JV and Garmin - paragons of cleanER?

[Gavandope]

Wow! Can't wait to read your treatise about how JV faked the moon landing.

Oh no, please tell me no one here really thinks that the moon landing were faked. I have plenty of them knocking on my door who also argue the earth is 6,000 years old and radioactive decay is a lie!

 

[Gavandope]

Floyd is legally bound to pay back those who want a refund.

Funny enough, the biggest contributors (that very small handful that donated most of the money) will likely never come-a-knockin'. They probably want to keep this whole affair at arms length. And they likely won't miss the money either.

But those other peeps who DEMAND THEIR REFUND!?

Yeah, they'll be able to get back their $25.00.


Floyd Landis must reimburse donors
http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8297769/floyd-landis-avoid-jail-donors-get-reimbursed

And so he should. Though they should give their 25 bucks to charity as anyone who bought his book and believed him was an absolute mug!

 

[Benotti69]

Wow! Can't wait to read your treatise about how JV faked the moon landing.

You must have a 'clean' tattoo........

 

[DirtyWorks]

Wow! Can't wait to read your treatise about how JV faked the moon landing.

Go ahead and disagree, but this personal attack does not contribute anything.

What do I know? According to some, I don't understand cycling at all.

 

[D-Queued]

Dave, we both know what time it is so let's not beat around the bush.
Wiggo and Hesjedal doped to get their GT results. Sky doped to get their results. Isn't Vaughters' clean cycling campaign the least bit disturbing to you?
In your view, how does the Vaughters/Garmin lie compare to Landis?

You are comparing conjecture with fact, and thereby to try and give credence to your conjecture.

No contest.

Fact wins. Landis loses.

Yes, it is that simple.

And, your assertion of a lie is at this point a lie itself.




With respect to my view, I am far more confused by JV's support of and for Landis given the fraud that Landis perpetrated than I am convinced of anything by the innuendo campaign that has gone on for pages and pages. If anywhere a fault could be drawn on JV's commitment to anti-doping, why aren't we asking how on earth he could support Floyd?

When you talk about Ryder doping, please allow me to indulge in observing that I revealed far earlier knowledge of Ryder's past than most on these boards.

As I have already recounted, please recall that I confronted JV with Ryder's doping history BEFORE he was signed by JV to a contract.

I was surprised that JV even entered that conversation with someone like me. He had virtually nothing to gain from it.

To his credit, I received a straighter answer from JV than I expected - and a far more honest response than pretty much ANYONE else I have discussed Ryder with.

Most knowledgeable locals simply wanted to pretend Ryder didn't dope, or at least have selective amnesia.

What is more disturbing to me about Ryder's doping is those people that were trying to exploit knowledge of Ryder's past for their own (dubious) benefits to apparently shield focus on what were 'surprising' performances by others.

Am I confused by Ryder's Giro? Yes.

Do I wish that Ryder would provide us with more public insight into his Disco doping? Yes.

I would also like to know what the longer term benefits of doping are.

Confusion, hope, and even smell test aside, there is no evidence of any lie from JV. Moreover, there is no evidence of anything that could remotely compare with Landis, let alone surpass it.

In response to what came out of Landis' mouth, JV noted the "I'll say... no" quote. That was minor, however, compared to all of the lies about JD and beer, etc., that Landis spewed almost non-stop. He had the excuse-o-matic machine cranked up to '11'.

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Floyd Landis must reimburse donors
http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8297769/floyd-landis-avoid-jail-donors-get-reimbursed

I had half started writing a similar reply, so thanks for saving me the time.
Good, succinct post, Granville57.

 

[Parker]

I'd make two points here.

Firstly, Floyd Landis. He may be a nice guy. JV seems to like him. But on the rap sheet of offences he is second only to Armstrong.
He was an enthusiastic participant in the US Postal program
He continued to the best of his ability when he went to Phonak
He published a book about how he was innocent (like Virenque)
He intimidated LeMond with regard to highly personal matters
He hacked anti-doping computers
He solicited donations from the public with a lie
He still claims he didn't take the drug he tested positive for.

