JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

[Chuffy]

I'm just concerned about UCI players coming on a site like this and throwing their weight around, threads getting shut down for reasons other than profanity and libel, etc. I think some people may have struck a significant nerve here, and I think some people at UCI are becoming very concerned that their PR tactics have been outed. This forum is read by a who's who of bike racing, and they know it.

I think you're flattering us. We're not that important. Have you considered that JV might just be a decent chap who took the trouble to respond to some of the cr*p that gets spouted in here? He does have previous for dipping in occasionally. When was the last time anyone of consequence in the Real World (tm) posted?

As for UCI players breathlessly hanging on our every word and running scared because Big Bad Buckwheat (or whoever) has got them sussed....do me a favour.

 

[flicker]

It's easy to get sucked into the low road of the argument. I did not follow all of the name calling, but this is an emotional topic. I feel bad that you were chilled by a personal visit (so to speak). I've hurled a few hammers myself in the last 2 days.

I'm just concerned about UCI players coming on a site like this and throwing their weight around, threads getting shut down for reasons other than profanity and libel, etc. I think some people may have struck a significant nerve here, and I think some people at UCI are becoming very concerned that their PR tactics have been outed. This forum is read by a who's who of bike racing, and they know it.

I think it is great that the UCI and officials read this thread. It is important for them to hear how fans feel about the sport, and a few of the fans here have really good suggestions. With these many minds working together the UCI could garner some positive ideas.

 

[thehog]

People need to realize that when they make comments there may be ramifications. No reason to be intimidated by Jonathan or the UCI etc.
I just think if people make comments they need to stand behind them.

As far as outing individuals on a forum I feel it is tasteless and I am one of the worst offenders here. I hope people realize that what I say is quite tounge and cheek. Beware as I am also a big fan of DIVINE, John Waters and the SMITHS.


I beg the pardon of all those I have offended here.

You a Smiths fan!? I would have said Bryan Adams or Celien Dion. I'm surprised daily by this forum.

 

[BotanyBay]

I think you're flattering us. We're not that important. Have you considered that JV might just be a decent chap who took the trouble to respond to some of the cr*p that gets spouted in here? He does have previous for dipping in occasionally. When was the last time anyone of consequence in the Real World (tm) posted?

As for UCI players breathlessly hanging on our every word and running scared because Big Bad Buckwheat (or whoever) has got them sussed....do me a favour.

If I didn't see threads getting shut down before the PM arrived, I'd be thinking more like you. We're not that important, but when many of these guys' peers are reading this same forum, our words have significant weight (especially when we say meaningful and sharply directed things). They also know that journalists read this site too. They'd rather we provide less motivation for them to pose ultra-stinging questions at press conferences.

 

[Anonymous]

I enjoyed the thread, but you're definitely an acquired taste.

If that was your intent, it just didn't come across like that. I get so frustrated that nobody seems able to just come out and say "I don't dope" (and I see no PR excuse for not saying that at every opportunity) and I think it would be the best thing if someone like JV could talk as direct as you do.

But at times it was like the half-time talk - in which the boss does that thing of beating his players down for their sloppy plays then builds them back up - only without the building back up bit.

I've been flamed by you in the past (or it may have been TFF) for trying to elucidate the viewpoints of others whilst I myself actually agreed with you. It hurt a lot.

Maybe I'm weak, but I have actually caught myself being afraid once or twice to give an opinion because you're running the thread. It's a strange kind of tough love, I suppose. But the love is less evident than the tough.

I would like to see more of the love, sir.

If I did that and I was wrong, I apologize.

 

[L'arriviste]

If I did that and I was wrong, I apologize.

No worries, man. You two are very alike. It was when I'd only been here a few weeks: I guess I still had a lot to learn.

JV has his business, Millar has a stake. So what can they really say?

I get it. But I don't have to like it.

I would also like to know why it's different for Riis. The man has 'fessed up and he still has his business.

 

[Chuffy]

If I didn't see threads getting shut down before the PM arrived, I'd be thinking more like you. We're not that important, but when many of these guys' peers are reading this same forum, our words have significant weight (especially when we say meaningful and sharply directed things). They also know that journalists read this site too. They'd rather we provide less motivation for them to pose ultra-stinging questions at press conferences.

Do you mean the Vaughter's Spine thread? Reading back it looks pretty clear that is was locked down because it descended into a load of the usual bickering and OT rubbish. Nothing to do with CN kowtowing to a UCI Playa.

