Just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal

[Race Radio]

There was no trace of doping product in the materials found. Anti-hypertensive are not doping products and the taking an anti-hypertensive provides on athletic benefit.

I would suggest you read the WADA code and pay attention to the ban methods section. For example Saline is not a doping product, however if used to dilute the blood it is. Hypertension drugs are the same.

 

[eleven]

I would suggest you read the WADA code and pay attention to the ban methods section. For example Saline is not a doping product, however if used to dilute the blood it is. Hypertension drugs are the same.

I'm not sure who you are debating, but your post has no relation to what I said.. I would suggest you read my original post, which remains factual:

"no traces of any doping product have been uncovered on the materials analysed."

No analysis to date has shown any traces of doping product on the materials found. < that's a fact.

I didn't say anything about "items that may be used in banned methods" being found or not found.

 

[Wallace]

There was no trace of doping product in the materials found. Anti-hypertensive are not doping products and the taking an anti-hypertensive provides on athletic benefit.

CN: "Le Monde's sources claim that analysis of the medical waste show the presence of "polypeptides". The Paris laboratory Toxlab is testing for the presence of growth hormone. Also seized from the Astana team were anti-hypertensive drugs."

If true, they did find drugs and are testing for more.

It's my understanding that anti-hypertensive drugs are commonly used as masking agents, to cover epo and other drugs. Still, I understand your point--racing the Tour is a very stressful thing to do, and athletes should be allowed to take drugs to take the edge off. What's next--are they going to ban warm milk and cookies before bed?

 

[eleven]

It would seem improbable but doesn't like 95% of the pro peloton suffer from asthma with exception certificates to prove it vs. 7% of the normal US population? There is a quote from a few years back from Richard Pound about how ridiculous it was that so many pro cyclists had Asthma and other conditions requiring all kind sof meds...

^I didn't know that about TUE's! In that light, perhaps 7 of 9 isn't so absurd.

For world class athletes, professional cyclists sure need an awful lot of medical care

 

[Race Radio]

I'm not sure who you are debating, but your post has no relation to what I said.. I would suggest you read my original post, which remains factual:

"no traces of any doping product have been uncovered on the materials analysed."

No analysis to date has shown any traces of doping product on the materials found. < that's a fact.

I didn't say anything about "items that may be used in banned methods" being found or not found.

Depending on their use Hypertension drugs can be considered doping products. Given that we are talking about an elite group of professional athletes most would agree that the Hypertension drugs were used as a doping product, not because the riders were eating too much bacon.

 

[chrism1]

This is very stupid and a setup

Sorry this is just an opinion not fact.
Why would any team dispose of this stuff like what was described when they know they are being watched like a hawk, will be tested at a moments notice and at least some of the substances described are pretty common and looked for all of the time. Don't you think they would bother trying to hide it a bit more? Doesn't it sound convenient that all other teams have been cleared? How exactly do they know which team it came from if they don't have the DNA evidence? Because they found it in the trash near the team bus? This sounds like a classic French witch hunt to me. Betcha a dollar they try to implicate Armstrong and Contador isn't mentioned! In which case it is found not true they get their asses sued, and all american sponsors drop off etc. While the Tour will always exist I bet they sure enjoy the extra money none the less.

 

[Digger]

Depending on their use Hypertension drugs can be considered doping products. Given that we are talking about an elite group of professional athletes most would agree that the Hypertension drugs were used as a doping product, not because the riders were eating too much bacon.

What are the possible PED uses of Polypetides and Anti-hyptension drugs? Someone above mentioned the latter was used as a masking agent.

 

[eleven]

Depending on their use Hypertension drugs can be considered doping products. Given that we are talking about an elite group of professional athletes most would agree that the Hypertension drugs were used as a doping product, not because the riders were eating too much bacon.

Hypertension drugs are not doping products. They reduce blood pressure by removing blood volume, reducing the impact of the restricting the blood or reducing max heart rate - none of which would promote any form of athleticism.

They can be used to reduce the blood pressure of someone who has been injected with additional blood or to mask other drugs, but that does not make them a doping product - and my post was pretty clear:

no traces of any doping product have been uncovered on the materials analysed.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why such a statement of fact in a thread requesting facts about this case could possibly be challenged. It's a simple fact, a fact communicated from one of the leading sources for this story. It's almost as if you want the thread retitled "just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal that make Astana look guilty, leaving out any evidence that might offer the slightest inkling of notion that I'm wrong about that".

and finally, in any group of nine people (nevermind the oodles of staff etc....) it is not at all uncommon for at least one to have hypertension. It hits approximately 1 in 5 Americans, and not all through bad diets.