This is to some, a great hero. The truth is he ran out of dishonest options, right up to the time he found out he could get money for exposing a fraud in which he was a major beneficiary. Many years after it mattered. To call him a whistle blower is offensive to whistle blowers.

If he makes more than a cent from his Qui Tam case it will be a farce.

So why does Digger love him so? Is it because Paul Kimmage, the person he loves with a devotion that would make a One Direction fan queasy, had not really made as much contribution to the Armstrong debate as he made out. (Wheelmen doesn't mention him, Macur's book only mentions his press conference grandstanding - no actual journalism). So his Landis interview gave him that and for that he became untouchable to the Kimmage flock.

 

[Afrank]

This thread is not about Digger, so please desist with the personal attacks and off topic posts.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

comment redacted by mod

1. It's a JV thread. Discussing Digger is OT, and thus against the rules, regardless of any perception of "injecting into this thread" that has occurred
2. It was not presented as opinion
3. It's personal, and attacking Digger. This is against the rules.

That you can try to break the rules and have your rule breaking post deleted or modified seems a perfectly normal forum response.

It is in no way, shape or form mod bias.

 

[westerner]

http://http://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/

As a transparent team why does Garmin not provide data to show how rigorous its internal controls are? At least USADA has some sort of transparency this way. Follow the link above and one can find that USADA have tested Tommy D 3 whole times in 2014. What would be the harm to provide the data: Athlete/test date/announced or unannounced/full or partial screen/blood or urine or both. There is no info on the Slipstream Web site of an internal testing program at all? Why no info for the fans on code of conduct. If JV wants trust he needs to do transparency and communication better IMHO. Just saying "trust me" is not enough at this time in the sport. The last interview given by RH was done by a press officer email for goodness sake.

http://http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/06/news/exclusive-hesjedal-speaks-past-doping-offenses_328778

Is not trust also gained when team athletes can speak honestly without fear - otherwise this is a type of omerta in action. No? If JV operated any team that just said it was a pro team, OK. But when you take a stand against doping and use it as a marketing tool then one must expect to be held to a higher standard in talk and actions than most.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

http://http://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/

As a transparent team why does Garmin not provide data to show how rigorous its internal controls are? At least USADA has some sort of transparency this way. Follow the link above and one can find that USADA have tested Tommy D 3 whole times in 2014. What would be the harm to provide the data: Athlete/test date/announced or unannounced/full or partial screen/blood or urine or both. There is no info on the Slipstream Web site of an internal testing program at all? Why no info for the fans on code of conduct. If JV wants trust he needs to do transparency and communication better IMHO. Just saying "trust me" is not enough at this time in the sport. The last interview given by RH was done by a press officer email for goodness sake.

http://http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/06/news/exclusive-hesjedal-speaks-past-doping-offenses_328778

Is not trust also gained when team athletes can speak honestly without fear - otherwise this is a type of omerta in action. No? If JV operated any team that just said it was a pro team, OK. But when you take a stand against doping and use it as a marketing tool then one must expect to be held to a higher standard in talk and actions than most.

I've asked what the anti-doping policy was in the past and got shouted down. Claims of "it's obvious" or "it's well known" etc were met with questions from me of, "can you show me where it's written down?"

I think that's when they started calling me a JV hater or something.

I want to read this policy. Written on an official Slipstream website or press release or something, somewhere.

Can't do so.

Seems strange.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'd make two points here.

Firstly, Floyd Landis. He may be a nice guy. JV seems to like him. But on the rap sheet of offences he is second only to Armstrong....

Conveniently, you don't seem to understand how his positive came to be, how the positive was handled by the UCI, or the circumstances behind the FFF.

A trip through a Floyd thread or two is advised. But, would challenge your world view.

To be clear, I wouldn't trust Floyd to tell me the weather or dump my trash, but it's clear there are no good guys in the whole drama. The way Floyd turned it around onto sports administrators was the best case.

