JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

[TexPat]

It would help ruin Armstrong's reputation with the wider public and possibly send him to jail, but why would Vaughters want to do that? Would something so divisive and painful be good for the sport? JV would be hated by most of the fans for being such a tale, tale about such a big star in an era where everyone knows what the guys at the front had to do.

JV is not about vendettas and spitefulness, he is about moving the current sport forward and leading by example. This strategy has already worked - if it weren't for Garmin I doubt British cycling would have entered the fray by setting up their team, widely accepted as a clean set up. Columbia and others have also followed Garmin's no needle policy procedures. There is no need to rip up previous eras and possibly destroy the sport in order to save it.

At the end of the day this is only a sport. Nobody needs to go to jail. I'm sure Vaughters would agree with that.

Would you mind defining "vendettas and spitefulness"? Its usage in the context of this discussion implies unworthiness or even untruthiness (to quote The Colbert Report).

Is that what you think motivates everyone who'd like to see the sport cleaned up?

Would it not be better for someone to come clean, rather than face the spectre of suspicion for the rest of their lives?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It would help ruin Armstrong's reputation with the wider public and possibly send him to jail, but why would Vaughters want to do that? Would something so divisive and painful be good for the sport? JV would be hated by most of the fans for being such a tale, tale about such a big star in an era where everyone knows what the guys at the front had to do.

JV is not about vendettas and spitefulness, he is about moving the current sport forward and leading by example. This strategy has already worked - if it weren't for Garmin I doubt British cycling would have entered the fray by setting up their team, widely accepted as a clean set up. Columbia and others have also followed Garmin's no needle policy procedures. There is no need to rip up previous eras and possibly destroy the sport in order to save it.

At the end of the day this is only a sport. Nobody needs to go to jail. I'm sure Vaughters would agree with that.

How do you know that BPC?

Vaughters has only to look out for his own team, nothing more.
However if called in by the Feds he would have to tell the truth - which I expect him to do, regardless of the consequences for others.

 

[BotanyBay]

It would help ruin Armstrong's reputation with the wider public and possibly send him to jail, but why would Vaughters want to do that? Would something so divisive and painful be good for the sport? JV would be hated by most of the fans for being such a tale, tale about such a big star.......

I received the email (below) today. I'll protect the privacy of this individual, but it comes from someone very close to this situation. I'll leave it at that:

"Frankie came clean, and could have been subjected to less abuse if JV had spoken up. Prentice Steffen, Stephen Swart and Emma O'Reilly would have suffered less if JV had spoken up. The thing that bothers me (redacted) is the complete lack of balls that so many people directly involved had while all of the aforementioned as well as (redacted) were being skewered and slandered."

I have more respect for this person's opinion than anyone else's (mine included). Whatever JV's motivations may have been, he made his decisions at the cost of his own spine and integrity. I don't care if it influences your opinions, but it certainly has reaffirmed mine. Thank you to the one who sent it. It made my week.

 

[flicker]

I received the email (below) today. I'll respect the privacy of this individual, but it comes from someone very close to the situation. I'll leave it at that:

"Frankie came clean, and could have been subjected to less abuse if JV had spoken up. Prentice Steffen, Stephen Swart and Emma O'Reilly would have suffered less if JV had spoken up. The thing that bothers me (redacted) is the complete lack of balls that so many people directly involved had while all of the aforementioned as well as (redacted) were being skewered and slandered."

I have more respect for this person's opinion than anyone else's (mine included). Whatever JV's motivations may have been, he made his decisions at the cost of his own spine and integrity. I don't care if it influences your opinions, but it certainly has reaffirmed mine. Thank you to the one who sent it. It made my week.

That was written by another spurned fan-boy of Armstrong. I think people here and ex friends of Armstrong expect to much of others.

Same with LeMond, they expect that someone else is going to fix their hurt feelings for being wronged. As a divorcee I assure the writer of the e-mail that things don't usually work that way in real life or in the workplace. Best to learn from the lesson and move on.

JV seems like a mature responsable individual. I am sure when he makes decision he has weighed out the cause and effect.

As a team manager he will have no effect one way or another as the Frankie,Betsy,Vaughters phone calls witnessing is simply tabloid material.

 

[Bilirubin]

I received the email (below) today. I'll protect the privacy of this individual, but it comes from someone very close to this situation. I'll leave it at that:

"Frankie came clean, and could have been subjected to less abuse if JV had spoken up. Prentice Steffen, Stephen Swart and Emma O'Reilly would have suffered less if JV had spoken up. The thing that bothers me (redacted) is the complete lack of balls that so many people directly involved had while all of the aforementioned as well as (redacted) were being skewered and slandered."