None of that to say that Astana is innocent. I just posted facts per the request of the OP.

 

[Digger]

Sorry this is just an opinion not fact.
Why would any team dispose of this stuff like what was described when they know they are being watched like a hawk, will be tested at a moments notice and at least some of the substances described are pretty common and looked for all of the time. Don't you think they would bother trying to hide it a bit more? Doesn't it sound convenient that all other teams have been cleared? How exactly do they know which team it came from if they don't have the DNA evidence? Because they found it in the trash near the team bus? This sounds like a classic French witch hunt to me. Betcha a dollar they try to implicate Armstrong and Contador isn't mentioned! In which case it is found not true they get their asses sued, and all american sponsors drop off etc. While the Tour will always exist I bet they sure enjoy the extra money none the less.

Brilliant.

 

[red_explosions]

Depending on their use Hypertension drugs can be considered doping products. Given that we are talking about an elite group of professional athletes most would agree that the Hypertension drugs were used as a doping product, not because the riders were eating too much bacon.

Spot on. The likelihood of a clean pro cyclist needing anti-hypertensive medication is close to zero, let alone a whole team. Anti-hypertensives are classically used in combination with blood boosting techniques, along with anti-coagulation therapy. Will be interesting to see what other products come to light, if any.

 

[Digger]

Spot on. The likelihood of a clean pro cyclist needing anti-hypertensive medication is close to zero, let alone a whole team. Anti-hypertensives are classically used in combination with blood boosting techniques, along with anti-coagulation therapy. Will be interesting to see what other products come to light, if any.

Thanks - polypeptide usage? Amino acids yes no?

 

[BroDeal]

no traces of any doping product have been uncovered on the materials analysed.

The polypeptides found could come from EPO or HGH or any number of other substances. Testing is still being done.

 

[eleven]

Spot on. The likelihood of a clean pro cyclist needing anti-hypertensive medication is close to zero,

what makes you say that?

 

[Race Radio]

Hypertension drugs are not doping products. They reduce blood pressure by removing blood volume, reducing the impact of the restricting the blood or reducing max heart rate - none of which would promote any form of athleticism.

They can be used to reduce the blood pressure of someone who has been injected with additional blood or to mask other drugs, but that does not make them a doping product - and my post was pretty clear:

no traces of any doping product have been uncovered on the materials analysed.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why such a statement of fact in a thread requesting facts about this case could possibly be challenged. It's a simple fact, a fact communicated from one of the leading sources for this story. It's almost as if you want the thread retitled "just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal that make Astana look guilty, leaving out any evidence that might offer the slightest inkling of notion that I'm wrong about that".

Just because you do not understand does not mean you are correct.

Anti hypertension drugs are used in conjunction with blood vector drugs to control blood pressure. It is a fact that some hypertension drugs, like beta blockers, are banned by WADA. Others are banned by method.

Unless Astana was using these hypertension drugs for an approved method, something that is close to impossible, then a doping product was found.....perhaps the Astana team chiefs need to modify their diet? Should Joann ask them to get a little exercise to control their high blood pressure?

Looks like they are going need to trot out another sick mechanic. Julian better start eating lots of bacon and smoking more

 

[eleven]

The polypeptides found could come from EPO or HGH or any number of other substances. Testing is still being done.

Right, so....when I said:

"as of yet, no traces of any doping product have been uncovered on the materials analysed."

I added a fact to this discussion...no? I'm pretty sure the OP requested that we put all of the known facts in this thread. Sometimes I wonder if people here argue with their bathroom mirror every morning.

 

[eleven]

Just because you do not understand does not mean you are correct.

I understand just fine, thanks. If you disagree with my statement of fact, you should take it up with the french investigator who made the statement.

Anti hypertension drugs are used in conjunction with blood vector drugs to control blood pressure. It is a fact that some hypertension drugs, like beta blockers, are banned by WADA. Others are banned by method.

Ah, beta blockers! That would be a GREAT doping product! Hey, Kid - here's a drug that will prevent your heart rate from ever getting above 130 no matter how hard you try, knock yourself out!