 

[red_flanders]

...I wouldn't trust Floyd to tell me the weather or dump my trash, but it's clear there are no good guys in the whole drama. The way Floyd turned it around onto sports administrators was the best case.

That's incredibly well-stated. Good post.

 

[sniper]

...

thanks Dave, very good to hear your side of it.

When you talk about Ryder doping, please allow me to indulge in observing that I revealed far earlier knowledge of Ryder's past than most on these boards.

Indeed you did.

As I have already recounted, please recall that I confronted JV with Ryder's doping history BEFORE he was signed by JV to a contract.

Interesting. So what do you make of the fact that JV outed three of his riders in here but not Hesjedal? You really accept JV's explanation that the secrecy was called for due to the ongoing usada investigation?

I was surprised that JV even entered that conversation with someone like me. He had virtually nothing to gain from it.

Of course he had something to gain from such intel. More like 'nothing to loose'.

Am I confused by Ryder's Giro? Yes.

don't be

Confusion, hope, and even smell test aside, there is no evidence of any lie from JV. Moreover, there is no evidence of anything that could remotely compare with Landis, let alone surpass it.

I disagree with your take on JV. I think he knows what time it is and is lying us in the face.
If you've followed the thread, you must have seen several factual lies from JV pointed out by different posters.

One easy example is JV vouching for the cleanliness of his riders, even bringing the Good Lord into the equation. You know as well as I do that he cannot, for the love of God, vouch for the cleanliness of his riders.
Plenty of other examples. I can't be bothered now but if you insist I'll dig some up. A good starting point is to check on some of Dear Wiggo's recent posts.
Also check out westerner's excellent post and try to reconcile that with the idea of clean Garmin riders.

It's simply too big a stretch to reconcile all the facts, statements and results relating to Garmin with the view that Garmin (first and foremost Wiggo and Hesjedal) have been clean. Assuming they doped is so much easier.
Occam's razor and all.

 

[D-Queued]

thanks Dave, very good to hear your side of it.

Indeed you did.


Interesting. So what do you make of the fact that JV outed three of his riders in here but not Hesjedal? You really accept JV's explanation that the secrecy was called for due to the ongoing usada investigation?

Of course he had something to gain from such intel. More like 'nothing to loose'.

don't be

I disagree with your take on JV. I think he knows what time it is and is lying us in the face.
If you've followed the thread, you must have seen several factual lies from JV pointed out by different posters.

One easy example is JV vouching for the cleanliness of his riders, even bringing the Good Lord into the equation. You know as well as I do that he cannot, for the love of God, vouch for the cleanliness of his riders.
Plenty of other examples. I can't be bothered now but if you insist I'll dig some up. A good starting point is to check on some of Dear Wiggo's recent posts.
Also check out westerner's excellent post and try to reconcile that with the idea of clean Garmin riders.

It's simply too big a stretch to reconcile all the facts, statements and results relating to Garmin with the view that Garmin (first and foremost Wiggo and Hesjedal) have been clean. Assuming they doped is so much easier.
Occam's razor and all.

Thanks.

I think he simply slipped up on mentioning those three in here. The info was public shortly thereafter.

Simple explanations are usually easier. If he had some sort of vendetta/gripe/devious plan to out them, this is a pretty inefficient place to do so.

I am ok with agreeing to disagree with you.

I am not sure, however, that I would be able to be 100% consistent with my own record on public statements and various facts were I to be in a similar position. I've been surprised by things I have actually said in previous posts. And, completely unrelated to this forum, I have been even more surprised in the past by how I have been quoted in the press - even when I get to review the article prior to release.

Dave.

 

[pmcg76]

thanks Dave, very good to hear your side of it.

Indeed you did.


Interesting. So what do you make of the fact that JV outed three of his riders in here but not Hesjedal? You really accept JV's explanation that the secrecy was called for due to the ongoing usada investigation?

Of course he had something to gain from such intel. More like 'nothing to loose'.

don't be

I disagree with your take on JV. I think he knows what time it is and is lying us in the face.
If you've followed the thread, you must have seen several factual lies from JV pointed out by different posters.

