JV talks, sort of

[manafana]

interesting with the garmin 3 back racing again tommorow.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

interesting with the garmin 3 back racing again tommorow.

Garmin 3 - 7 Tour de France wins = -4 x -3 (because the Clinic is negative, and has been in existence for 3 years...okay, I haven't checked that fact, but Coyle didn't check Armstrong's weight, so...) = 12. The Clinic 12.

Freak out on that.

 

[The Hitch]

Mr Vaughters sir.

Not really the reason you come here for but further to your earlier comment about Richie Porte being offered 800 000 I was wondering if you have any further information on that.

reality is this: as doping scandals drive out what sort of fans/sponsors? those tht find it morally repugnant. so, whos left? those that dont care or dont find it morally repugnant..

Its business. Sponsors leave if they think doping is bad for business.
Or at least in the your hypothetical conversation with "the clinic" that is what "the clinic" would say

I do think however that you are wrong to portray the clinic as one singleminded entity. The observations and responses you attributed to "the clinic" are not the ones I and many others would make

This is just a place where people come to discuss doping. Everyone has their own opinion. I think the opinions of those who are loudest in this thread (like the sniper fella) weighed too heavily on the observations offered in your post by "the clinic".

 

[martinvickers]

Mr Vaughters sir.

Not really the reason you come here for but further to your earlier comment about Richie Porte being offered 800 000 I was wondering if you have any further information on that.




Its business. Sponsors leave if they think doping is bad for business.
Or at least in the your hypothetical conversation with "the clinic" that is what "the clinic" would say

I do think however that you are wrong to portray the clinic as one singleminded entity. The observations and responses you attributed to "the clinic" are not the ones I and many others would make

This is just a place where people come to discuss doping. Everyone has their own opinion. I think the opinions of those who are loudest in this thread (like the sniper fella) weighed too heavily on the observations offered in your post by "the clinic".

The problem there, Hitch, is how rarely the 'saner' members of 'the twelve' disavow the wilder rantings of the, well, the 'less sane'.

Some of the 'cynic' guys are willing to discuss, to listen to an argument, to hope for improvement, to consider other possiblilities.

And some, to quote the film, some just want to watch the world burn. It's very hard to get past that.

And maybe it's just me, but it always seems incredibly rude or discourteous that JV gets quizzed here on his attitude to Sky - they aren't his team, and it's the Clinic's obsession, not his.
Some of the flak he takes for not simply agreeing with the wilder conspiracies on that team is just bonkers.
For ****s sake, Garmin are a more than interesting team, ask him about them.

 

[blackcat]

Garmin 3 - 7 Tour de France wins = -4 x -3 (because the Clinic is negative, and has been in existence for 3 years...okay, I haven't checked that fact, but Coyle didn't check Armstrong's weight, so...) = 12. The Clinic 12.

Freak out on that.

I can deduce from this, Prussian aristocrat Baron von Harold was... one of, perhaps THE first, preparatore

Sea-Monkeys is a brand name for brine shrimp – a group of crustaceans that undergo cryptobiosis – often sold in hatching kits as novelty aquarium pets. Invented in 1957 by Harold von Braunhut, the product was heavily marketed, especially in comic books, and retains a presence in popular culture.

 

[blackcat]

Mr Vaughters sir.

Not really the reason you come here for but further to your earlier comment about Richie Porte being offered 800 000 I was wondering if you have any further information on that.

Porte was fielding offers when CSC could not find a new sponsor, or the CSC and Saxo team. Or Saxo was wavering. circa 2010? or 09. His first GT at the Giro when he was lucky to get into pink, and he won the Romandie prologue, and his back-half split in the Giro prologue that Brookwalter won. Riis did not think he was gonna have a team, and individuals sort to get a new team for the next season. Porte had a second year on his contract (one remaining to go). The second year was when Contador came in and Porte was pretty underwhelming tho, so his market value would have gone down the $hitters for that third season.

 

[AcademyCC]

Just got to thinking, maybe this is the best way to construct my thoughts:

Clinic argument one: The peloton is not any better off, in terms of doping, that it was in pervious years!

My argument: While I am fully aware cycling has a long way to go, my observations, which include: rider behavior, rumors, power outputs, speeds, tactical changes, blood values, testing regimes, and general insider discussion on the matter, would lead me to believe that currently the issue of doping is far less than when I was a professional cyclist.

Clinic argument: OK, but you are financially incentivized to say that!

