Just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal

[red_explosions]

Then perhaps your sample is too small. It's a fairly common genetic syndrome. While a large portion of hypertension cases can be traced to poor diet, exercise and/or environmental conditions, many cases can not and are simply inherited.

on the other hand, it would not be at-all surprising to learn that some cyclists have high blood pressure because of non-genetic factors: Stress and high-sodium diets, for example, are important factors.

Well any pro cyclist that is taking enough salt that it is causing hypertension needs a serious look at their diet lol.

The major risk factors for hypertension (inactivity, obesity, chronically poor diets etc.) are absent from the peloton. Therefore it makes no sense at all that there could ever be more than rare cases of naturally occurring hypertension among pro cyclists. Whilst I accept there may be isolated cases of cyclists needing anti-hypertensives for genuine medical purposes, if their use is common or team wide, which is still to be revealed in this case, then what else could it indicate other than artificial manipulation? There is no natural physiological basis for chronic hypertension to be widespread in the peloton.

 

[eleven]

Well any pro cyclist that is taking enough salt that it is causing hypertension needs a serious look at their diet lol.

Sodium-sensitive people don't have to intake much sodium for it to raise their blood pressure.

The major risk factors for hypertension (inactivity, obesity, chronically poor diets etc.) are absent from the peloton

The biggest risk factor is family history. Stress and sodium are also major factors. If you make a list and leave those out, of course it's easy to say "these are absent from the peloton.

The rest of your post is a very important point. If they found a couple bottles of calcium channel blockers, it could quite easily be a person or two on the team.

if they found buckets of ACE inhibitors, it's a far different problem.

 

[red_explosions]

Sodium-sensitive people don't have to intake much sodium for it to raise their blood pressure.


The biggest risk factor is family history. Stress and sodium are also major factors. If you make a list and leave those out, of course it's easy to say "these are absent from the peloton.

The rest of your post is a very important point. If they found a couple bottles of calcium channel blockers, it could quite easily be a person or two on the team.

if they found buckets of ACE inhibitors, it's a far different problem.

It's easy to say because it's true. Chronically poor diet includes excessive sodium intake. You'd have to be damn unlucky to be that sensitive to sodium that you couldn't avoid hypertension by lowering your intake. Genetics are certainly a big factor, but a pro cyclist with a family history of high BP is still at less risk than the average Joe with a family history, for the reasons already stated.

I don't say that hypertension is impossible among cyclists, but I can't think of a group of people who would be less likely to experience it compared to an average sample of the population. The bottom line is that, in my book at least, widespread use of anti-hypertensives equals blood doping. Some will always disagree, but for me no doubt.

 

[Race Radio]

While the discussion of the vague possibility that a bunch of 20 something professional athletes are suffering from hypertension is interesting perhaps we try to get back on topic

the hypertension drugs found were telmisartan and quinapri

 

[lwebb12]

While the discussion of the vague possibility that a bunch of 20 something professional athletes are suffering from hypertension is interesting perhaps we try to get back on topic

the hypertension drugs found were telmisartan and quinapri

The feed bags contain astronomical amounts of sodium.

 

[Race Radio]

The feed bags contain astronomical amounts of sodium.

One of the reasons Radio Shack is hiring Alan Lim is to fix their diet. Until recently dinner at the Tour every night was a platter of bacon cheeseburger Krispe Kreme's

 

[red_explosions]

While the discussion of the vague possibility that a bunch of 20 something professional athletes are suffering from hypertension is interesting perhaps we try to get back on topic

the hypertension drugs found were telmisartan and quinapri

Well blocking the production of angiotensin II would seem to be the way to go to reduce BP in doping.

 

[lwebb12]

One of the reasons Radio Shack is hiring Alan Lim is to fix their diet. Until recently dinner at the Tour every night was a platter of bacon cheeseburger Krispe Kreme's

That would be a delcious mid ride snack! No wonder riders are heavier than ever...and I thought it was all the test and HGH.

 

[eleven]

The feed bags contain astronomical amounts of sodium.

Well that's a meaningful contribution.