 

[BotanyBay]

I would also like to know why it's different for Riis. The man has 'fessed up and he still has his business.

Because cycling is bigger than Riis, the fans won't abandon the sport if they get some honesty, and major corporations are still willing to pay $8-10MM for about $75MM worth of press hits.

Paul Kimmage said it very nicely the other day. Cycling is bigger than all of this, so people don't have to stick their heads in the sand anymore.

I'd rather wear clean clothes than dirty ones, but I still need to go outside and live, right?

 

[BotanyBay]

Do you mean the Vaughter's Spine thread? Reading back it looks pretty clear that is was locked down because it descended into a load of the usual bickering and OT rubbish. Nothing to do with CN kowtowing to a UCI Playa.

Not so much. Explain the "RELAX" thread getting closed then. My point there was not to liken him to Armstrong's "young girl twitter stalking", but to criticize JV's imitating Kevin Bacon's "All is well!" moment in the film "Animal House". I likened him to the oil slick behind the batmobile. Sent to obfuscate and distract.

All ain't well. Things are not getting better. The UCI is just getting good at "managing" doping (to quote Paul Kimmage). They're not getting better at fighting it. And even if they are getting better, can't I express my opinion that JV's essentially become their little white hat?

 

[Anonymous]

Not so much. Explain the "RELAX" thread getting closed then. My point there was not to liken him to Armstrong's "young girl twitter stalking", but to criticize JV's imitating Kevin Bacon's "All is well!" moment in the film "Animal House". I likened him to the oil slick behind the batmobile. Sent to obfuscate and distract.

All ain't well. Things are not getting better. The UCI is just getting good at "managing" doping (to quote Paul Kimmage). They're not getting better at fighting it. And even if they are getting better, can't I express my opinion that JV's essentially become their little white hat?

Sure you can. I think you just did.

I get the cynicism. Perhaps that's why JV swerved in here in the first place.

I still will ask folks to look at how the PED protocols have changed. Is there ever going to be a magic bullet? Probably not. But can cycling get back to a point where cyclists can be competitive w/o PED use?

My guess is that is what JV's driving at and I maintain that progress is being made.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

....I am responsible for my actions and invoked the title many, many, times. His direct message to me has led me to reconsider that behavior and admit it's wrong, and apologize for it, and I do apologize JV. The stuff I write does reflect upon me and I should take more effort to refine my words. Going forward I'll try harder in that area.

....IF I could have been more diplomatic but just as forceful, I think that would accrue to my own benefit, just as far as being portrayed more seriously.....

Yes and good on you for recognizing and acknowledging it.

..... I still feel very strongly about what I wrote.....

The funny part is that a number of people appear to have missed that you haven't backed down on your main point. Gotta say buckwheat, there is a certain poetic justice in you being misunderstood because the way you delivered your message wasn't ideal.

...As for my real name and my issues, I revealed those to JV to give him a background as to why I feel so strongly and why I take the approach I take. Chief amongst those reasons is that I understand bullies and how to deal with them...

Bullies. Gotta stand up to them; there is no other way. It will cost you somehow, that's inevitable, but there is no other way. The thing is though, there is more to doping in cycling that a few bullies. The culture in the rest of the cycling community also needs to change. I think it's a mistake to apply the anti-bully approach to the issue of culture change; it seldom 'wins friends and influences people' . Just my $0.02

Perhaps you are of the view that the bullies are so dominant that everyone in cycling is affected, AND there is no other way to stop them than JV directly standing up to them? Or do you think he is one of the few people who might make a stand? (Which is actually more complementary to JV than some of the views expressed on these threads.)

Also, I wont think you are spineless if you break your vow of silence and respond to this post.

But no, no threats or consideration of legal action, but that's pretty funny.

It is funny. You know whether JV threatened you or not, but get to watch a whole bunch of people speculate about it.....knowing there's nothing you can say which will convince them you are telling the truth. More poetic justice.

Wow, I'd be pretty hard headed if that were the case.

In that event, would evacuating a 1000 mile radius around you be enough to ensure public safety, or should the entire hemisphere be vacated?

 

[BotanyBay]

My guess is that is what JV's driving at and I maintain that progress is being made.

One of my main contentions is that we can't measure progress until we have a more accurate description of what we're progressing "from". JV is absolutely in a position to shed more light on where we're progressing from. We need that. But all he's ever willing to do is say "Trust me, things are better". I'll bet if one of Lance's fanboy reporter buddies asked him about progress, Lance would give the same generic non-answer answer.

