Just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal

[Nalgas Hombre]

New to the thread so this might have been answered, but why does this info arrive 6 months after the tour? Where have these IV bags been all this time and who found them in the Astana trash for medical waste? and why if they were illegal would Astana have deposited them there?

Because this is all a big scam frin the haters,

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Because this is all a big scam frin the haters,

 

[BroDeal]

Because this is all a big scam frin the haters,

Wow! What a sad, pathetic little man you must be to be spending your Christmas eve trolling a web forum.

 

[cyclegeek]

New to the thread so this might have been answered, but why does this info arrive 6 months after the tour? Where have these IV bags been all this time and who found them in the Astana trash for medical waste? and why if they were illegal would Astana have deposited them there? Sorry to re-post but can't seem to get a level answer. Anybody got the answers without the commentary? Thanks, Peace.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

New to the thread so this might have been answered, but why does this info arrive 6 months after the tour? Where have these IV bags been all this time and who found them in the Astana trash for medical waste? and why if they were illegal would Astana have deposited them there? Sorry to re-post but can't seem to get a level answer. Anybody got the answers without the commentary? Thanks, Peace.

Actually, an investigation was started months ago, so the current article is just following up on what the investigation has yielded so far. The IV bags have been by the French investigators, but apparently, they are now releasing some limited info on the results.

I'm not surprised something like this gets kept under wraps. It has the potential to affect some major money and publicity producers for the cycling world, so I can't imagine any investigator wants to say much until some definite results are available.

Why Astana would leave these there...I have no idea. Seems very out of character. Perhaps a mistake in getting rid of the materials.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

This thread has become pointless, tiresome and completely off track from what the original poster intended. Actually, that happened several pages ago.

Is there any reason to even keep this thread going if people can't do what was originally requested and post ONLY facts? If not, the thread should be closed, or simply merged with the other thread.

 

[poupou]

Facts and only facts

I just reread Le monde article, and want to precise that:

- needles from different sizes were found in Astana rooms AND in Astana garbages.
- according Le monde phrasing , polypeptides were found in Astana material.

- hypertenseurs were found in Astana hôtel

- and the 7 DNA profiles were established with seized Astana materials

- French Gendarmes confirm that Astana had benefited of favours (time) for the testing, enough time to dilute blood for exemple.

----
For memory:
On Jul 27th, some informations had been given by Bordry about the seizures
http://www.liberation.fr/sports/0101582120-le-tour-2009-vraiment-propre

 

[Digger]

Facts and only facts

I just reread Le monde article, and want to precise that:

- needles from different sizes were found in Astana rooms AND in Astana garbages.
- according Le monde phrasing , polypeptides were found in Astana material.

- hypertenseurs were found in Astana hôtel

- and the 7 DNA profiles were established with seized Astana materials

- French Gendarmes confirm that Astana had benefited of favours (time) for the testing, enough time to dilute blood for exemple.

----
For memory:
On Jul 27th, some informations had been given by Bordry about the seizures
http://www.liberation.fr/sports/0101582120-le-tour-2009-vraiment-propre

great stuff thanks

 

[python]

Facts and only facts

I just reread Le monde article, and want to precise that:

- needles from different sizes were found in Astana rooms AND in Astana garbages.
- according Le monde phrasing , polypeptides were found in Astana material.

- hypertenseurs were found in Astana hôtel

- and the 7 DNA profiles were established with seized Astana materials

- French Gendarmes confirm that Astana had benefited of favours (time) for the testing, enough time to dilute blood for exemple.

----
For memory:
On Jul 27th, some informations had been given by Bordry about the seizures
http://www.liberation.fr/sports/0101582120-le-tour-2009-vraiment-propre

the red is the most intriguing.

it implies some means of monitoring timing and sequencing events outside of the garbage disposal sites.

are they pointing to surveillance cameras in the team rooms? How else can the police conclude that a particular rider benefited by diluting his blood before a test?

if any hard photographic evidence is present (like in op puerto) this case is either going to end in prison for someone very famous or get shut down by the politicians.