I have more respect for this person's opinion than anyone else's (mine included). Whatever JV's motivations may have been, he made his decisions at the cost of his own spine and integrity. I don't care if it influences your opinions, but it certainly has reaffirmed mine. Thank you to the one who sent it. It made my week.

It states Frankie "came clean", yet he testified under oath that he had not seen Armstrong dope, so if this is about "balls" then he doesn't have much either.

If this is a vendetta against Armstrong then I can understand how Vaughters hasn't done what some people want him to do. But the sport in general is another matter. It's two different issues.

 

[BotanyBay]

That was written by another spurned fan-boy of Armstrong. I think people here and ex friends of Armstrong expect to much of others.

Same with LeMond, they expect that someone else is going to fix their hurt feelings for being wronged. As a divorcee I assure the writer of the e-mail that things don't usually work that way in real life or in the workplace. Best to learn from the lesson and move on.

JV seems like a mature responsable individual. I am sure when he makes decision he has weighed out the cause and effect.

As a team manager he will have no effect one way or another as the Frankie,Betsy,Vaughters phone calls witnessing is simply tabloid material.

I knew the pre-cancer Lance, and true to legend, he was a gluteus maximus. I briefly became a fanboy, because I bought that whole "cancer transformation" BS. Yeah, 'brutha lost some weight and when mixed with rocket fuel, he was the new King of the Hill. I get that now.

And you know what, if he'd have just taken his dirty winnings and went away (like Mig did), I'd have been content. But he just couldn't stop being Lance the hero. It's fraud, and it hurts more than just Frankie, Betsy, et all.

It needs to be ended, and these same people (by initially saying nothing) all helped build it. They need to go back and correct the wrong now. Betsy and Frank have done so. Several others too. And the others should either go away quietly (and anonymously) or buckle down and fess-up.

 

[Bilirubin]

Would you mind defining "vendettas and spitefulness"?

Armstrong is a tough operator who has made many enemies in his time. The campaign against him is largely motivated by grudges and feuds going back decades. That's what I mean. Vaughters likely doesn't think getting involved in that is good for the sport or serves any purpose for how the system is run now. (But yes I'm sure he will cooperate with the feds now that he has been forced to.)

Some people can't seem to seperate the two matters in their minds.

 

[BotanyBay]

The campaign against him is largely motivated by grudges and feuds going back decades.

I knew Lance from back in the day. A jerk, but I know people that I disliked even more than he, and I've got no beef with them. Heck, I remember him taking his hand and shoving one of my buddies that was on the wheel he wanted to be on. That's bike racing though. Filled with arrogant *** like Lance.

The campaign against Lance is more accurately motivated by the fact that not all people are as stupid as narcissists (like Lance) have assumed. I don't like people treating me like I'm stupid (or crazy).

 

[flicker]

I knew the pre-cancer Lance, and true to legend, he was a gluteus maximus. I briefly became a fanboy, because I bought that whole "cancer transformation" BS. Yeah, 'brutha lost some weight and when mixed with rocket fuel, he was the new King of the Hill. I get that now.

And you know what, if he'd have just taken his dirty winnings and went away (like Mig did), I'd have been content. But he just couldn't stop being Lance the hero. It's fraud, and it hurts more than just Frankie, Betsy, et all.

It needs to be ended, and these same people (by initially saying nothing) all helped build it. They need to go back and correct the wrong now. Betsy and Frank have done so. Several others too. And the others should either go away quietly (and anonymously) or buckle down and fess-up.

I guess a lot of folks would like Vaughters/Frankie/Betsy to "Get all medieval on Lance". Somehow I think Vaughters probably realizes that Novitzky and the Feds don't play like that.
I would think Novizky would just like to get his job done. Vaughters I imagine would answer only the questions he would need to.

At the end of the day i would think Novitzky would want to pin a charge on Armstrong and make it stick, something anything to justify his investigation. I do not think Vaughters has vengence in his heart.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Armstrong is a tough operator who has made many enemies in his time. The campaign against him is largely motivated by grudges and feuds going back decades. That's what I mean. Vaughters likely doesn't think getting involved in that is good for the sport or serves any purpose for how the system is run now. (But yes I'm sure he will cooperate with the feds now that he has been forced to.)

Some people can't seem to seperate the two matters in their minds.

No it isn't BPC - and it has been explained to you before.

 

[TexPat]

No it isn't BPC - and it has been explained to you before.