 

[avanti]

JV is absolutely in a position to shed more light on where we're progressing from. ...............

Excuse me if I missed it in the preceding 94 posts, but who is JV?

 

[Mambo95]

Excuse me if I missed it in the preceding 94 posts, but who is JV?

Jonathon Vaughters (aka JV1973)

 

[Bilirubin]

Trying to look at it from JV's point of view. There he is, running his team, making sure he has all the checks and balances to ensure his riders don't dope, so he is proud of himself and enjoying the sport. He also he sees a wider system that is narrowing the space for doping considerably from his days as a rider. He sees it moving the right way. But then people come along and say: 'no, you're a complete stooge that is covering up the system that is ruining the sport'.

I can see how that could grate. In one world you're mr goodie two shoes, in the other world you're a concerntration camp guard. It must mess with the head.

 

[BotanyBay]

Trying to look at it from JV's point of view. There he is, running his team, making sure he has all the checks and balances to ensure his riders don't dope, so he is proud of himself and enjoying the sport. He also he sees a wider system that is narrowing the space for doping considerably from his days as a rider. He sees it moving the right way. But then people come along and say: 'no, you're a complete stooge that is covering up the system that is ruining the sport'.

I can see how that could grate. In one world you're mr goodie two shoes, in the other world you're a concerntration camp guard. It must mess with the head.

Riis came clean (he was unapologetic) and was able to attract and retain sponsors not only despite his own doping past, but that of others he employs. If Vaughters maintains that being honest and direct about the "hot sauce" will endanger his business model, he's feeding everyone a line of bull. Maybe he sees what Lance did to Frankie's livelihood and fears the same. I just happen to think that JV is more powerful than Frankie and can weather any storm Armstrong can throw at him. So yes, I'd like to see JV stand up and grow a pair.

I don't view him as a concentration camp guard. I just think it's time for him to give full disclosure, and anything short of that (while acting as "Mr Clean") is working against him in a severe way.

 

[Anonymous]

One of my main contentions is that we can't measure progress until we have a more accurate description of what we're progressing "from". JV is absolutely in a position to shed more light on where we're progressing from. We need that. But all he's ever willing to do is say "Trust me, things are better". I'll bet if one of Lance's fanboy reporter buddies asked him about progress, Lance would give the same generic non-answer answer.

In a literal sense you are probably correct. However, I don't believe the doping protocols, of say 4 or 5 years ago, are a huge secret.

Also, performance in terms of watts produced are getting back to more "normal" historic levels as opposed to what was seen in the mid-90's.

I think there are good indicators that things are headed in the right direction and I'm not entirely sure if JV started publicly discussing PED protocols that it would help anything.

 

[Anonymous]

Riis came clean (he was unapologetic) and was able to attract and retain sponsors not only despite his own doping past, but that of others he employs. If Vaughters maintains that being honest and direct about the "hot sauce" will endanger his business model, he's feeding everyone a line of bull. Maybe he sees what Lance did to Frankie's livelihood and fears the same. I just happen to think that JV is more powerful than Frankie and can weather any storm Armstrong can throw at him. So yes, I'd like to see JV stand up and grow a pair.

I don't view him as a concentration camp guard. I just think it's time for him to give full disclosure, and anything short of that (while acting as "Mr Clean") is working against him in a severe way.

Bad analogy. Riis has experience running a horribly doped squad. Basso 2006 Giro. Tyler Hamilton. Dopers galore on that team.

Riis may have come clean but I'd imagine he knew of rider programmes as recently as this year (my opinion).

JV spilling the beans on how riders dope to you and me doesn't have the same impact as talking privately to someone like Ashenden.

 

[lean mean &green]

buckwheat laid it on a little thick the last few days but only expressed his opinion. i followed the threads and believe i read them mostly unedited. there was little if anything i'd view as slanderous or libelous. saying you think a person's actions are spineless is quite innocent when you look at the attitude toward many other polarizing figures often mentioned here. going blue a few times was the only impropriety i could find and the f-word can be removed quite easily without delivering a death blow to the entire debate.

i'm actually at a loss as to why those threads were closed so quickly. many other threads veer off topic much further and remain open. i didn't totally agree with buckwheat but he merely expressed his view. making analogies to historical figures came off as melodramatic and cheesy but poor taste isn't a crime last i checked. if they start banning us for bad judgment and close every thread that meanders they'll be no clinic by the time we hit turkey day

 

[Martin318is]

Not so much. Explain the "RELAX" thread getting closed then.

