JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

[Benotti69]

I for one lost complete respect for you. You didn’t stop. I told you to stop. Many asked you to stop. I asked the moderators to close the thread. I mentioned that it’s bordering on legal territory but the thread still remained open.

The absurdity of your arguments that Jonathan Vaughters has no spine but the fact that you didn’t know him and once he contacted you directly you saw the light? Now he has a spine? Because you now know him? You went on a one man demolition job out to get one person. And you didn’t stop. I said many times that Mr. Vaughters is a great man. There is so much he does on the anti-doping front that none of us ever hear about. Floyd has taken the kamikaze route to redemption. It was the only option left for Landis. JV has taken another route and for good reason. Its takes both types and they compliment each well for the end goal of dope free cycling.

We like you. But next time listen to your peers when they speak. Back off and think about what you’re writing. If you wanted to print your real name, admit to any indiscretions of your own then and still name call Vaughters then go for it. But hiding behind an IP address and shooting down one of the good guys is not on. All you really did was force the omerta – the very thing you were saying you were attempting to stop.

Think about your actions next time. You hurt very good people.

To CyclingNews:- Next time - when someone lodges a formal complaint you need to take action. Doing nothing is not an excuse or a bypass for legal action.

At the end of day it’s just an Internet forum. A lot of stuff just gets thrown around on this board. A good 70% is fantasy. None the less using the internet as a tool for bullying is against the law. Don’t do it.

Maybe 70% is fantasy and another 25% is BS, about 5% is worth reading

 

[Anonymous]

Firstly - good on JV for taking the time to write to you, and also well done to you to for being able to go back and review your opinion.
m.

Ditto

But next time listen to your peers when they speak. Back off and think about what you’re writing. Think about your actions next time. You hurt very good people.

That too.

 

[Barrus]

I for one lost complete respect for you. You didn’t stop. I told you to stop. Many asked you to stop. I asked the moderators to close the thread. I mentioned that it’s bordering on legal territory but the thread still remained open.

The absurdity of your arguments that Jonathan Vaughters has no spine but the fact that you didn’t know him and once he contacted you directly you saw the light? Now he has a spine? Because you now know him? You went on a one man demolition job out to get one person. And you didn’t stop. I said many times that Mr. Vaughters is a great man. There is so much he does on the anti-doping front that none of us ever hear about. Floyd has taken the kamikaze route to redemption. It was the only option left for Landis. JV has taken another route and for good reason. Its takes both types and they compliment each well for the end goal of dope free cycling.

We like you. But next time listen to your peers when they speak. Back off and think about what you’re writing. If you wanted to print your real name, admit to any indiscretions of your own then and still name call Vaughters then go for it. But hiding behind an IP address and shooting down one of the good guys is not on. All you really did was force the omerta – the very thing you were saying you were attempting to stop.

Think about your actions next time. You hurt very good people.

To CyclingNews:- Next time - when someone lodges a formal complaint you need to take action. Doing nothing is not an excuse or a bypass for legal action.

At the end of day it’s just an Internet forum. A lot of stuff just gets thrown around on this board. A good 70% is fantasy. None the less using the internet as a tool for bullying is against the law. Don’t do it.

Legally Cyclingnews can't be held accountable. If you want specifics, I can go into them. I have quite a few pages written on the subject and I would be happy to put them up, but I really doubt anyone is interested

 

[Anonymous]

I think JV contacting Buck is a good example of what he's doing behind the scenes to force change. His tactics and strategy may not meet with everyone's acceptance but I don't think it can be argued that the drug culture is not changing in pro cycling.

Imo, JV has been responsible for at least some of the positives.

 

[Boeing]

He hasn't pm'd me and I have been highly critical of his wardrobe and hair cut

 

[andy1234]

JV PM'd me generally outlining his standing with the major players who have been seen as his allies in the current situation. He offered to provide me with contact info for journalists, WADA officials, and other cycling figures who are engaged in the ongoing controversy and suggested that if I spoke to them, or with the passage of time my perspective on the issue would change and I guess, I might come around to see and understand the way things have been handled.

He encouraged me to contact these people with his assistance.