My retort: When I stopped racing in europe, 2002, leaving a 315,000 Euro contract unpaid in 2003, I started a real estate company. Through sheer luck and my bubbly personality, by the end of 2004, we had 3 full time employees and annual commissions of $800,000(while I didn't get close to all of this, it was more than I made in cycling). This company was the original sponsor of the team, via our ads through 5280 magazine. Currently, I am in enrolled (and accepted) in a top 100 ranked International MBA program, in addition to running the team. My point, rather than comes across as a braggart, is this: while I love bike racing and would love to continue working in professional cycling, it is hardly the only nor the most lucrative option I have on the table. I can take it or leave it. Therefore, I do not think there is merit in the "yeah, but he gets paid to spew this crap!" argument.

Clinic argument 3: Sky is dirty, why don't you just say it!

My retort: While I have little love for team SKY, as I feel they have twisted the transfer market in a way that makes it difficult for smaller teams, such as myself, survive, my observations of them do not lead me to the absolute conclusion that Sky is doping. They may be, but my observations don't make me think it's a certainty. These observations include limited, but still significant, knowledge of their athletes individual physiological parameters. Large knowledge of the pay scale and desirability of their athletes on the transfer market (If Richie Porte is such a donkey, then how come other teams bid 800,000Euro on his contract?). Limited, but significant, knowledge of the vast resources they are able to spend on training camps, additional staffing, testing, and material. Additionally, my observations include their on road and observable data, such as climbing speed.

Clinic retort: OK, but you want Sky's big money in the sport, it lines your pockets!

Me: I don't care and no it doesn't. Although, i do respect the fact that bSkyb is willing to pour resources into cycling. They are not a "hobby" sponsorship. It's real marketing with purpose. Their marketing plan does not fall apart if they are a less winning team, it does fall apart if they have a doping scandal.

Clinic: How can you say things are better with Pat McQuaid still in charge?

My retort: While Pat has good and bad points, the events of recent years have neutered him of power over many items in cycling. I feel that the sport would be better suited with a new face in charge of the sport, but Pat doesn't worry me too much. My observations are that much of the more dictatorial control that the UCI presidency was originally allowed, has been removed.

Clinic: The bio passport doesn't work.

My retort: While it is far from perfect, has conflicts of interest, and is underfunded, my observation is that it has been an effective deterrent and has been effective at targeting athletes. This has lead to a reduction in speeds/power outputs, on the median, in events, such as mountain top finishes, that require o2 based energy. This reduction, while not symbolizing the end of doping and the "foolproof" nature of the bio passport, it does signify the reduced efficacy of o2 vector doping. And, for me, in the end if the doping has very reduced efficacy, enough to allow clean riders to win, then I will call it real and tangible progress. That is my opinion based on limited, but significant, observations.

Clinic: OK, but you have incentive to say that!

Me: see above.

Clinic: We know better than you!

Me: I'm giving you my opinion based on the observations I've made over the past 15 years. Those observations come from being a professional cyclist, running a small teams, running a large team, sitting on the Anti-Doping Funding Committee, being President of the teams' union (AIGCP), and sitting on the Professional Cycling Council, which serves as the board of directors for professional cycling. All of these positions I have recently let go, as I need to focus on my MBA studies. And arguing in the clinic.

Clinic: But you lie and sometimes your arguments don't make sense!

Me: I don't lie here and I am not being deceitful. I have absolutely no reason to do that here. I do not always have perfect arguments, I know. But that's probably one reason I come here. It makes me think about where my arguments are flawed, and if that flaw should make me change my opinion or just change my argument. I am not a greatly detail oriented person, by nature, so sometimes I brush over issues that need to be explored in greater detail. I am aware of that. But don't call it lying or being deceitful. I don't have any motive to do that and lying has proven to be a poor decision from every observation I've made in my life.

Clinic: How can the sport get cleaned up with all these ex-dopers running around?

Me: Thats a tough one. I know my actions and intentions have been noble, but I have no absolute way of proving that. My father, an attorney, used to say to me "how do you prove a man isn't beating his wife?".... There are ways to prove he is beating his wife, but prove he isn't? it's a more complex thing.
I can't speak for every ex-doper, but my opinion is, for the most part, the ones that get caught or admit, are much less dangerous than the ones that never did. And those of us that did get caught or admit keep a pretty close eye on those that never did.

