Just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal

[eleven]

It was not a "French investigator" It was a French journalist. He wrote that the drugs are not banned "Per se" which is "by themselves/itself". Used as part of transfusion program they are a banned product.

It was a "source close to the investigation" that is the source of most of this story.

You may question if something works or not, but it is a fact that WADA sees some hypertension drugs as doping products and has banned them.

Oh, I'm not questioning whether or not Beta Blockers work as a performance enhancer. They don't. period. They serve to slow the both the average and max heart rate - a small dose can cap one's max heart rate at 20% below it's norm. There's no way in which that could be considered performance enhancing.

Now, whether they serve to mask a performance enhancing drug or reduce a negative side effect of such a drug, that's another question.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Nothing to add other than this, "fact only" thread has been derailed by the smoke and mirrors troll brigade, yet again.

 

[JayZee]

No it is not a fact. The fact is that traces of what could be doping products have been found. Maybe they are. Maybe they are not. Testing continues.

This is ridiculous. Here is the quote from the Velonews article, quoting the "Source" - “No trace of any doping product has for the time being been uncovered by the analysis of this material” Call me crazy but that sounds like a fact. Of course facts can change, but as of now it is a fact.

 

[BroDeal]

This is ridiculous. Here is the quote from the Velonews article, quoting the "Source" - “No trace of any doping product has for the time being been uncovered by the analysis of this material” Call me crazy but that sounds like a fact. Of course facts can change, but as of now it is a fact.

And here is the quote from cyclingnews:

"Le Monde's sources claim that analysis of the medical waste show the presence of "polypeptides". The Paris laboratory Toxlab is testing for the presence of growth hormone."

The polypeptides could be traces of prohibited doping products. I am waiting for eleven to begin arguing what the definition of is is.

 

[Race Radio]

Facts

WADA says that some hypertension drugs are banned and all are banned if used for an unapproved method.

Hypertension drugs are often used in conjunction with blood doping

Hypertension drugs were found in Astana's garbage

 

[Polish]

What will you say when the DNA comes out?

If the Police and AFLD are given the OK to use Lance DNA,
they will compare that DNA to EVERY piece of garbage, needle,
minor, dress stain etc until they find something anything.

Also, the police said there is "inconclusive evidence" in regards
to the ALL the other Team's trash. Really?
And the Astana's garbage IS conclusive?

It would have looked like less a haterwitchhunt if they at least
investigated a couple other teams lol.

BTW, AFLD already has Lance DNA from the haircut earlier this year.
They took handfuls of DNA. Crappy haterhaircut

 

[red_explosions]

what makes you say that?

Because, by the very nature of what they do, pro cyclists have excellent cardiovascular function. There are two causes of hypertension: blood volume is too high; vascular resistance is too high. Poor arterial/venous function is probably more unlikely in pro cyclists than in any other group of individuals. That leaves excessive blood volume as the cause. Again, extremely unlikely unless artificial enhancement of blood volume is performed.

We need to know the quantities of anti-hypertensives and who they were prescribed for. If it's one individual, that's possible (if still suspect). If it's team wide, that in my eyes is definite organised blood manipulation.

 

[BroDeal]

eleven = hombre ???

How goes it, Gary?

 

[Race Radio]

eleven = hombre ???

How goes it, Gary?

Gary is a little busy right now, he has a surgery....er, back adjustment, to get to.

 

[BroDeal]

Gary is a little busy right now, he has a surgery....er, back adjustment, to get to.

The duck says, "Quack!"

 

[Anonymous]

The duck says, "Quack!"

While there are some chiropractors that do give the profession a bad name, it is ignorant to suggest the entire profession is thus. I'll let you talk to any of my wife's patients, ANY of them. And no, she doesn't practice as though she can cure disease or fix every part of your body by manipulating you spine. However, she has cured several bouts of what MD's call (and prescribe medicine for) Restless Leg Syndrome. Funny, nothing worked, nothing worked, medicine didn't work, went to my wife, no more problem. But MD's would never practice "quackery" like completely fabricating a "syndrome" so that Big Parma could come along an make some money on drugs.

 

[fatandfast]

Astana may find itself involved with a very large violation of sport and criminal laws. Many states in the US have laws written like the French statutes. An example is DWI laws. If you get pulled over for a broken tail light and your blood alcohol is above the limit you get arrested, even if you your driving was not affected by the booze.You can't operate a car with X amount of liquor in your system. You can have well under the limit but your driving is affected you are arrested even though you are below the legal limit. Astana is not allowed to have and operate the drip equipment, Any doctor that will state that half a dozen members of the team needed" emergency" drips will certainly get his medical license looked at with a microscope and likely be the subject of some punishment. Is any Dr going to take one for the team?

 

[Wallace]

There are times when the off-season is almost as much fun to watch as the racing season.