I reiterated to him by PM that my vociferous opinion did happen to bring out a lot of support for his position, and I explained some of my personal background for why I felt so strongly. I still feel strongly that direct answers are the best.

Obviously I take him at his word that the people involved that he did mention support him.

He addressed the situation with me and all I can do now, and the right thing to do, is to sit back and see how the situation plays out, because I don't know the specifics of what is going on, other than to see the uncertainty of cycling fans here and on other sites.

So in closing, I wish him good luck and success with the main objective of his management, which is successful cycling teams.

PS... I also stated to him that I didn't think the title of the thread was proper, and for that I think CN has a little responsibility.

I am responsible for my actions and invoked the title many, many, times. His direct message to me has led me to reconsider that behavior and admit it's wrong, and apologize for it, and I do apologize JV. The stuff I write does reflect upon me and I should take more effort to refine my words. Going forward I'll try harder in that area.

So, now you have had direct contact with JV "the person", and he's not just a remote public figure, you have become cuddly and friendly?

Given the now legendary strength of your conviction, I'm dissapointed.
Bring back Baddass Buckwheat....

 

[buckwheat]

There is little value beating on JV, it is like kicking a kitten..

This aspect disturbed me. My intent was to buck him up. I can see where my strident talk can possibly be construed as bullying, but it wasn't my intent to be similiar to the entrenched powers

While some may disagree with his strategy the fact is few have done to change the culture of the sport then JV. The goal is long term change.

I'll fall under the highlighted portion.

I for one lost complete respect for you. You didn’t stop. I told you to stop. Many asked you to stop. I asked the moderators to close the thread. I mentioned that it’s bordering on legal territory but the thread still remained open.

The absurdity of your arguments that Jonathan Vaughters has no spine but the fact that you didn’t know him and once he contacted you directly you saw the light? Now he has a spine? Because you now know him? You went on a one man demolition job out to get one person. And you didn’t stop. I said many times that Mr. Vaughters is a great man. There is so much he does on the anti-doping front that none of us ever hear about. Floyd has taken the kamikaze route to redemption. It was the only option left for Landis. JV has taken another route and for good reason. Its takes both types and they compliment each well for the end goal of dope free cycling.

We like you. But next time listen to your peers when they speak. Back off and think about what you’re writing. If you wanted to print your real name, admit to any indiscretions of your own then and still name call Vaughters then go for it. But hiding behind an IP address and shooting down one of the good guys is not on. All you really did was force the omerta – the very thing you were saying you were attempting to stop.

Think about your actions next time. You hurt very good people.

To CyclingNews:- Next time - when someone lodges a formal complaint you need to take action. Doing nothing is not an excuse or a bypass for legal action.

At the end of day it’s just an Internet forum. A lot of stuff just gets thrown around on this board. A good 70% is fantasy. None the less using the internet as a tool for bullying is against the law. Don’t do it.

Fair play, man.

Good posts. Original thread got a little heated but was an entertaining discussion nonetheless.

Ok, good to hear.

But next time listen to your peers when they speak. Back off and think about what you’re writing. Think about your actions next time. You hurt very good people.

I didn't know you were addressing me when this first appeared. "Listen to my peers?" Did you read the thread? I was standing up despite being roundly mocked by my peers. Evidently I have a thick skin. Look at the comments that were and are being made. Some did come round to see my points which actually weren't all my points because I used citations to back up what I wrote and more than just a couple. As for good people being hurt, every one of the people JV mentioned to me have had far worse things slung at them with real world consequences and the intent to hurt them. These have been both financial threats, and probably physical threats as exhibitied by the assault of Stephen Prentiss.

I for one lost complete respect for you. You didn’t stop. I told you to stop. Many asked you to stop. I asked the moderators to close the thread. I mentioned that it’s bordering on legal territory but the thread still remained open..

As for your respect, nothing I can do. I don't recall your asking me to do anything anyway. I remember you lodged something of a protest. I remember being ridiculed by many. Finally you don't understand US law regarding libel, which applies to me.