1. Riders don't always eat out of feedbags and many otherwise healthy foods contain very high levels of sodium.

2. Some people are more sensitive to sodium than others.

 

[lwebb12]

Well that's a meaningful contribution.

1. Riders don't always eat out of feedbags and many otherwise healthy foods contain very high levels of sodium.

2. Some people are more sensitive to sodium than others.

It was a joke fella, lighten up. It is Christmas Eve after all.

 

[stephens]

The time frame for these sorts of "revelations" in the media are just ridiculous.

The only way they should do things and the only thing cycling fans should pay attention to is:
1)Rider identified only by secret number is tested by lab A
2) Results are known immediately and reported to sanctioning body (UCI for example)
3) Results announced to rider
4) Samples (still protected by secret code) are retested by lab B (perhaps of riders choice from approved list)
5) Rider has x days to respond
6) Sanctioning body determines guilt or innocence
7) if rider is found guilty sanctioning agency declares rider guilty and announces punishment and this is the absolute first time anyone other than the rider and the sanctioning agency have known about this.

Anything other than this is ridiculous. The riders should get together and insist on this kind of protocol. No searching of trash, no newspaper allegations, no multitude of different testing bodies testing the same riders all the time... just hard and fast FACTS based on actual contents of riders bodies.

 

[Race Radio]

The time frame for these sorts of "revelations" in the media are just ridiculous.

The only way they should do things and the only thing cycling fans should pay attention to is:
1)Rider identified only by secret number is tested by lab A
2) Results are known immediately and reported to sanctioning body (UCI for example)
3) Results announced to rider
4) Samples (still protected by secret code) are retested by lab B (perhaps of riders choice from approved list)
5) Rider has x days to respond
6) Sanctioning body determines guilt or innocence
7) if rider is found guilty sanctioning agency declares rider guilty and announces punishment and this is the absolute first time anyone other than the rider and the sanctioning agency have known about this.

Anything other than this is ridiculous. The riders should get together and insist on this kind of protocol. No searching of trash, no newspaper allegations, no multitude of different testing bodies testing the same riders all the time... just hard and fast FACTS based on actual contents of riders bodies.

Good luck with that.

This is now a criminal investigation and will be treated as such.

 

[stephens]

No it will not be treated as such. It'll be a "trial" by newspaper/newswebsite, allegations, innuendo, leaked "facts", and so on.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

No it will not be treated as such. It'll be a "trial" by newspaper/newswebsite, allegations, innuendo, leaked "facts", and so on.

WTF are you talking about? This has nothing to do with tests. This has to do with medical equipment being found.

And anyone who has followed cycling even remotely realizes that the dopers are well ahead of the testers and passing a test is by no means an indicator of clean cycling. Good grief.

 

[stephens]

Is it really satisfying to you to ban riders merely on circumstantial evidence (contact with certain doctors, certain medical equipment being around, rumours, etc.) and not on actual evidence tied to the athlete's body (test results)? Most sports fans have not been and would not be satisfied with that sort of thing.

If the riders are ahead of the governing bodies and national governments, even with their obvious advantage of manpower and financial resources, then the governing bodies and governments must be complete idiots. (or are simply choosing to play another game).

 

[BroDeal]

Is it really satisfying to you to ban riders merely on circumstantial evidence (contact with certain doctors, certain medical equipment being around, rumours, etc.) and not on actual evidence tied to the athlete's body (test results)? Most sports fans have not been and would not be satisfied with that sort of thing.

Look up the definition of circumstantial evidence sometime. I suggest you do it before you next use it in a sentence.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Is it really satisfying to you to ban riders merely on circumstantial evidence (contact with certain doctors, certain medical equipment being around, rumours, etc.) and not on actual evidence tied to the athlete's body (test results)? Most sports fans have not been and would not be satisfied with that sort of thing.

If the riders are ahead of the governing bodies and national governments, even with their obvious advantage of manpower and financial resources, then the governing bodies and governments must be complete idiots. (or are simply choosing to play another game).

