JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

[ludwig]

For the good of cycling please stop.

LOL, I've definitely heard that one before. Omerta's strongest argument. Shame everyone into silence "for the good of cycling". Yay for cycling as a healthy lifestyle!

So how about I turn around and ask you this...for the good of cycling...stop characterizing Vaughters and those like him as heroes.....

Look I realize this is sport and entertainment here. But people need to raise their expections a bit. It is possible to expect people in positions of responsibility to do what they say they're going to do.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

We went over this earlier, Ludwig. Here's yesterday's post...

Hope I don't fuel anyone's ire here...



Although you agree with the tenor of my post, I'm not sure you understand the tenor of my post...

I am not asking anyone to make a decision.

I am trying to comprehend how JV can expect to be viewed as anti-doping by anyone when he hasn't lived up to what most people would see as an extremely crucial requirement - honest personal disclosure about doping.

Not naming names, not scr*wing his riders and sponsors, not utterly destroying his carreer. Strictly lending some honesty to a position that would find honesty to be requisite.

I don't give rat's *ss whether he does or not.

All I'm saying is that he fundamentally CANNOT be viewed as who he would like to be viewed as. After reading a few hundred posts, I think that's the point a lot of posters are trying to make.

I'm really too jaded to get rabid over it...

 

[flicker]

LOL, I've definitely heard that one before. Omerta's strongest argument. Shame everyone into silence "for the good of cycling". Yay for cycling as a healthy lifestyle!

So how about I turn around and ask you this...for the good of cycling...stop characterizing Vaughters and those like him as heroes.....

Look I realize this is sport and entertainment here. But people need to raise their expections a bit. It is possible to expect people in positions of responsibility to do what they say they're going to do.

I hear you brother. However the Tea party is on a terror about Obama not fullfilling his election vows. Look who they are bringing to dinner, Sarah Palin.

Sometimes it is not all black and white.

 

[BroDeal]

If that's directed at me, nobody has explained this to me before. But I've seen many people say it's not even really about the doping for them, it's about how Armstrong operated and treated people....

Oh, great. BPC stinking up the joint once again.

Lucky for me, this might get more people to join the No BPCs Club.

One club to rule them all, One club to find them,
One club to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of CN where the Shadows lie.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Uhhh... Not to revel in my ignorance, but what's BPC?

 

[BotanyBay]

For the good of cycling please stop.

You forgot "for the good of the kittens" and "for the good of the cancer kids"

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm sorry, maybe JV is trying to do some good things but he comes off as a hypocrite.

The man came into pro cycling with Slipstream claiming this was a new era and his guys were going to be internally tested and counseled in anti-doping etc. But who does he hire? David Millar and Allen Lim, for starters. Plus a whole slew of ex-CSC and ex-Postals. All of these guys are cycling just as good or better than they did on CSC or Postal/Discovery.

All I can do is lol at those who are claiming Garmin represents some step forward where riders don't have to dope.... What reason is there to think that (outside of CN and VN propagandizing)?

At the time Slipstream was getting going, Joerg Jaksche was looking for a team and wanted to get back into cycling. However, Slipstream would never dream of hiring a cyclist who would sin against omerta. Don't believe me? Check out their roster.

I think part of why Wiggins left Garmin was that he no longer wanted to be associated with the hypocrisy.

At this point, anti-doping is no longer in vogue, so we don't hear much about Slipstream's internal testing (if it even still exists). What we do know is JV is on the money train and that means holding it down for omerta. Fans are gullible, and JV knows how to play the market and simulateously appeal to Americans and Europeans.

Well I am one of those who thinks that - rather than laugh at me maybe you should try and prove it wrong.
I have checked through their roster - through all their support staff and have asked many on the ground about the team, I have not heard a murmur on them unlike almost every other ProTour team.

With the exception of Wiggans none of the riders are better than they were on other teams.
Even Landis said Lim was not doping him - all Lim did regards doping was transportation & logistics.

As for Wiggans - he left for a bigger paycheck, nothing more to it than that.

 

[ludwig]

We went over this earlier, Ludwig. Here's yesterday's post...

JMBeaushrimp, while it would be awesome if JV decided to testify against Armstrong, I'm not inclined to criticize Vaughters for failing to disclose. I think he's already disclosed enough about his own past, whether officially, between the lines, tongue and cheek, or whatever....we all know what cycling was like in JV's era and JV has not given us reason to believe he was exceptional. I think that in terms of being honest about the past, JV deserves more kudos than most.