The absurdity of your arguments that Jonathan Vaughters has no spine but the fact that you didn’t know him and once he contacted you directly you saw the light? Now he has a spine? Because you now know him?.

Although the spine thing is commonly used to symbolize timidity, I regret, I took up that charge. I still feel very strongly about what I wrote. You obviously don't wish for me to continue. I think that's the primary issue at this point, regardless of what goes on in Cycling.

You went on a one man demolition job out to get one person. And you didn’t stop. I said many times that Mr. Vaughters is a great man. There is so much he does on the anti-doping front that none of us ever hear about. Floyd has taken the kamikaze route to redemption. It was the only option left for Landis. JV has taken another route and for good reason. Its takes both types and they compliment each well for the end goal of dope free cycling.

We like you. But next time listen to your peers when they speak. Back off and think about what you’re writing. If you wanted to print your real name, admit to any indiscretions of your own then and still name call Vaughters then go for it. But hiding behind an IP address and shooting down one of the good guys is not on. All you really did was force the omerta – the very thing you were saying you were attempting to stop.
Think about your actions next time. You hurt very good people.

To CyclingNews:- Next time - when someone lodges a formal complaint you need to take action. Doing nothing is not an excuse or a bypass for legal action.

At the end of day it’s just an Internet forum. A lot of stuff just gets thrown around on this board. A good 70% is fantasy. None the less using the internet as a tool for bullying is against the law. Don’t do it.

We just have hugely fundamental disagreements on these things.

My oftentimes inelegant style, and the labels I used were what I regret. The historical figures I cited as well as the literature and quotes are as applicable now as they always were and always will be.


This isn't being productive. As for my real name and my issues, I revealed those to JV to give him a background as to why I feel so strongly and why I take the approach I take. Chief amongst those reasons is that I understand bullies and how to deal with them. What dismayed me was the realization that in encouraging the fight against bullies I was being perceived as being one, which was the furthest thing from my intent.

 

[buckwheat]

So, now you have had direct contact with JV "the person", and he's not just a remote public figure, you have become cuddly and friendly?

Given the now legendary strength of your conviction, I'm dissapointed.
Bring back Baddass Buckwheat....

I do recall when I mentioned the Titanic, you lost what I was saying and called me a rat?

That with all the ridicule I got wasn't really concerned with my "personal feelings," was it?


You engaged in name calling with me and then we both shifted gears and continued to converse.


Anyway, I've made known what I would do, very clear.

I stand by "conviction" very strongly. And you?

 

[fatandfast]

He hasn't pm'd me and I have been highly critical of his wardrobe and hair cut

Yo JV. Enough with the pork chops and all the Austin Powers wardrobe. What's up w the argyle? Enough already. Unless hair dye is on your sponsor list..ditch all the dead weight..they fall off well and can break bones with the best of them but if you want tour stages you better go younger. also since you have that Canadian..use him..race at what he is good at..have the squad support him..he has talent. Send CVV,Tommy D,Danny Pate,and that other silly mustache guy to mow my yard..get rid of the dead weight..put them in an old team car and send them for a cup of coffee in Nebraska

 

[Barrus]

Allright, if this is going to go into the same direction as the last thread, this thread will be closed as well, and whoever does it, they will face consequences

 

[L'arriviste]

My intent was to buck him up. I can see where my strident talk can possibly be construed as bullying, but it wasn't my intent to be similiar to the entrenched powers.

I enjoyed the thread, but you're definitely an acquired taste.

If that was your intent, it just didn't come across like that. I get so frustrated that nobody seems able to just come out and say "I don't dope" (and I see no PR excuse for not saying that at every opportunity) and I think it would be the best thing if someone like JV could talk as direct as you do.

But at times it was like the half-time talk - in which the boss does that thing of beating his players down for their sloppy plays then builds them back up - only without the building back up bit.

I've been flamed by you in the past (or it may have been TFF) for trying to elucidate the viewpoints of others whilst I myself actually agreed with you. It hurt a lot.

Maybe I'm weak, but I have actually caught myself being afraid once or twice to give an opinion because you're running the thread. It's a strange kind of tough love, I suppose. But the love is less evident than the tough.

