junior races borderline doping

[Zorotheslacker]

...I've checked out the Strava pages of some Thom Wiesel sponsored Juniors in the recent past and was seeing (IMHO) waaaaay too many hours in the saddle.

What is wrong with mileage?

 

[D-Queued]

How do we know what a kid is taking or not? I do not think all MRI kids take all MRI products.

I struggle to think what you would give a teen - say 15-16 to make them better. Testosterone? It drips off of them right now anyway. EPO - maybe, but for what races? HGH - weight is an issue. Caffeine - 50mg seems good. The stuff that is illegal for adults may not help kids at all.

All the parents know each other. The biggest changes I see year to year come from growth and training and natural development. some kids are getting too big and others are not growing enough. I just don't see these supplements as an issue. Maybe training time vs. school. That is an issue.

Oh, contrare: "(Anabolic Steroid) effects in females and adolescent males are dramatic. In mature male swimmers, AAS effects are markedly reduced. These are still the drugs chosen by modern-day cheaters and cheating nations in swimming."

Moreover, HGH is a known abused substance among teenage basketball players.

How about Ritalin = amphetamines?

Seems cycling has been one sport promoted for those who suffer from ADHD. It wouldn't be possible that someone concerned about an ADHD condition might want to use some? You know, just to be safe?

Maybe some for their friends too?

Dave.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

Oh, contrare: "(Anabolic Steroid) effects in females and adolescent males are dramatic. In mature male swimmers, AAS effects are markedly reduced. These are still the drugs chosen by modern-day cheaters and cheating nations in swimming."

Moreover, HGH is a known abused substance among teenage basketball players.

How about Ritalin = amphetamines?

Seems cycling has been one sport promoted for those who suffer from ADHD. It wouldn't be possible that someone concerned about an ADHD condition might want to use some? You know, just to be safe?

Maybe some for their friends too?

Dave.

Well thanks for that. I'm not convinced the bulk from Steroids would help as much in boys outside of crits. I guess it might. In girls I have no doubt.

I still don't know why we think Juniors are taking any UCI banned substances. I expect some of the social drugs are taken, but at a much lower rate than their Jr. High and High School non athlete friends.

I know a very good Cat 2 (almost Cat 1) junior afraid of coffee. This kid does as well as the others.

The original poster started this thread and disappeared after 3 days. Smells to me like a personal hit on MRI followed by a hit on Specialized cause everyone is tired of them beating everyone. I see lots of reasons not to have Junior trade teams, but suggesting these kids are doping - or near that. I don't see any reason for suggesting that.

 

[Race Radio]

I still don't know why we think Juniors are taking any UCI banned substances.

Di Lucca started doping at 16. His family doctor helped him. While not as bad as it used to be the Italian U23 scene was insane in the 00's

 

[BigBoat]

There were no charts. Its hard to compare Jrs that started age little to adults. In the 80s when I raced there were no 9-18 year olds (groups of them) riding.

I'm confused what you mean by this, in the 1980s where I come from Junior fields were very large compared to where Junior fields are now...

 

[Race Radio]

I'm confused what you mean by this, in the 1980s where I come from Junior fields were very large compared to where Junior fields are now...

Exactly. Junior fields in the U.S. during the 80's were far bigger then now.....if there even is a junior field now, most of the time there are not even jr races

 

[BigBoat]

Exactly. Junior fields in the U.S. during the 80's were far bigger then now.....if there even is a junior field now, most of the time there are not even jr races

Yeah its a joke now, the 1970s (late 70s early 80s) were really the "Golden age" compared to say now. I can recall seeing old 100+ junior fields at very standard USCF criteriums/road races. It was a tad bit before my time, but I have seeing some old pics from time to time...

 

[Zorotheslacker]

I'm confused what you mean by this, in the 1980s where I come from Junior fields were very large compared to where Junior fields are now...

That is good input. I can't remember racing with any. In the 80s there were a few 40+ and many 20s and 30s.

I am responding to original post that junior performance was off the charts. Compared to what? Are Juniors better now than they were or should 14-18 yo boys not be able to beat men?

My statement was about digital data / charts on Jr. performance - the guys I went to didn't have any.

 

[Boeing]

Oh, contrare: "(Anabolic Steroid) effects in females and adolescent males are dramatic. In mature male swimmers, AAS effects are markedly reduced. These are still the drugs chosen by modern-day cheaters and cheating nations in swimming."

Moreover, HGH is a known abused substance among teenage basketball players.

How about Ritalin = amphetamines?

Seems cycling has been one sport promoted for those who suffer from ADHD. It wouldn't be possible that someone concerned about an ADHD condition might want to use some? You know, just to be safe?

Maybe some for their friends too?

Dave.

And years down the road will it be cool for them as masters to take and ride after Testosterone for alleged ED?