 

[poupou]

the red is the most intriguing.

it implies some means of monitoring timing and sequencing events outside of the garbage disposal sites.

are they pointing to surveillance cameras in the team rooms? How else can the police conclude that a particular rider benefited by diluting his blood before a test?

if any hard photographic evidence is present (like in op puerto) this case is either going to end in prison for someone very famous or get shut down by the politicians.

The original quote:

Dans le rapport qu'ils ont remis au parquet de Paris et dont Le Monde a eu connaissance, les enquêteurs de l'Oclaesp – qui ont suivi de près l'équipe Astana pendant le Tour 2009 – confirment que la formation de Lance Armstrong et d'Alberto Contador a bénéficié de délais importants avant de se soumettre à des contrôles censés être inopinés. "Des délais suffisants pour permettre de se diluer le sang, par exemple", note une source proche de l'enquête.

It's been said that gendarmes who followed closely Astana team, confirm that they benefitted of big time delay, that could have be used to dilute blood.

It's a terrible damage for UCI and McQuaid, their recent statements look more foolish

 

[python]

The original quote:

It's been said that gendarmes who followed closely Astana team, confirm that they benefitted of big time delay, that could have be used to dilute blood.

It's a terrible damage for UCI and McQuaid, their recent statements look more foolish

again for a criminal investigation to conclusively confirm something related to a time delay implies that the time of dilution (as in your original text referring to 'blood dilution') and the time of the blood test are known. the difference is 'the delay' provided the time vampires showed up is known which is easy.

simply following the team around can not confirm the dilution.

 

[workingclasshero]

the red is the most intriguing.

it implies some means of monitoring timing and sequencing events outside of the garbage disposal sites.

are they pointing to surveillance cameras in the team rooms? How else can the police conclude that a particular rider benefited by diluting his blood before a test?

if any hard photographic evidence is present (like in op puerto) this case is either going to end in prison for someone very famous or get shut down by the politicians.

it says they had the time to do this. not that the gendarmes know they diluted their blood.

i'm not sure how one can get this wrong?

 

[Race Radio]

New to the thread so this might have been answered, but why does this info arrive 6 months after the tour? Where have these IV bags been all this time and who found them in the Astana trash for medical waste? and why if they were illegal would Astana have deposited them there? Sorry to re-post but can't seem to get a level answer. Anybody got the answers without the commentary? Thanks, Peace.

It actually has been reported on for the last few months.

The day after the Tour was over it was reported that all of the teams medical waste, both official and unofficial disposed, was being searched.

In October it was reported that Astana received preferential treatment and that Transfusion equipment was found. It was also reported that an judicial inquiry would be started. This is the result is what is now being reported.

The big news today is not that needles were found but that the French have started a criminal case on it.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This thread has become pointless, tiresome and completely off track from what the original poster intended. Actually, that happened several pages ago.

Is there any reason to even keep this thread going if people can't do what was originally requested and post ONLY facts? If not, the thread should be closed, or simply merged with the other thread.

Sorry, I think part of that is my fault. Back on topic.

 

[Ripper]

Even more thread material about the latest Astana issue, and even though there was a request for only facts, still infested by trolls

 

[Rex Hunter]

Even more thread material about the latest Astana issue, and even though there was a request for only facts, still infested by trolls

By trolls you mean people who mentioned all the facts, of course.

 

[Race Radio]

-----------

Facts are like kryptonite to Arbiter/Banprocycling/Spoket1/Rex Hunter. Lots of outrageous claims, nothing to back them up. Sounds like this guy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ong-fan-faked-cancer-to-marry-girlfriend.html

Few non trolls would believe that Armstrong's sudden late career development was due to the "Development of his frontal lobe"

 

[BroDeal]

By trolls you mean people who mentioned all the facts, of course.

I.E., posters unlike you.

 

[Rex Hunter]

Facts are like kryptonite to Arbiter/Banprocycling/Spoket1/Rex Hunter. Lots of outrageous claims, nothing to back them up. Sounds like this guy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ong-fan-faked-cancer-to-marry-girlfriend.html

Um, I think that story is funny and all, but you're not helping your mod pals by continually posting it up. It's much harder to find a pre-text to ban me when you're blatantly trolling in their faces.

Few non trolls would believe that Armstrong's sudden late career development was due to the "Development of his frontal lobe"

It's a bit more subtle than that, of course, but perhaps they've never heard of it. I was ignorant like you until a couple of years ago.