Do you realize that Ullrich, Basso, Virenque, and the like have never tested positive? Why do you think that is? The tests are far behind the dopers, and in most cases, tests do not exist for detecting certain doping techniques.

Most cycling fans understand this. The rest willfully ignore the evidence since they're fans of certain riders, not fans of the sport as a whole.

 

[Race Radio]

Is it really satisfying to you to ban riders merely on circumstantial evidence (contact with certain doctors, certain medical equipment being around, rumours, etc.) and not on actual evidence tied to the athlete's body (test results)? Most sports fans have not been and would not be satisfied with that sort of thing.

If the riders are ahead of the governing bodies and national governments, even with their obvious advantage of manpower and financial resources, then the governing bodies and governments must be complete idiots. (or are simply choosing to play another game).

Circumstantial evidence? You mean like positive tests and DNA?

I must be missing something, were are all these innocent athletes who have been convicted by circumstantial evidence?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Is it really satisfying to you to ban riders merely on circumstantial evidence (contact with certain doctors, certain medical equipment being around, rumours, etc.) and not on actual evidence tied to the athlete's body (test results)?

In criminal trials in the US, juries are told that circumstantial evidence is equal to direct evidence as a means of proof. However, with circumstantial evidence, the jury must find a defendant not guilty if the circumstances can lead to two or more rational conclusions.

From what I have read about the stated facts thus far;

- hypertension medication was found - it is not noted that it was found with the infusion equipment,

- seven DNA profiles have been located - not sure on what items the DNA profiles were found but it seems logical it would be in the needles (that is where I would look)

If each of the seven DNA profiles are linked to evidence that ALSO contains hypertension medication that it going to be a problem for the guys who match those profiles.

 

[stephens]

Ok, maybe "circumstantial evidence," isn't the right term, since I don't mean in a legal sense. I just mean it'd be so much better if we just tested riders, they popped, they're out. If the tests aren't good enough, then the authorities should spend their efforts developing those instead of trying to eradicate doping by all these other non-scientific means.

Now, in this case, if they have DNA, and its chain of custody can be validated (difficult with stuff out of the trash and been who knows where for the last six months), then we're getting some actual scientific results here that would be more satisfying. Not quite as satisfying as real-time, day-after-the-stage type results, but better than "hey, so and so said that a bunch of years ago such and such happened," or "damn, that guy looks too fast so he must be on something," or "hey, we have this blood that's been sitting around for a decade and you will just have to trust us that it shows what we say it shows..." That kind of stuff is never going to be very rock solid.

 

[tubularglue]

snipped Velonews:

this is not laudable -

"Specific identification of those profiles can only be made if and when the UCI hands over riders’ blood profiles to French investigators."

 

[Nalgas Hombre]

This stuff is not Lance's, Why would he chance it? Don't be silly!

 

[Nalgas Hombre]

Do you realize that Ullrich, Basso, Virenque, and the like have never tested positive? Why do you think that is? The tests are far behind the dopers, and in most cases, tests do not exist for detecting certain doping techniques.

Most cycling fans understand this. The rest willfully ignore the evidence since they're fans of certain riders, not fans of the sport as a whole.

The testing caught up quite some time ago.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Nalgas Hombre]

It's easy to say because it's true. Chronically poor diet includes excessive sodium intake. You'd have to be damn unlucky to be that sensitive to sodium that you couldn't avoid hypertension by lowering your intake. Genetics are certainly a big factor, but a pro cyclist with a family history of high BP is still at less risk than the average Joe with a family history, for the reasons already stated.

I don't say that hypertension is impossible among cyclists, but I can't think of a group of people who would be less likely to experience it compared to an average sample of the population. The bottom line is that, in my book at least, widespread use of anti-hypertensives equals blood doping. Some will always disagree, but for me no doubt.

Give eleven a break, he makes valid points.

 

[cyclegeek]

New to the thread so this might have been answered, but why does this info arrive 6 months after the tour? Where have these IV bags been all this time and who found them in the Astana trash for medical waste? and why if they were illegal would Astana have deposited them there?