
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
The big mistake, as Michael Rasmussen rightfully pointed out which I haven't seen elsewhere, is QS giving the break 7 minutes for free in the start. Hold that on 3-4 instead minutes and its totally home safe. Wouldn't have had to ride harder on the climbs.
Like i said in my previous post, they only have Asgreen and Lampaert for this type of work really. And those guys have to do their trick in every other flat stage for Viviani, as well as do the sprint train. They could have had Asgreen ride faster, and then maybe on the next stage, they are a man short for controlling the sprint.

In theory, hadn't they given them 8 minutes, they would have finished in time... all circumstances similar. However, that would in turn change the circumstances. If the break only had 4 minutes, who's to say that Movistar or AG2R, or even Ineos wouldn't have shifted a gear higher, because they could take the stage + yellow? Effectively dropping Alaphilippe on the climbs? There is simply no way to know.
 
The madness of the yellow jersey at Tour de France

video: The young lady in this video is so emotional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff14PQPys3I

photos:
D_G-r2lXoAAe0gF.jpg

D_NMyNCXYAETAfC.jpg
 
This raises the question: What would Alaphilippe have to do to become a legitimate GC threat? (Yeah, I know, the cheap n easy answer is to sign with Ineos...).

Needs work:

--First, he'd need to figure out how to climb at altitude in the bunch. Would he need to lose weight? He's pretty small already, so probably not. It might just be tweaking the training a bit. He probably lose some explosiveness but that would be the tradeoff.
--TT, but he's already OK, so would need to do a winter of aero testing to see where he could gain a few seconds here and there.
--Can he get the support he needs at DQS? They might have to jettison any sprint ambitions, although Sunweb would have had both MM and TD this year.


Solid:
--he's very strong tactically and mentally. so no worries there.
--he's a great descender
--shouldn't get caught out or dropped on stages where there's a few hills or muritos and the end.

The real question is what is his value add to the GC field? He'll be unlikely to climb with, say, a Carapaz or Landa or Froome; same with TT with Dumoulin or Thomas or Roglic. I suspect his tactical savvy would make the difference.

I personally think he could podium at a GT next year if he and the team put their mind to it. Maybe not the Tour but why not the Vuelta? Change the program to have an early peak, then build form in training in July/August.
 
Re:

Bolder said:
This raises the question: What would Alaphilippe have to do to become a legitimate GC threat? (Yeah, I know, the cheap n easy answer is to sign with Ineos...).

Needs work:

--First, he'd need to figure out how to climb at altitude in the bunch. Would he need to lose weight? He's pretty small already, so probably not. It might just be tweaking the training a bit. He probably lose some explosiveness but that would be the tradeoff.
--TT, but he's already OK, so would need to do a winter of aero testing to see where he could gain a few seconds here and there.
--Can he get the support he needs at DQS? They might have to jettison any sprint ambitions, although Sunweb would have had both MM and TD this year.


Solid:
--he's very strong tactically and mentally. so no worries there.
--he's a great descender
--shouldn't get caught out or dropped on stages where there's a few hills or muritos and the end.

The real question is what is his value add to the GC field? He'll be unlikely to climb with, say, a Carapaz or Landa or Froome; same with TT with Dumoulin or Thomas or Roglic. I suspect his tactical savvy would make the difference.

I personally think he could podium at a GT next year if he and the team put their mind to it. Maybe not the Tour but why not the Vuelta? Change the program to have an early peak, then build form in training in July/August.
Pretty much a rider who has to win a GT in all the hilly/tricky stages instead of winning in the high mountains or ITTs.

But really gets dropped like a stone too hard in the high mountains sooner or later.
 
Re:

Bolder said:
This raises the question: What would Alaphilippe have to do to become a legitimate GC threat? (Yeah, I know, the cheap n easy answer is to sign with Ineos...).

Needs work:

--First, he'd need to figure out how to climb at altitude in the bunch. Would he need to lose weight? He's pretty small already, so probably not. It might just be tweaking the training a bit. He probably lose some explosiveness but that would be the tradeoff.
--TT, but he's already OK, so would need to do a winter of aero testing to see where he could gain a few seconds here and there.
--Can he get the support he needs at DQS? They might have to jettison any sprint ambitions, although Sunweb would have had both MM and TD this year.


Solid:
--he's very strong tactically and mentally. so no worries there.
--he's a great descender
--shouldn't get caught out or dropped on stages where there's a few hills or muritos and the end.

The real question is what is his value add to the GC field? He'll be unlikely to climb with, say, a Carapaz or Landa or Froome; same with TT with Dumoulin or Thomas or Roglic. I suspect his tactical savvy would make the difference.

I personally think he could podium at a GT next year if he and the team put their mind to it. Maybe not the Tour but why not the Vuelta? Change the program to have an early peak, then build form in training in July/August.

He'd gain seconds in places where other GC riders would not. Short mur-type climbs, he could take 15 seconds in non-GC stages. Especially if these boni-climbs keep happening. I think he could take up to 2 minutes in a Tour just by taking 5, 10, 20 seconds in stages that other GC guy just have no shot. Plenty to make up for whatever he'd lose in an ITT. If he can hold on in the longer climbs, he could still take a few seconds in the final 500 meters.

Buuuuut... the question remains, is he capable of surviving the real mountains over 3 weeks without collapsing, or even just having a bad moment. Even if he changes his preparation and training.
 
A GC attempt by him at Vuelta 2020 would be something to watch with interest. As there are usually no/very few big mountain stages the risk of cracking is much smaller than in the other Grand Tours.
I'm not sure if he can sit on his butt long enough, as it is usually believed to be necessary to conserve as much energy as possible outside of a few critical situations to ride a succesful GC. He just doesn't seem to be the type for that.
 
Vuelta 2020 could make sense. It will most likely be Evenepoel's first GT as well. Not only could Evenepoel already be of help to Alaphilippe (should he try to go for GC), but it would make sense to build the team around them instead of a sprinter. But assuming Mas is gone, the only other guy they have that might survive some mountain stages, is James Knox. Maybe Serry and Devenyns (who will be 85 by then). Maybe Asgreen. But unless they sign new mountain guys, Ala & Remco would have to rely on each other in the real mountains. Assuming Evenepoel doesn't get out of the Vuelta in the second week, and assuming Ala can actually follow the favorites uphill.

EDIT: forgot Jungels... but is he going to dom in a GT?