 

[Anonymous]

*All other teams have been cleared

all other teams where "cleared", or simply there was not sufficient evidence to go forward with a prosecution...

my reading of it, was that other teams also had "irregularities" but there is not enough to push for a prosecution whereas they think with astana that there may be (and even if it turns out that there isnt sufficient evidence to move forward its far preferable to have everyone whisper about astana than saxo or someone else)

 

[Nalgas Hombre]

Even more thread material about the latest Astana issue, and even though there was a request for only facts, still infested by trolls

People in glass houses ...

 

[frenchfry]

The time frame for these sorts of "revelations" in the media are just ridiculous.

The only way they should do things and the only thing cycling fans should pay attention to is:
1)Rider identified only by secret number is tested by lab A
2) Results are known immediately and reported to sanctioning body (UCI for example)
3) Results announced to rider
4) Samples (still protected by secret code) are retested by lab B (perhaps of riders choice from approved list)
5) Rider has x days to respond
6) Sanctioning body determines guilt or innocence
7) if rider is found guilty sanctioning agency declares rider guilty and announces punishment and this is the absolute first time anyone other than the rider and the sanctioning agency have known about this.

Anything other than this is ridiculous. The riders should get together and insist on this kind of protocol. No searching of trash, no newspaper allegations, no multitude of different testing bodies testing the same riders all the time... just hard and fast FACTS based on actual contents of riders bodies.

You are confusing testing protocol of the anti-doping organisations (under the WADA umbrella) and investigations into doping practices conducted by national police agencies with regards to infractions of local laws.

WADA agencies are restricted to the protocol you have summarized and have virtually no investigative capabilities or power beyond the testing of samples and handing out of suspensions. This limits their ability to have a significant impact on doping. Fortunately some countries, including France, see sports doping as a serious criminal matter and have invested their law enforcement agencies with the task of searching out and prosecuting those who don't respect the law. Historically, police investigations have had significantly more impact on outing dopers than lab testing.

There have already been many findings by the French police of doping in other sports (especially middle distance running) so this latest news is in no way an indication that cycling in general and Armstrong in particular are being singled out.

 

[stephens]

I'm not confusing them so much as making a statement that the police type investigations simply shouldn't exist. I simply don't believe that doping in sports is a "serious criminal matter" that governments should be concerned with.

It's one thing for a sporting organization to lay down rules that it expects the athletes to conform to if they wish to participate in events that organization sanctions and promotes. It's quite another for governments to get involved. What's next? Police going to football matches and handing out battery charges for every hard tackle or stray elbow?

Just my opinion, and clearly the ship has already sailed, but as a citizen and a sports fan, I find it all a bit ridiculous. If one is not gambling on the events, it's just entertainment anyway.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

I'm not confusing them so much as making a statement that the police type investigations simply shouldn't exist. I simply don't believe that doping in sports is a "serious criminal matter" that governments should be concerned with.

It's one thing for a sporting organization to lay down rules that it expects the athletes to conform to if they wish to participate in events that organization sanctions and promotes. It's quite another for governments to get involved. What's next? Police going to football matches and handing out battery charges for every hard tackle or stray elbow?

Just my opinion, and clearly the ship has already sailed, but as a citizen and a sports fan, I find it all a bit ridiculous. If one is not gambling on the events, it's just entertainment anyway.

Yes, it is only entertainment. The problem is certain individuals have turned this entertainment into multi-million and even in one case a billlion dollar business. The excessive money changed the game. Now, I look at pro cycling as a very serious entertainment business and business laws should be applied and if I cheat in business and am caught, there are legal ramifications. Bernie Maddof (sp?) will spend the next 150 years in prison pondering that basic fact of life. Winning by fraudulent means to me is tantamount to the same fraud perpetrated by old Bernie. If you don't agree, then I have some underwater real estate in Florida I would like to sell you.

 

[stephens]

Again, unless one is a gambler, he does not lose financially when an athlete commits "fraud" by using performance enhancing drugs, nor is the fan harmed in any physical way. That's the difference between breaking sporting rules and committing real crimes like investment fraud or meth production/sale/use: crimes have real victims. (not just hurt feelings).