Grazie, dottore.

 

[BotanyBay]

I guess a lot of folks would like Vaughters/Frankie/Betsy to "Get all medieval on Lance". Somehow I think Vaughters probably realizes that Novitzky and the Feds don't play like that.
I would think Novizky would just like to get his job done. Vaughters I imagine would answer only the questions he would need to.

At the end of the day i would think Novitzky would want to pin a charge on Armstrong and make it stick, something anything to justify his investigation. I do not think Vaughters has vengence in his heart.

If JV were really Frankie's friend, he'd have helped publicly dispel Lance's camp's position that Frankie's just married to a crazy-*****-wife who just insanely hates Lance for making her hubby work on weekends. But he did nothing. CYOA. Nice friend!

I don't even think that Betsy "hated" Lance. She just wasn't prepared to commit perjury for him, and probably did not want to be married to a guy who'd do the same. When the SCA lawyers came a knocking (based on having read his book about who was there that day), she decided to be smart and tell the truth. The fact that she even HAD to do that is evidence of her being victimized by the fraud.

JV lost his way long before he'd ever heard the name Novitsky.

 

[BotanyBay]

It states Frankie "came clean", yet he testified under oath that he had not seen Armstrong dope, so if this is about "balls" then he doesn't have much either.

Not a very nice position to have been forced into, is it? So if JV has anyone to be ****ed at, it's not us, not the Andreus, but Lance himself.

But sometimes in life, you've gotta answer some questions with honesty. Life just works that way.

 

[flicker]

I do not know any of the folks you have mentioned except by reading about them. Like I said before I have been divorced before. Mutual friends of a couple will have to choose sides on who they want to remain friends with.

Now Vaughters (who I respect for his intelligence) probably wanted to stay clear of the mud-slinging as he probably has to have dealings with Frankie and wife and with Lance/Bruyneel and their teams.

I know in the spine thread people expected and extraordinary amount from Mr. Vaughters. He is not Jesus, he is only a man.

 

[Bilirubin]

No it isn't BPC - and it has been explained to you before.

If that's directed at me, nobody has explained this to me before. But I've seen many people say it's not even really about the doping for them, it's about how Armstrong operated and treated people. That's why they are singling him out. For being a ****. I think Vaughters wants to rise above all of that and put the sport first. Everything I've seen about him shows he is not a man who holds grudges and is by nature forward looking.

 

[Bilirubin]

Not a very nice position to have been forced into, is it? So if JV has anyone to be ****ed at, it's not us, not the Andreus, but Lance himself.

But sometimes in life, you've gotta answer some questions with honesty. Life just works that way.

So why did Frankie commit perjury for Lance?

 

[BotanyBay]

I do not know any of the folks you have mentioned except by reading about them. Like I said before I have been divorced before. Mutual friends of a couple will have to choose sides on who they want to remain friends with.

Now Vaughters (who I respect for his intelligence) probably wanted to stay clear of the mud-slinging as he probably has to have dealings with Frankie and wife and with Lance/Bruyneel and their teams.

I know in the spine thread people expected and extraordinary amount from Mr. Vaughters. He is not Jesus, he is only a man.

Choosing sides with friends in a divorce sucks. I was forced to choose family members once. Very bad.

But Vaughters is not Lance's friend. And I think he really feared Lance back then. Everyone did. That fear was valid and understandable. I don;t think it had to do with maintaining diplomacy. But I'm talking now. Lance is on the run, and JV has so little to fear now. He's the guy in a position to give others the "all clear" sign and let everyone come out. And he knows it. He's just comfortable with the calm winds right now.

 

[BotanyBay]

So why did Frankie commit perjury for Lance?

Ask Frankie. You think he's the only one? And I'm not sure he did. I thought the question was "did you ever see Lance do it?" He might have been able to honestly answer that. I've not seen the transcripts in some time.

What was his answer to the hospital room question? I'd need to see the transcript.

Why did Ms McIlvain do it? To keep a job perhaps. To keep a roof over one's head?

But to accuse Lance of anything that year would have been akin to accusing Tiger Woods of being adulterous. Lance's reputation then was rather different than it is today. Tiger's was too.

 

[Bilirubin]

Ask Frankie. You think he's the only one? And I'm not sure he did. I thought the question was "did you ever see Lance do it?" He might have been able to honestly answer that. I've not seen the transcripts in some time.

What was his answer to the hospital room question? I'd need to see the transcript.

They shared a house together in the build up to the 1999 tour.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So why did Frankie commit perjury for Lance?