 

[blackcat]

Di Lucca started doping at 16. His family doctor helped him. While not as bad as it used to be the Italian U23 scene was insane in the 00's

jamie burrow WR for Plataeu de Beille still stands i think. he beat PAntanis record, and beat Thor in the tt in the u23 Ronde l'Izard during which he set the climbing record. And Thor won the u23 World tt that year! thats some crazy soignuers with hypodermics at that italian amateur team. amateur team. pro doping.

genevieve jeanson started at 16. so did oscar sevilla. Many swimmers, especially females, are starting this young, if they demonstrate the talent ofcourse. armstrong in triathlon, about 16 +/- a year.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

MRI / Specalized

My sphere of experience are the teams mentioned in this thread and the racers around them. And that is what I was thinking when posting, however I realize this is an international forum.

So let me try again as these USA teams were the ones mentioned - scope - USA M8-18.

Are there any USA examples of any current juniors on these teams that have been sanctioned for using banned substances?
Are there any current USA juniors ever sanctioned for using banned substances?
Are there any USA cyclists that were ever found to use then banned substances at the time they were juniors?

I know of none for any of those questions.

I believe - some junior racers have taken banned substances. And as I posted I think the social drugs, not the banned PED ones. But I also believe they take much less than their peers not in cycling.

There is no drug/substance problem in Junior cycling in the USA or teams mentioned.

 

[Ferminal]

jamie burrow WR for Plataeu de Beille still stands i think. he beat PAntanis record, and beat Thor in the tt in the u23 Ronde l'Izard during which he set the climbing record. And Thor won the u23 World tt that year! thats some crazy soignuers with hypodermics at that italian amateur team. amateur team. pro doping.

genevieve jeanson started at 16. so did oscar sevilla. Many swimmers, especially females, are starting this young, if they demonstrate the talent ofcourse. armstrong in triathlon, about 16 +/- a year.

These young amateur/development teams have an obligation to deliver riders to pro contracts.

 

[peterst6906]

Many swimmers, especially females, are starting this young, if they demonstrate the talent ofcourse....

No they all aren't. That's a baseless accusation and complete rubbish.

 

[blackcat]

No they all aren't. That's a baseless accusation and complete rubbish.

BS. See the Swiss coach, or German, who coaches the champion sprinters. and the other ones from Brisbane. will all be on some IGF or growth factor

 

[blackcat]

stephan widmar

 

[Michele]

I can't talk for other Countries, but in Italy doping at junior level is well known to be a fact; of course not all the guys do it but a big part.
What pìss me off is that VERY often the ones pushing the kids to take drugs are their own parents.

If you're doubtfull at why junior guys should be doping, just lemme mention that already at junior level things are quite high (Im talking of pre-U23 category) and the big guys get contracts for around 1.000euro a month which is almost on par as the average paycheck for the average italian worker.

 

[peterst6906]

BS. See the Swiss coach, or German, who coaches the champion sprinters. and the other ones from Brisbane. will all be on some IGF or growth factor

Rubbish from someone who knows nothing but wants to throw accusations at young teenage girls.

My daughter is ranked #2 in Australia in a major discipline and is in the age group you are accusing. She hasn't taken so much as a vitamin pill in her entire life. She only takes any form of medication when she's sick.

There is no way she is involved in doping and as she is ranked where she is (already competing against Olympians) doping is not the, all in rubbish you are accusing our junior girls of.

You are full of rubbish and you should withdraw your earlier statement and acknowledge that you have no real knowledge of swimming in Australia.

 

[BigBoat]

I can't talk for other Countries, but in Italy doping at junior level is well known to be a fact; of course not all the guys do it but a big part.
What pìss me off is that VERY often the ones pushing the kids to take drugs are their own parents.

If you're doubtfull at why junior guys should be doping, just lemme mention that already at junior level things are quite high (Im talking of pre-U23 category) and the big guys get contracts for around 1.000euro a month which is almost on par as the average paycheck for the average italian worker.

This is sad, especially since some of these (or many) will end up quitting cycling all together. This is one of the reasons why I dont like doping.

Another is the reputation these occurrences give all really good young riders (including many very good riders who are clean!.)

 

[therhodeo]

So according to Zoro:

-Only bulky people like sprinters can benefit from steroids.
-Some junior racers take drugs but only the recreational kind and not at the rate their non athlete friends do.
-He knows a kid who's scared of coffee so he must be clean.
-He knows of no juniors who's ever failed a drug test.

Your naivete in regards to teens, ignorance in regards to doping, and lack of understanding as to what makes real evidence makes for a pretty enormous blind spot.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

So according to Zoro:

-Only bulky people like sprinters can benefit from steroids..

Did I say that? I think I said the bulk would not help a developing Jr. except maybe in crits. I scoped it to 18 and under. You know, the kinds fighting acne due to their own testosterone production system. Certainly the best performing juniors, those on the teams pointed to (MRI, Specialized, Slipstream), are not bulky. They are also not the biggest crit winners either.

-Some junior racers take drugs but only the recreational kind and not at the rate their non athlete friends do.

You think Junior bike racers have the same drug rate use as HS kids? As pointed out many are not going to regular HS.

-He knows of no juniors who's ever failed a drug test.