The relax thread was closed by me I think.

I always (and I do mean ALWAYS) find it hilarious when people come out with theories that moderators on this site have in some way been contacted by either the owners of the site - or even funnier, someone famous - and acted under some form of instructions. The reality is that we act as we see fit when presented with a situation and virtually never have any contact with management.

In this case, I saw this thread spring up at the same time as a number of other threads about JV and a lot of comments in other threads about the Armstrong Twitter episode and frankly on first read it looked like a pile of gibberish.

First we've got Armstrong being a bedroom closer by saying it to Lemond's too-young daughter, and now we've got Vaughters trying to say it to us.

.

... Mister "I'll never get upset about doping" always stands in between the groups, preaching peace and not jumping to conclusions. But really, he's the oil slick behind the batmobile. Sent to slow everyone down and obfuscate the situation. I wouldn't be surprised if McQuaid himself asked Vaughters to get on the horn and get it out there that there is some improvement to the situation.

Context? Vaughters telling us to relax is like Armstrong telling Simone Lemond to relax when she got creeped-out after she caught him stalking her on Twitter.

The above quotes don't merit a thread really. Your explanation here in this thread made me go back and read all the posts in that thread again and I have re-opened it. My apologies to those who had time invested in that thread.

 

[jae2460]

Yaaaawn. Give me a break. You, like most who post in this sespool or "forum" (such as ThoughtforFood, The Hog, etc.) seem like self-important BS artists to me. What you post here doesn't matter. Sorry if I'm bursting your bubble. Any belief to the contrary is delusional. Get a life and get back to work.

 

[BotanyBay]

Your explanation here in this thread made me go back and read all the posts in that thread again and I have re-opened it. My apologies to those who had time invested in that thread.

Perhaps my method of presentation was a bit dramatic as well (ok, it was). I apologize as well. Perhaps I drew my 'conspiracy theory' after hearing about buckwheat getting a PM from JV about these threads.

Sorry, but Armstrong getting pwned by Lemond's two kids is just so damn hillarious, I find it hard to resist. Usually Lance gets the last word on everything, and this time all he can do is crawl under a rock and wait til everyone forgets.

 

[Chuffy]

Not so much. Explain the "RELAX" thread getting closed then. My point there was not to liken him to Armstrong's "young girl twitter stalking", but to criticize JV's imitating Kevin Bacon's "All is well!" moment in the film "Animal House". I likened him to the oil slick behind the batmobile. Sent to obfuscate and distract.

You know what, I never realised that Kevin Bacon was in Animal House. You live and learn.

Mister "I'll never get upset about doping" always stands in between the groups, preaching peace and not jumping to conclusions. But really, he's the oil slick behind the batmobile. Sent to slow everyone down and obfuscate the situation. I wouldn't be surprised if McQuaid himself asked Vaughters to get on the horn and get it out there that there is some improvement to the situation.

As for the 'white hat' school of conspiracy theory, I'm sorry but that's just desperate (even assuming that your comment about McQuaid wasn't serious). It would seem that JV coming on here has shaken a few people's cast-iron certainty about the utter corruption in road cycling. Said people then have to retcon JV's visit to support their way of thinking. Seriously, some of you lot need to get out more.

I always (and I do mean ALWAYS) find it hilarious when people come out with theories that moderators on this site have in some way been contacted by either the owners of the site - or even funnier, someone famous - and acted under some form of instructions. The reality is that we act as we see fit when presented with a situation and virtually never have any contact with management.

Having modded a cycling forum in the past I'm not surprised in the slightest. In fact you've been sent by the management to deliberately confuse things, haven't you? You can't fool us, the gnomes in our breakfast cereal tell us the truth that *they* don't want us to hear.

 

[Bilirubin]

If Vaughters maintains that being honest and direct about the "hot sauce" will endanger his business model, he's feeding everyone a line of bull.

There seems to be two issues. One on the current system, and one on his 1990s history with Armstrong. I don't think the two are necessarily related.

Sorry, but Armstrong getting pwned by Lemond's two kids is just so damn hillarious

Hardly a pwning.

 

[BotanyBay]

There seems to be two issues. One on the current system, and one on his 1990s history with Armstrong. I don't think the two are necessarily related.

Of course they're related. His role in the current system is based on his supposed personal position on the issue. In order for that to remain credible, he needs to be more forthcoming on the 90's history. Winking and talking **** about Lance with Frankie in an IM conversation is not enough.

And yeah, Simone caught him, and her brother made him look like a total ***.