I would like to see more of the love, sir.

 

[andy1234]

I do recall when I mentioned the Titanic, you lost what I was saying and called me a rat?

That with all the ridicule I got wasn't really concerned with my "personal feelings," was it?


You engaged in name calling with me and then we both shifted gears and continued to converse.


Anyway, I've made known what I would do, very clear.

I stand by "conviction" very strongly. And you?

Nope, I never lost sight of what you were saying and the rat comment wasn't me.
My conviction remains the same, realistic.

 

[Speedzero]

Imo, JV has been responsible for at least some of the positives.

Scott, this is ambiguous to me. Are you saying Jonathan is responsible for some positive developments in anti-doping or is responsible for some positive drug tests? Do you mind clarifying? I think you mean the former ...

 

[Anonymous]

Scott, this is ambiguous to me. Are you saying Jonathan is responsible for some positive developments in anti-doping or is responsible for some positive drug tests? Do you mind clarifying? I think you mean the former ...

Yes, positive developments in terms of changing the doping culture. If nothing else he's provided a work environment where riders can be free NOT to dope, NOT to win at any cost. Also continuing support for the passport has been a net positive. Just look how the doping programmes have changed... power numbers, etc., etc.

 

[BotanyBay]

Or... you're being "managed". I'm not close enough to the situation to have a good smell to see if that's really the case. But I think it is interesting and curious that he PM'd you. Before everyone gets all "Kum-ba-ya", perhaps they should consider the "why" part of this. He's a player at the ProTour level. A significant one. And he has something to gain by calming the masses.

Just yesterday, he laughed-off this same forum in a twitter exchange.

 

[Chuffy]

Sounds like a sensible resolution and it would be nice if a bit more sense and understanding filtered into the Clinic off the back of this.

 

[buckwheat]

I enjoyed the thread, but you're definitely an acquired taste.

If that was your intent, it just didn't come across like that. I get so frustrated that nobody seems able to just come out and say "I don't dope" (and I see no PR excuse for not saying that at every opportunity) and I think it would be the best thing if someone like JV could talk as direct as you do.But at times it was like the half-time talk - in which the boss does that thing of beating his players down for their sloppy plays then builds them back up - only without the building back up bit.

I've been flamed by you in the past (or it may have been TFF) for trying to elucidate the viewpoints of others whilst I myself actually agreed with you. It hurt a lot.

Maybe I'm weak, but I have actually caught myself being afraid once or twice to give an opinion because you're running the thread. It's a strange kind of tough love, I suppose. But the love is less evident than the tough.

I would like to see more of the love, sir.

You said it better than I obviously did.

My sincere apologies for my histrionics.

 

[BotanyBay]

The OJ factor

I remember when I was in college, I was part of a group that was highly critical of the administration and certain policies. We were loud, assertive and simply not going away. And I remember the day they sent what I now refer to as the "white hat". The kind, soothing woman who wanted to "really listen" and help us understand the way things really were. She visited the leadership of the opposition individually, and even convinced several people to drop their swords. It was really divisive. And by her personal visits, she was able to seriously affect the debate.

Think about it Buckwheat... to JV, you're just some anonymous random schlub (no offense intended) on an internet message board. And John friggin Vaughters contacts you personally. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Why would he contact YOU? Because your words are actually being heard and talked about. We're all being watched. They read this stuff as much as we do. Heck, even Armstrong tweeted a couple weeks ago about a comment on a VeloNews article.

Don't let the touch of celebrity affect your thinking. He may very well have something to gain by managing the rhetoric here.

 

[buckwheat]

I remember when I was in college, I was part of a group that was highly critical of the administration and certain policies. We were loud, assertive and simply not going away. And I remember the day they sent what I now refer to as the "white hat". The kind, soothing woman who wanted to "really listen" and help us understand the way things really were. She visited the leadership of the opposition individually, and even convinced several people to drop their swords. It was really divisive. And by her personal visits, she was able to seriously affect the debate.