JV

Sorry to quote the whole thing but Jonathan Vaughters is clean. Wake up and smell the coffee. Hes trying hard to placate the doubts of the clinic. Why would he be wasting his time in here making a **** out of himself. Personally (and im not just a JV fanboy) I say I believe him.

 

[observer]

Hi JV,

what do you think the chances are of the puerto blood bags being identified in their entirety? and are there any worried people behind the scenes?

Also, why do you think that cycling is the whipping boy for PED use when it is obviously more widespread?

 

[AcademyCC]

Hi JV,

what do you think the chances are of the puerto blood bags being identified in their entirety? and are there any worried people behind the scenes?

Also, why do you think that cycling is the whipping boy for PED use when it is obviously more widespread?

Im not JV but i can have a good go at answering your questions.

1. No blood bags of any significance will be identified in puerto.
2. Nobody needs to worry because the Spanish government will stop anything before it reaches the press.
3. Cycling is doing more to fight PEDS than any other sport. Compare it to North American sports, what a ****ing mess.

 

[The Hitch]

The problem there, Hitch, is how rarely the 'saner' members of 'the twelve' disavow the wilder rantings of the, well, the 'less sane'.

.

(since maserati is absent this is probably what he would say) I don't see why you think members that go under this the clinic 12 thing (whoever they are, I can only guess a few posters) have any obligation to disavow or distance themselves from other members.

People come here to post their own opinions. If someone else posts something stupid thats not their problem.

That should be the first basic unwritten rule of any internet discussion or even human conversation. Don't hold people responsible for things other people said.

And maybe it's just me, it always seems incredibly rude or discourteous that JV gets quizzed here on his attitude to Sky - they aren't his team, and it's the Clinic's obsession, not his.
Some of the flak he takes for not simply agreeing with the wilder conspiracies on that team is just bonkers.

Since you just blamed the whole clinic for jv getting quizzed on sky I assume you have dozens of posts from dozens of posters to back that up right?

That aside from the fact that sky's hegemony over the most recent tour de France places them directly at the centre of any discussion about whether cycling has cleaned up or not, which does seem to be at the centre of this thread and jv's being here.

 

[blackcat]

Compare it to North American sports, what a far king mess.

correction, any international sport. no strikethru code.

cycling does not have any powerful union like the n american sport. only difference.

and the peripatetic nature of the 200km to finish to 200km finish makes motoman logistics a major risk factor that has skewed perception on cycling.

less rumsas wives when dr galea is happy to fly himself down to florida from montreal with a doctors bad full of actovegin.

only small fry gets caught like odesnik. everyone else gets their goats and escapes.

 

[The Hitch]

Porte was fielding offers when CSC could not find a new sponsor, or the CSC and Saxo team. Or Saxo was wavering. circa 2010? or 09. His first GT at the Giro when he was lucky to get into pink, and he won the Romandie prologue, and his back-half split in the Giro prologue that Brookwalter won. Riis did not think he was gonna have a team, and individuals sort to get a new team for the next season. Porte had a second year on his contract (one remaining to go). The second year was when Contador came in and Porte was pretty underwhelming tho, so his market value would have gone down the $hitters for that third season.

Umm Porte did not win the romandie prologue. And none of this information isnt well known nor does it answer my question of when and who offered Porte 800 000

 

[AcademyCC]

correction, any international sport. no strikethru code.

cycling does not have any powerful union like the n american sport. only difference.

and the peripatetic nature of the 200km to finish to 200km finish makes motoman logistics a major risk factor that has skewed perception on cycling.

less rumsas wives when dr galea is happy to fly himself down to florida from montreal with a doctors bad full of actovegin.

only small fry gets caught like odesnik. everyone else gets their goats and escapes.

I didnt get your point their. Im sure you had one. Apparently they dont test in Montreal at all. Not for anything

 

[blackcat]

Umm Porte did not win the romandie prologue. And none of this information isnt well known nor does it answer my question of when and who offered Porte 800 000

the fricken chrono then

jebus

 

[blackcat]

I didnt get your point their. Im sure you had one. Apparently they dont test in Montreal at all. Not for anything

Tiger Woods' doctor. Galea or whatshisname, from Quebec.

just gives young eldrick vitamins to get him thru all night sessions with cocktail waitresses.

what happens in vegas stays in vegas. unless its an unplanned pregnancy. then you ask shawn kemp for advice.

 

[Ferminal]

What Porte may or may not have got offered in July 2010 doesn't matter so much, as Riis was never going to let him go. GreenEdge went for him hard in 2011 and probably offered more than Sky (no idea what the figure was).