 

[eleven]

And here is the quote from cyclingnews:

"Le Monde's sources claim that analysis of the medical waste show the presence of "polypeptides". The Paris laboratory Toxlab is testing for the presence of growth hormone."

The polypeptides could be traces of prohibited doping products. I am waiting for eleven to begin arguing what the definition of is is.

Polypeptides? In BLOOD!? That would be really shocking. I mean, really - did wada ban protein?

 

[eleven]

Facts

WADA says that some hypertension drugs are banned and all are banned if used for an unapproved method.

Hypertension drugs are often used in conjunction with blood doping

Hypertension drugs were found in Astana's garbage

Indeed, those are all facts.

 

[eleven]

Because, by the very nature of what they do, pro cyclists have excellent cardiovascular function. There are two causes of hypertension: blood volume is too high; vascular resistance is too high. Poor arterial/venous function is probably more unlikely in pro cyclists than in any other group of individuals. That leaves excessive blood volume as the cause. Again, extremely unlikely unless artificial enhancement of blood volume is performed.

We need to know the quantities of anti-hypertensives and who they were prescribed for. If it's one individual, that's possible (if still suspect). If it's team wide, that in my eyes is definite organised blood manipulation.

I ride about 5000 miles per year. Run about 60 miles per month. Have a resting heart rate of about 50. Eat no meat products, very little fat and almost no salt. Have very little stress in my life.

And my unmedicated BP is about 160 / 100.

I am not some far outlier in this - It is quite common for otherwise-healthy people to have genetic hypertension.

 

[eleven]

Astana is not allowed to have and operate the drip equipment, Any doctor that will state that half a dozen members of the team needed" emergency" drips will certainly get his medical license looked at with a microscope and likely be the subject of some punishment. Is any Dr going to take one for the team?

I would be shocked if a Doctor is willing to claim that 7 of 9 people on the team had a medical necessity for a drip. On the other hand, we don't what items 7 strands of DNA were found in.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I thought I'd read that the DNA strands were found in syringes?
To be honest, I've read so much.......

 

[eleven]

I thought I'd read that the DNA strands were found in syringes?
To be honest, I've read so much.......

If they found seven different DNA strands in different syringes, that would be...ummm...Problematic. for the boys formerly wearing teal. (and the couple still wearing it)

I wonder how big the escape hatch is in the Radio Shack sponsorship.

 

[Rex Hunter]

I knew this thread would go like this. What a stupid OP.

 

[Rex Hunter]

I wonder how they can link these hypertension drugs to Astana. If I was using these produdcts, I would get someone to dump them in someone else's waste bin so it couldn't be linked. So maybe that's what happened.

 

[Rex Hunter]

While there are some chiropractors that do give the profession a bad name, it is ignorant to suggest the entire profession is thus. I'll let you talk to any of my wife's patients, ANY of them. And no, she doesn't practice as though she can cure disease or fix every part of your body by manipulating you spine. However, she has cured several bouts of what MD's call (and prescribe medicine for) Restless Leg Syndrome. Funny, nothing worked, nothing worked, medicine didn't work, went to my wife, no more problem. But MD's would never practice "quackery" like completely fabricating a "syndrome" so that Big Parma could come along an make some money on drugs.

Pramipex sorts out restless leg syndrom.

Body builders also use it to lower prolactin levels to stop their tits producing milk. Strange but true.

 

[Rex Hunter]

Eleven makes a very good point about beta blockers reducing cardio. Propranolol is a beta blocker and it's terrible for athletic activity. If someone was experimenting with it because they thought lowering their blood pressure would produce results I think they would have got a shock. Maybe this is why Levi disappeared after that strange accident?

 

[red_explosions]

I ride about 5000 miles per year. Run about 60 miles per month. Have a resting heart rate of about 50. Eat no meat products, very little fat and almost no salt. Have very little stress in my life.

And my unmedicated BP is about 160 / 100.

I am not some far outlier in this - It is quite common for otherwise-healthy people to have genetic hypertension.

The stats you put forward may be true. However you are the exception not the norm. It's far from common for someone to be as fit as that and have such high BP. I cannot think of anyone I have come across in my time with a BP of 160/100 who does not have some kind of acute/chronically debilitating condition. Put it this way, no-one I've met at 160/100 would be contemplating joining the pro peloton anytime soon lol

 

[eleven]

The stats you put forward may be true. However you are the exception not the norm. It's far from common for someone to be as fit as that and have such high BP. I cannot think of anyone I have come across in my time with a BP of 160/100 who does not have some kind of acute/chronically debilitating condition. Put it this way, no-one I've met at 160/100 would be contemplating joining the pro peloton anytime soon lol

Then perhaps your sample is too small. It's a fairly common genetic syndrome. While a large portion of hypertension cases can be traced to poor diet, exercise and/or environmental conditions, many cases can not and are simply inherited.

on the other hand, it would not be at-all surprising to learn that some cyclists have high blood pressure because of non-genetic factors: Stress and high-sodium diets, for example, are important factors.