....and Betsy explained that to you BPC.
If Frankie had been asked did he see LA inject himself he would have said yes - but he did not know what product was in the injection. FA had no problem recounting what he heard.

This thread is about JV and not LA - if you want to keep bringing up the SCA case then do it in one of the appropriate threads.

 

[flicker]

Choosing sides with friends in a divorce sucks. I was forced to choose family members once. Very bad.

But Vaughters is not Lance's friend. And I think he really feared Lance back then. Everyone did. That fear was valid and understandable. I don;t think it had to do with maintaining diplomacy. But I'm talking now. Lance is on the run, and JV has so little to fear now. He's the guy in a position to give others the "all clear" sign and let everyone come out. And he knows it. He's just comfortable with the calm winds right now.

I would have to agree with Bilirubin on this one, for the good of cycling Vaughters will make his decision. I believe he is a moral man and if all that has been said about Lance here is true I would believe that Vaughters will bite his lip and do what is good for the sport.

Many will be dissappointed with Vaughters but I agree with his logic. I also agree with the UCI as the doping culture is so ingrained it is impossible to knock it out in one fell swoop.

When I hear LeMond say things like it is my dream that we can get this guy Armstrong I feel he is being dilusional. The culture is to strong and I feel it is associated with the big sport in Europe. It will take years to clean up the sport and once again I reinterate the clean-up must begin with the Olympics.

 

[ludwig]

I'm sorry, maybe JV is trying to do some good things but he comes off as a hypocrite.

The man came into pro cycling with Slipstream claiming this was a new era and his guys were going to be internally tested and counseled in anti-doping etc. But who does he hire? David Millar and Allen Lim, for starters. Plus a whole slew of ex-CSC and ex-Postals. All of these guys are cycling just as good or better than they did on CSC or Postal/Discovery.

All I can do is lol at those who are claiming Garmin represents some step forward where riders don't have to dope.... What reason is there to think that (outside of CN and VN propagandizing)?

At the time Slipstream was getting going, Joerg Jaksche was looking for a team and wanted to get back into cycling. However, Slipstream would never dream of hiring a cyclist who would sin against omerta. Don't believe me? Check out their roster.

I think part of why Wiggins left Garmin was that he no longer wanted to be associated with the hypocrisy.

At this point, anti-doping is no longer in vogue, so we don't hear much about Slipstream's internal testing (if it even still exists). What we do know is JV is on the money train and that means holding it down for omerta. Fans are gullible, and JV knows how to play the market and simulateously appeal to Americans and Europeans.

 

[Bilirubin]

....and Betsy explained that to you BPC.
If Frankie had been asked did he see LA inject himself he would have said yes - but he did not know what product was in the injection. FA had no problem recounting what he heard.

This thread is about JV and not LA - if you want to keep bringing up the SCA case then do it in one of the appropriate threads.

It hasn't been explained to me. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

That excuse doesn't ring true to me. The idea they would share a house as a training camp before the tour, and be taking the same EPO, yet Frankie wouldn't know what was in Lance's vial, beggars belief. That still sounds like perjury.

I did not bring up the SCA case in this thread. It was used to attack Vaughters. I don't think it's your job to dictate what the topic of the thread is.

 

[flicker]

I'm sorry, maybe JV is trying to do some good things but he comes off as a hypocrite.

The man came into pro cycling with Slipstream claiming this was a new era and his guys were going to be internally tested and counseled in anti-doping etc. But who does he hire? David Millar and Allen Lim, for starters. Plus a whole slew of ex-CSC and ex-Postals. All of these guys are cycling just as good or better than they did on CSC or Postal/Discovery.

All I can do is lol at those who are claiming Garmin represents some step forward where riders don't have to dope.... What reason is there to think that (outside of CN and VN propagandizing)?

At the time Slipstream was getting going, Joerg Jaksche was looking for a team and wanted to get back into cycling. However, Slipstream would never dream of hiring a cyclist who would sin against omerta. Don't believe me? Check out their roster.

I think part of why Wiggins left Garmin was that he no longer wanted to be associated with the hypocrisy.

At this point, anti-doping is no longer in vogue, so we don't hear much about Slipstream's internal testing (if it even still exists). What we do know is JV is on the money train and that means holding it down for omerta. Fans are gullible, and JV knows how to play the market and simulateously appeal to Americans and Europeans.

For the good of cycling please stop.

 

[BotanyBay]

For the good of cycling...

How about we all get off the "for the good of the sport" thing, ok? Human beings don't think of those things. They do what's best for themselves.