Where I criticize him is the hypocrisy of the Slipstream/Garmin venture. Back in 06/07, he went through a lot of trouble in conjunction with Velonews to brand his team as the "clean team". This branding effort was largely successful, as evidenced by the legions of believers in fan forums like this. It is disappointing that some people seem to confuse rebranding the sport with reforming the sport.

In hindsight, the rebranding as 'clean' was part of a larger trend in cycling, and Vaughters' role was more as a salesman than an innovator. I think his PM conversation with Andeu was heroic, and perhaps you could describe his work with amateur cyclists as heroic....however there's little that is heroic about his efforts as Garmin's DS. He's doing his job and protecting his financial interests.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

JMBeaushrimp, while it would be awesome if JV decided to testify against Armstrong, I'm not inclined to criticize Vaughters for failing to disclose. I think he's already disclosed enough about his own past, whether officially, between the lines, tongue and cheek, or whatever....we all know what cycling was like in JV's era and JV has not given us reason to believe he was exceptional. I think that in terms of being honest about the past, JV deserves more kudos than most.

Where I criticize him is the hypocrisy of the Slipstream/Garmin venture. Back in 06/07, he went through a lot of trouble in conjunction with Velonews to brand his team as the "clean team". This branding effort was largely successful, as evidenced by the legions of believers in fan forums like this. It is disappointing that some people seem to confuse rebranding the sport with reforming the sport.

In hindsight, the rebranding as 'clean' was part of a larger trend in cycling, and Vaughters' role was more as a salesman than an innovator. I think his PM conversation with Andeu was heroic, and perhaps you could describe his work with amateur cyclists as heroic....however there's little that is heroic about his efforts as Garmin's DS. He's doing his job and protecting his financial interests.

Agreed. I'm just saying that you missed a good session earlier that you would have enjoyed...

Check out pages 17+ on this thread. Lots of good discussion...

 

[ludwig]

Well I am one of those who thinks that - rather than laugh at me maybe you should try and prove it wrong.
I have checked through their roster - through a;ll their support staff and have asked many on the ground about the team, I have not heard a murmur on them unlike almost every other ProTour team.

Ok, so what would you say if I argue that Discovery/Postal is just as clean or cleaner because they hardly ever had any positives?

Given the history of the sport and the excellent reasons to dope, shouldn't the burden of proof rest with those making the assertion of cleanliness? Can you give concrete positive reasons to believe riders are more likely to be clean on Garmin then other teams?

With the exception of Wiggans none of the riders are better than they were on other teams.

CVV and Dan Martin are obvious examples--it wouldn't take much research to find several more. Plus, if you are arguing that guys were doping before Slipstream and not after then how do you explain Zabriskie and CVV's (or any Garmin professional's) performances in comparison to their past?

Even Landis said Lim was not doping him - all Lim did regards doping was transportation & logistics.

So Lim was/is getting paid all that money and knows nothing about the doping? Landis has already confirmed Lim was aware and subsequently lied like the rest of em. What does it matter whether Lim is administering the doping or handling the logistics? He's getting paid tons of money and he was involved in the dirty part of the business.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ok, so what would you say if I argue that Discovery/Postal is just as clean or cleaner because they hardly ever had any positives?

Given the history of the sport and the excellent reasons to dope, shouldn't the burden of proof rest with those making the assertion of cleanliness? Can you give concrete positive reasons to believe riders are more likely to be clean on Garmin then other teams?



CVV and Dan Martin are obvious examples--it wouldn't take much research to find several more. Plus, if you are arguing that guys were doping before Slipstream and not after then how do you explain Zabriskie and CVV's (or any Garmin professional's) performances in comparison to their past?



So Lim was/is getting paid all that money and knows nothing about the doping? Landis has already confirmed Lim was aware and subsequently lied like the rest of em. What does it matter whether Lim is administering the doping or handling the logistics? He's getting paid tons of money and he was involved in the dirty part of the business.

No - I would say Disco/USPS were filthy because I have looked at their setup.
Which is why I asked what you had on Garmin - you have answered by merely offering your opinion, so I will stick with what I hear from those close to the scene.

CVV & Zabriske are nowhere near what they were on other teams, Lim is getting 5 times at TRS what he was on at Garmin.

 

[roundabout]

With all due respect, doc, CVV certainly made a massive jump at Garmin.