Do you know of a USA cycling Junior that has failed a drug test?

Your naivete in regards to teens, ignorance in regards to doping, and lack of understanding as to what makes real evidence makes for a pretty enormous blind spot.

Who in the USA? Since I know of none and you imply you do - who?

I have to admit I've only been around Jr. cyclists since about 2007. And kid athletes since 2001. What is the "real evidence" for USA juniors taking drugs.

Your "real evidence" statement with really no evidence leads to when / if a kid produces your kind of "real evidence", it being attributed to doping, as opposed to just being better. That isn't far and sounds like jealous bad sportsmanship.

 

[TrackCynic]

Zoro, I think the problem with USA junior cycling and the teams mentioned is not specifically that people here think they are definitely doping from age 14 onwards (although some in the Clinic seem to think everyone who competes dope). There is undoubtedly some fantastic young talent in those teams. The huge worry is that the TEAMS, managers, coaches and moneymen are the same people who successfully doped a whole generation including Levi, Hincapie, Casey, Lance, Tyler - the list goes on and on...

Why should these people be entrusted with our kids??? Why should they be beyond VERY heavy suspicion? They have such a bad reputation and dirty history that it should be up to them to prove innocence in this case, not for us to prove them guilty (many of them already are guilty from previous work with the doping riders forementioned).

It's taken as read that these development teams are preparing these kids (mentally, not necessarily with syringes like the USA olympic team) for what comes next in the espoirs and pros and it ain't pretty. Mentoring by people who have been part of the problem is NOT the way forward to rid cycling of doping. Taking and promoting supplements (which is where this thread started) is not a great place to start juniors' thought processes around what they put in their bodies. Having elite junior "teams" with no grass roots foundation other than as a feed for Weisel's USAC organization is also very unhealthy. These kids (and I'm talking 12-18 ages) should be with LOCAL teams where they can be mentored by local riders and coaches who have a real world grounding, not masters from the dope-ridden world of pro-cycling.

BTW, no USAC junior I know of has been caught doping. But I've also never seen doping controls in 99% of USA junior races I've been to. Same goes for age-checking.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

...kids (and I'm talking 12-18 ages) should be with LOCAL teams where they can be mentored by local riders and coaches who have a real world grounding, not masters from the dope-ridden world of pro-cycling.

BTW, no USAC junior I know of has been caught doping. But I've also never seen doping controls in 99% of USA junior races I've been to. Same goes for age-checking.

You are addressing two issues:

-Doping and those with a cheating legacy. I understand that and thank you. I have a view it is better to be gracious toward those we really know nothing about what they are taking. As to legacy - sure - DQ them from being involved with youth. The sponsor that is a supplements company, I know of no such history that those who ran it were cheaters or that riders have to take their stuff - as was implied here. Source - Facebook friends. Like any at any GNC there is stuff you can take legally and race and stuff you can't. And as you mentioned, I've seen more age based cheating and some gear cheating.

-Trade teams in Junior racing. USA Cycling defines a Junior as one 18 and below. I agree with you 100%. The better solution I think is get more development teams to compete against each other. Easier said than done and harder with the view being on a team everyone is somehow corrupt.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Do you know of a USA cycling Junior that has failed a drug test?

I'm being very charitable and letting you know the "Never tested positive" defense does not work. At all.

Who in the USA? Since I know of none and you imply you do - who?

Let's ask Heroin users about their drug use while we're at it. Because, no one will judge.

What is the "real evidence" for USA juniors taking drugs.

This is ignoring any/every argument and demanding some kind of proof that only you agree qualifies. Why don't you just state what would be sufficient evidence of Juniors doping. Fair warning, that will be torn to bits shortly thereafter.

BTW, that's not making any kind of summary statement about what American Juniors are/aren't doing.

As another post rightly states, the core problem in the U.S. is the federation enables doping. You just have to win. What little money flows into development comes from former dopers. Everywhere you look, dopers.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

I'm being very charitable and letting you know the "Never tested positive" defense does not work. At all.
...

I didn't really get any answer from that. I think the USA kids are not doping and you think they are.

How bout this:
Take the top 20 National RR riders and what % do you think are/were doping?
M10-12
M13-14
M15-16
M17-18

How / why do you think so?

BTW - do you have a kid that races?

 

[therhodeo]

I didn't really get any answer from that. I think the USA kids are not doping and you think they are.

?

I think the big premise here is not that they're doping but they're surrounded by benefactors and mentors who were dopers or who encouraged doping and they're being fed supplements that start them down a very slippery slope.

As far as junior cyclist doping I have no proof. I was involved in 2 sports when I was in the 18 and under age group (1 of those very seriously) and there was absolutely guys doing illegal stuff. Some of them were teammates. Sometimes I believe the parents were completely oblivious and sometimes I think they were absolutely involved. Anytime you have a kid involved in a sport with the possibility of a professional career you have the temptation to cut corners. You seem to think that the USA cycling kids are above that and I say that history has shown time and time again that other kids in their sport and others are not immune from that temptation.