Think about it Buckwheat... to JV, you're just some anonymous random schlub (no offense intended) on an internet message board. And John friggin Vaughters contacts you personally. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Why would he contact YOU? Because your words are actually being heard and talked about. We're all being watched. They read this stuff as much as we do. Heck, even Armstrong tweeted a couple weeks ago about a comment on a VeloNews article.

I'll start by saying this is my last word here on the subject.

I'd like to think I'm on JV's side toward the goal of pure sport.

If he's not being up front, shame on him.

But I also have to be concerned that I don't sink to the levels of the people I'm supposedly in opposition to, the powers in cycling, and I'll just name one, LA, although there are others.

Don't let the touch of celebrity affect your thinking. He may very well have something to gain by managing the rhetoric here.

The greatest weapon to me is the truth and clear speaking.

But, when I allow my message to be perceived in the same vein as what I'm speaking out against, this is a big warning sign.

In the scheme of things, this is a small battle.

The greats, MLK, Gandhi, and the ultimate model(IMHO), JC stayed on their message.

I understand we're all human, but when I fall short of the ideal, that's my shortcoming.

I reacted to the "hater" comments by a lot of the LA supporters with confusion. I don't even want to see him ground to powder. Hate is not even remotely in my thinking. Exasperation perhaps.

I think I also noted that IMHO LeMond doesn't hate Armstrong, he probably pities him.

If you think my message has validity, keep the pressure on, but also don't fall into the trap I fell into.

I'm compromised here obviously. It's not me giving up, but I'm a spent force on this with JV.

Anyone who feels like you, feel free to utilize my good points and drop the bad ones, and keep it up.

I appreciate your opinion. Especially the name calling, and I understood your preface to it. It's cool.

We're all schlubs or all heroes........New day, new hopes... keep on keeping on and so on and so forth.

ps I'm out, now that's a test of my spine....

psss God help me I'm spineless.

Just to let you know, When JV told me he supported Frankie and Betsy and didn't leave them hanging, I suggested (told him outright)that the best thing to show his support would have been for him to speak under his name to Juliet Macur when he remained anonymous.

OK, I'll pray for strength now.....

 

[BotanyBay]

psss God help me I'm spineless.

It's easy to get sucked into the low road of the argument. I did not follow all of the name calling, but this is an emotional topic. I feel bad that you were chilled by a personal visit (so to speak). I've hurled a few hammers myself in the last 2 days.

I'm just concerned about UCI players coming on a site like this and throwing their weight around, threads getting shut down for reasons other than profanity and libel, etc. I think some people may have struck a significant nerve here, and I think some people at UCI are becoming very concerned that their PR tactics have been outed. This forum is read by a who's who of bike racing, and they know it.

 

[ergmonkey]

Man, JV sounds very serious about this doping stuff.

Maybe. But, he is definitely serious about this image stuff. As well he should be: he does manage a professional sporting franchise, after all.

 

[flicker]

It's easy to get sucked into the low road of the argument. I did not follow all of the name calling, but this is an emotional topic. I feel bad that you were chilled by a personal visit (so to speak). I've hurled a few hammers myself in the last 2 days.

I'm just concerned about UCI players coming on a site like this and throwing their weight around, threads getting shut down for reasons other than profanity and libel, etc. I think some people may have struck a significant nerve here, and I think some people at UCI are becoming very concerned that their PR tactics have been outed. This forum is read by a who's who of bike racing, and they know it.[/QUOTE

People need to realize that when they make comments there may be ramifications. No reason to be intimidated by Jonathan or the UCI etc.
I just think if people make comments they need to stand behind them.

As far as outing individuals on a forum I feel it is tasteless and I am one of the worst offenders here. I hope people realize that what I say is quite tounge and cheek. Beware as I am also a big fan of DIVINE, John Waters and the SMITHS.


I beg the pardon of all those I have offended here.

 

[BotanyBay]

No doubt that some nerves have been touched, and someone's been complaining to management.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The beatings will continue until morale improves. Keep it up, Buckwheat...

 

[BotanyBay]

The beatings will continue until morale improves. Keep it up, Buckwheat...

In other words, don't hit JV's hair.

"Would ya watch the hair! Ya know, I spend a long time on my hair and he hit it--he hit my hair."--Tony Manero