 

[blackcat]

I thought GE were not interested in Porte, with a qualifier, yet.

 

[thehog]

What Porte may or may not have got offered in July 2010 doesn't matter so much, as Riis was never going to let him go. GreenEdge went for him hard in 2011 and probably offered more than Sky (no idea what the figure was).

His manger is Andrew McQuaid.

Won't be testing postive anytime soon

 

[Fatclimber]

(since maserati is absent this is probably what he would say) I don't see why you think members that go under this the clinic 12 thing (whoever they are, I can only guess a few posters) have any obligation to disavow or distance themselves from other members.

People come here to post their own opinions. If someone else posts something stupid thats not their problem.

That should be the first basic unwritten rule of any internet discussion or even human conversation. Don't hold people responsible for things other people said.




Since you just blamed the whole clinic for jv getting quizzed on sky I assume you have dozens of posts from dozens of posters to back that up right?

That aside from the fact that sky's hegemony over the most recent tour de France places them directly at the centre of any discussion about whether cycling has cleaned up or not, which does seem to be at the centre of this thread and jv's being here.

That and the fact that the TDF winner of Sky is an ex-member of JV's team. And this is the Clinic. And JV is here of his own volition.

Maybe somebody could invite JV to the PRR forum for some non-doping discussion if they're feeling a little jealous of his time spent here.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Tiger Woods' doctor. Galea or whatshisname, from Quebec.

Just for the record, the guy finally went to prison for transporting controlled substances internationally.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Older people (like most DS's) are not very internet-savvy.

Take that a bit further, most of bigger money cycling isn't Internet savvy.

I'll give it to JV1973, that last post seemed honest to me.

As posted on some other site, watching the UCI is quite a bit like Kremlinology.

 

[JV1973]

correction, any international sport. no strikethru code.

cycling does not have any powerful union like the n american sport. only difference.

and the peripatetic nature of the 200km to finish to 200km finish makes motoman logistics a major risk factor that has skewed perception on cycling.

less rumsas wives when dr galea is happy to fly himself down to florida from montreal with a doctors bad full of actovegin.

only small fry gets caught like odesnik. everyone else gets their goats and escapes.

again, i am really starting to like mr blackcat.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

again, i am really starting to like mr blackcat.

The blackcat vortex strikes

 

[Krebs cycle]

enough to allow clean riders to win

I think this is probably the biggest point of debate and reason for so much disagreement.

The thing is though, JV isn't the only one saying this. Lots of people connected with elite cycling are saying it. In particular Aldo Sassi spoke about it before he passed away. From what I've heard (ie: from people that have worked with Aldo Sassi and spent time at the Mapei Lab), the testing that went on there was very stringent. Sassi wanted no part in doping and he did not want to coach any dopers. They were even conducting Hbmass measures to make certain their riders were not doping. Once a doper does not mean always a doper and so for example, it is likely that Basso came back clean since this was a condition of working with Sassi.

Sassi has stated that the best cyclists in the world are capable of sustaining about 6.1 w/kg on big climbs (35-40min) and above this is "implausible".

So when values like 5.8 or 6.0w/kg start floating around for Froome and Wiggins which clearly does NOT fit with implausibility, this justifies the opinion that clean cyclists are now capable of winning. edit: it does not make the claim that Froome and/or Wiggins are clean, it just says that they could be.

But this isn't good enough for "the clinic 12". They have already concluded that Sky are doping, but instead of fitting the conclusion to the numbers, they try to fit the numbers to the conclusion. This is what creates so much disagreement. But just as you can't polish a turd, no matter how hard they try, they can't magically inflate 5.8-6.0 w/kg into 6.2-6.4w/kg with their ridiculous theories regarding human physiology and performance or their assumption and error riddled estimations and bodgey calculations. No matter how hard they try, they haven't got any data which says that Wiggins or Froome's absolute best clean numbers are 5.4-5.6 w/kg.

It's not a disagreement of opinion about the science, most of the time they're just wrong.

 

[Ferminal]

Here we go again?

How does the 2nd most talented rider in the pack who is clean beat the most talented rider who is using EPO and blood transfusions?

Who knows if this is actually the case, but it's not hard to see how people have trouble with the idea of believing Vincenzo Nibali, Christopher Froome, Bradley Wiggins, Joaquin Rodriguez, Alberto Contador, Alejandro Valverde, Ryder Hesjedal are all not only clean, but are beating dopers.