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=936

 

[BotanyBay]

Back in 06/07, he went through a lot of trouble in conjunction with Velonews to brand his team as the "clean team". This branding effort was largely successful, as evidenced by the legions of believers in fan forums like this. It is disappointing that some people seem to confuse rebranding the sport with reforming the sport.

Let's look at this more closely. If things were/are improving within the peloton, why did he need to undertake such a PR effort? 99% of the lemmings out there would simply settle for the "no positives" model of success. What did he need to prove? And who'd he need to prove it to? Why the sell?

He didn't need to go to Velonews to sell that to Garmin or Transitions. He could have done that in the PowerPoint deck. So who was he selling (and why)?

The best way to be a clean team is to actually be clean. But can JV actually prevent that? And would he risk throwing it all away if his star rider showed an internal positive result? Would he "manage" that, or would he throw that leader under the bus to preserve the team?

 

[BotanyBay]

With all due respect, doc, CVV certainly made a massive jump at Garmin.

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=936

Oddly enough, his time on Liberty Seguros was one of his worst years (and they had some dang good hot sauce there!)

 

[roundabout]

To be fair he did get injured a lot around that time. After his great ride in support of Heras in 2002 Vuelta i was certainly expecting more from CVV but never thought that he would eventually get 2 top 10 finishes in the Tour.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

With all due respect, doc, CVV certainly made a massive jump at Garmin.

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=936

While I like the CQ rankings - they can only tell part of the story of someones career.
CVV has spent a lot of career on the ground.
Also when he was at USPS he was a domestique while he was a protected rider at Garmin.

 

[roundabout]

Let me guess, you also weren't surprised when he finished in the top 5 at his first attempt to ride for himself.

 

[Martin318is]

Moderators.

Just so you know, the posts were made when it was 1:25am for me - I was asleep. When I went to look at the offending post just now they had been appropriately edited by the person that wrote them.

In the circumstances, if he does it again in this thread I will be adding a day to whatever suspension is handed down.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let me guess, you also weren't surprised when he finished in the top 5 at his first attempt to ride for himself.

No, I was surprised to a point. With CVV I always thought he was a good rider from when I first heard about him. So, I would have put him in the top 10.

Ludwigs post says that he has performed beyond what he should and that makes him suspicious, I don't think his performance was that 'extra terrestrial'.

 

[hrotha]

No, I was surprised to a point. With CVV I always thought he was a good rider from when I first heard about him. So, I would have put him in the top 10.

Ludwigs post says that he has performed beyond what he should and that makes him suspicious, I don't think his performance was that 'extra terrestrial'.

I agree. If anything, the strange thing is that Vande Velde didn't deliver before, when he was always acknowledged to be a huge talent and he rode for some very juiced teams. Even his top 25 performances with CSC weren't thought of as him living up to his potential, but merely as OK Tours.

 

[BotanyBay]

I agree. If anything, the strange thing is that Vande Velde didn't deliver before, when he was always acknowledged to be a huge talent and he rode for some very juiced teams. Even his top 25 performances with CSC weren't thought of as him living up to his potential, but merely as OK Tours.

Brilliant strategy. Take an under-performing clean guy from a dirty team and make him a dirty rider on a clean team. No one would ever suspect a thing!

 

[hrotha]

Brilliant strategy. Take an under-performing clean guy from a dirty team and make him a dirty rider on a clean team. No one would ever suspect a thing!

Joking aside, I very much doubt Vande Velde was clean when he rode for those dirty teams. Now, whether his Garmin performances are believable or not depends on your stance regarding the alleged relative clean-up of cycling. I do believe Vande Velde's underperformance was more of a psychological thing, so if the peloton was indeed cleaner it is plausible for a clean Vande Velde without a psychological block to finally deliver. Lots of if's though.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Joking aside, I very much doubt Vande Velde was clean when he rode for those dirty teams. Now, whether his Garmin performances are believable or not depends on your stance regarding the alleged relative clean-up of cycling. I do believe Vande Velde's underperformance was more of a psychological thing, so if the peloton was indeed cleaner it is plausible for a clean Vande Velde without a psychological block to finally deliver. Lots of if's though.

The bolded is what I've heard from guys on the road. Maybe he's just growing up as a cyclist...

As to his cleanliness, unfortunately you're often painted with the same brush as those whose company you keep. Dirty teams is right...

 

[BotanyBay]

unfortunately you're often painted with the same brush as those whose company you keep.

It's why I was so sad to see young Phinney sign with Darth Vader.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

It's why I was so sad to see young Phinney sign with Darth Vader.

THAT utterly blew my mind!