They may be banned, but they are not in-and-of themselves a doping substance. My quote in my first post was quite clear.

Unless Astana was using these hypertension drugs for an approved method, something that is close to impossible

Why is that "close to impossible"?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I understand just fine, thanks. If you disagree with my statement of fact, you should take it up with the french investigator who made the statement.



Ah, beta blockers! That would be a GREAT doping product! Hey, Kid - here's a drug that will prevent your heart rate from ever getting above 130 no matter how hard you try, knock yourself out!

They may be banned, but they are not in-and-of themselves a doping substance. My quote in my first post was quite clear.



Why is that "close to impossible"?

Ok, guys, we get this disagreement. Can we move on beyond this point now? It's starting to get crowded on the head of that pin.

 

[BroDeal]

Right, so....when I said:

"as of yet, no traces of any doping product have been uncovered on the materials analysed."

I added a fact to this discussion...no?

No it is not a fact. The fact is that traces of what could be doping products have been found. Maybe they are. Maybe they are not. Testing continues.

 

[Polish]

Lance weighs the same as a duck

facts....

1) There is an official Medical Waste Gathering System that all the Teams use.
Also, any waste found elsewhere is collected. Hotel rooms, gas station rest rooms etc.

2) The medical waste has been sorted and seperated by Team.
How they know which garbage goes with which team?
....a LITTLE bit murky but Astana has a neat little stack of garbage,
Saxo Bank has their stack, etc.

3) The Police and AFLD are allowed to pick through this garbage

4) The Police and AFLD have cleared ALL 2009 TdF Teams of any wrongdoing. Clean Tour.

5) Except Astana - the one team that Bumbling Boudry LOVES to HATE.
The one Team that Inspector Boudry always whines about.

6) The LeMonde story is part of an OBVIOUS hater witchhunt.

7) SSDD
.
.
.

 

[eleven]

No it is not a fact. The fact is that traces of what could be doping products have been found. Maybe they are. Maybe they are not. Testing continues.

"“No trace of any doping product has for the time being been uncovered by the analysis of this material,”

- source close to French judicial investigation.

 

[Digger]

facts....

1) There is an official Medical Waste Gathering System that all the Teams use.
Also, any waste found elsewhere is collected. Hotel rooms, gas station rest rooms etc.

2) The medical waste has been sorted and seperated by Team.
How they know which garbage goes with which team?
....a LITTLE bit murky but Astana has a neat little stack of garbage,
Saxo Bank has their stack, etc.

3) The Police and AFLD are allowed to pick through this garbage

4) The Police and AFLD have cleared ALL 2009 TdF Teams of any wrongdoing. Clean Tour.

5) Except Astana - the one team that Bumbling Boudry LOVES to HATE.
The one Team that Inspector Boudry always whines about.

6) The LeMonde story is part of an OBVIOUS hater witchhunt.

7) SSDD
.
.
.

What will you say when the DNA comes out?

 

[Race Radio]

I understand just fine, thanks. If you disagree with my statement of fact, you should take it up with the french investigator who made the statement.



Ah, beta blockers! That would be a GREAT doping product! Hey, Kid - here's a drug that will prevent your heart rate from ever getting above 130 no matter how hard you try, knock yourself out!

They may be banned, but they are not in-and-of themselves a doping substance. My quote in my first post was quite clear.



Why is that "close to impossible"?

It was not a "French investigator" It was a French journalist. He wrote that the drugs are not banned "Per se" which is "by themselves/itself". Used as part of transfusion program they are a banned product.

You may question if something works or not, but it is a fact that WADA sees some hypertension drugs as doping products and has banned them. They have also limited the methods in which they can be used as if misused they are a doping product.

 

[Race Radio]

What will you say when the DNA comes out?

That it was planted by Nazi Frogmen?

 

[BroDeal]

"“No trace of any doping product has for the time being been uncovered by the analysis of this material,”

- source close to French judicial investigation.

"Le Monde's sources claim that analysis of the medical waste show the presence of "polypeptides". The Paris laboratory Toxlab is testing for the presence of growth hormone."

 

[tubularglue]

Astana was caught with questionable products
The French have tested the products since July
Legal Action has started
No statements from Astana/Radio Shack
The public knows very little of the details
The testing/suspension process is long and arduous
We have very little information on denial/admitted use
Cyclingnews forumites(made up word) are chomping at the bit
omission/commission