One easy example is JV vouching for the cleanliness of his riders, even bringing the Good Lord into the equation. You know as well as I do that he cannot, for the love of God, vouch for the cleanliness of his riders.
Plenty of other examples. I can't be bothered now but if you insist I'll dig some up. A good starting point is to check on some of Dear Wiggo's recent posts.
Also check out westerner's excellent post and try to reconcile that with the idea of clean Garmin riders.

It's simply too big a stretch to reconcile all the facts, statements and results relating to Garmin with the view that Garmin (first and foremost Wiggo and Hesjedal) have been clean. Assuming they doped is so much easier.
Occam's razor and all.

So are you claiming JV is running a doping program at Garmin or that he doesn't have a clue who is doping at Garmin, it cannot really be both.

 

[Netserk]

So are you claiming JV is running a doping program at Garmin or that he doesn't have a clue who is doping at Garmin, it cannot really be both.

Why can't he run a program for some of his riders and be clueless about the rest?

(playing devil's advocate)

 

[pmcg76]

Why can't he run a program for some of his riders and be clueless about the rest?

(playing devil's advocate)

How likely would it be that Ryder would be one of the riders he wouldn't have on a program.

 

[westerner]

When Ryder first chose to dope he did not need a big team or a director to help him. Anyone who says they KNOW any pro athlete is not doping is a fool. The only one who knows for sure is the athlete themselves. Unless JV is in Maui/BC/Girono/Canaries watching his athlete 24/7 he cannot "know". RH is forever tainted, its a fact no spin can change. The whole skirting of the SOL that was done, however it was done, does not exactly help build trust back either.

 

[Benotti69]

So are you claiming JV is running a doping program at Garmin or that he doesn't have a clue who is doping at Garmin, it cannot really be both.

Why not? He could be running a program for trusted riders and those he doesn't trust can be doing their own thing as long as they pass the internal tests.

For someone who claims it is not black and white you really fail this one.

 

[Gavandope]

So are you claiming JV is running a doping program at Garmin or that he doesn't have a clue who is doping at Garmin, it cannot really be both.

If jv is running a doping program then all my receding hair on my bald head will grow back in the morning.

Individual riders without the teams knowledge cannot be ruled out but I'm fairly sure his Edgarco-o-meter would spot that happening. Other teams possibly might turn a blind eye to it!

 

[MarkvW]

When Ryder first chose to dope he did not need a big team or a director to help him. Anyone who says they KNOW any pro athlete is not doping is a fool. The only one who knows for sure is the athlete themselves. Unless JV is in Maui/BC/Girono/Canaries watching his athlete 24/7 he cannot "know". RH is forever tainted, its a fact no spin can change. The whole skirting of the SOL that was done, however it was done, does not exactly help build trust back either.

I don't think that is necessarily true. A director with pro experience who stays current with a rider's training regimen and blood values ought to be able to form a reliable and solid opinion on the rider's use (or non use) of PEDs.

 

[the sceptic]

I don't think that is necessarily true. A director with pro experience who stays current with a rider's training regimen and blood values ought to be able to form a reliable and solid opinion on the rider's use (or non use) of PEDs.

Youre probably right. But its still hard to take JV, Ryder and God on their words without anything more to back it up with.

If Hesjedal had showed some real remorse, and made a confession out of his own free will, I would have some respect for him.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

How likely would it be that Ryder would be one of the riders he wouldn't have on a program.

Pretty sure rider Ryder was on a Sky program minus the program in 2013.

2012?
That will be for the rider to explain.

Still, the question remains, wtf is wrong with Farrar? Still down?

 

[red_flanders]

Why not? He could be running a program for trusted riders and those he doesn't trust can be doing their own thing as long as they pass the internal tests.

For someone who claims it is not black and white you really fail this one.

FFS, you have no reason to believe he's running a doping program. I mean, it's within the realm of possibility, but it's damn unlikely. I think you're way out to lunch on this one.