-
The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Get Real
Who are you trying to kid ?? the worlds largest Cycling Newspaper / Magazine and you say no journalists are aware of the Clinic !
Lance's trolls, Joe Papp, Sky's correlating PR announcements....all in the Clinic...
JV1973 said:
Who are you trying to kid ?? the worlds largest Cycling Newspaper / Magazine and you say no journalists are aware of the Clinic !
Lance's trolls, Joe Papp, Sky's correlating PR announcements....all in the Clinic...
martinvickers said:
We'll send over the AFL allstars to say it to you. Brendan Fevola is well known for his lovely etiquette in Irish pubs on Irish soil. I know who will be piping down tough guy.
When the Irish remove McQuad get back to us. Till then how about throwing some support to Kimmmage? Or are you part of the McQuack fan base?
BTW England is on an Island as much as Ireland is. Ireland is the size of what? Tasmania? Real impressive. Real impressive. I'm sure you scared off the American with that post.
hhahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaah OMG. Sheer, deranged, macho genius!! AFL. Men in tight shorts. Camp. coooeeeee duckie throw us the ball.Galic Ho said:We'll send over the AFL allstars to say it to you. Brendan Fevola is well known for his lovely etiquette in Irish pubs on Irish soil. I know who will be piping down tough guy.
When the Irish remove McQuad get back to us. Till then how about throwing some support to Kimmmage? Or are you part of the McQuack fan base?
BTW England is on an Island as much as Ireland is. Ireland is the size of what? Tasmania? Real impressive. Real impressive. I'm sure you scared off the American with that post.
martinvickers
BANNED
Galic Ho said:We'll send over the AFL allstars to say it to you. Brendan Fevola is well known for his lovely etiquette in Irish pubs on Irish soil. I know who will be piping down tough guy.
When the Irish remove McQuad get back to us. Till then how about throwing some support to Kimmmage? Or are you part of the McQuack fan base?
BTW England is on an Island as much as Ireland is. Ireland is the size of what? Tasmania? Real impressive. Real impressive. I'm sure you scared off the American with that post.
Stay off the drink, Ho.
England is not an Island - it has land borders, with Wales and Scotland. Great Britain is an island. You need to be VERY stupid not to know that. But then, we knew that...
As for Fevola, grabbing a barman is not exactly the height of manliness. But hey, whatever makes you feel proud...
JV
You've talked a lot about VAMs, average watts over long distances, GT climbing speeds, cols, etc.
What do you think of the other types of winner.
For example Le Puncheurs and pure sprinters.
Some of the biggest names (and money-makers) in the sport are not GT hopefulls.
Do you have ways of measuring performance in these areas, to see the trend over the last few years?
Do you feel there is a chance that Farrar is being cheated?, or are you content in this area also?
You've talked a lot about VAMs, average watts over long distances, GT climbing speeds, cols, etc.
What do you think of the other types of winner.
For example Le Puncheurs and pure sprinters.
Some of the biggest names (and money-makers) in the sport are not GT hopefulls.
Do you have ways of measuring performance in these areas, to see the trend over the last few years?
Do you feel there is a chance that Farrar is being cheated?, or are you content in this area also?
xcleigh said:
Ask the Irish why the Gaelic football cross AFL national comp stopped champ? Aussie AFL weaklings you're knocking started fights every year and thrashed the crap out of the Irish. But by all means big man, you talk your chances up. Anyone of those men would hit you in the head once and your jaw would break. They aren't cyclists. They have considerable upper body strength coupled with strong aerobic engines meaning they can run and tackle all day long. Of all the football codes in the world, the last guys you would pick a fight with and have a chance of winning is an AFL player. They have the strength, speed and stamina to fight hard continuously. No other code does. Soccer players lack upper body mass. Rugby, Union and NFL are all too slow and lack endurance. AFL has none of these weaknesses. They are monsters. They are the fittest football players no exception. But you keep big noting yourself, that will go far. I'd also suggest staying away from any southern Australian states. Talking like that won't end well for you.
Martinvickers...no you are right about Fevola. I was just suggesting that Irishmen in a bar are not a threat to anyone who can fight. Their reputation is diminished next to other nationalities. Take any Bostonian of Irish descent. Much better fighter. Your comment was to an American who could be of that stock. BTW I didn't see anyone step in and deal with Fevola did you?
I also never stated England was an island. Don't be absurd. Quote what I wrote. I said it it part of an island, ergo England, Scotland and Wales are all part of one land mass, a very small land mass that IS and island. By your definition Ireland isn't an island either as it shares borders with another country. Forgetting Northern Ireland? Part of Great Britain isn't it? Stretch the definition all you want, the land mass is an island. Who gives a damn how many countries inhabit it? Oh my bad...an Irishman talking about England. Carry on then. Carry on.
Galic Ho said:
Galic Ho you crack me up, this the AFL anthem by any chance?
I don't want no seven stone weakling
Or a boy who thinks he's a girl
I'm after a hunk of a guy
An experienced man of the world
There ain't no way that I'll make do
With anything less than I'm used to
If I have a man tonight
He's gotta be right, right, right
*So Macho
He's got to be
So Macho
He's got to be big and strong enough
to turn me on
He's got to have, big blue eyes
Be able to satisfy
He's got to be big and strong enough
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net ]
to turn me on
I'm tired of taking the lead
I want a man who will dominate me
Someone who will love and protect me
And take care of my every need
Now I don't mean to be personal
But a guy like that's more preferable
In my humble point of view
Than any of you
*Repeat
(And on, and on, and on)
Macho man
-Ooh I'm in need of a
Macho man
-Ooh I'm in need of a man...
He's got to be...
Galic Ho said:
Err...no, Northern Island is not part of Great Britain.
Bearing in mind that there was a bloody terrorist war that only ended 9 years ago, you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to know that.
Just got to thinking, maybe this is the best way to construct my thoughts:
Clinic argument one: The peloton is not any better off, in terms of doping, that it was in pervious years!
My argument: While I am fully aware cycling has a long way to go, my observations, which include: rider behavior, rumors, power outputs, speeds, tactical changes, blood values, testing regimes, and general insider discussion on the matter, would lead me to believe that currently the issue of doping is far less than when I was a professional cyclist.
Clinic argument: OK, but you are financially incentivized to say that!
My retort: When I stopped racing in europe, 2002, leaving a 315,000 Euro contract unpaid in 2003, I started a real estate company. Through sheer luck and my bubbly personality, by the end of 2004, we had 3 full time employees and annual commissions of $800,000(while I didn't get close to all of this, it was more than I made in cycling). This company was the original sponsor of the team, via our ads through 5280 magazine. Currently, I am in enrolled (and accepted) in a top 100 ranked International MBA program, in addition to running the team. My point, rather than comes across as a braggart, is this: while I love bike racing and would love to continue working in professional cycling, it is hardly the only nor the most lucrative option I have on the table. I can take it or leave it. Therefore, I do not think there is merit in the "yeah, but he gets paid to spew this crap!" argument.
Clinic argument 3: Sky is dirty, why don't you just say it!
My retort: While I have little love for team SKY, as I feel they have twisted the transfer market in a way that makes it difficult for smaller teams, such as myself, survive, my observations of them do not lead me to the absolute conclusion that Sky is doping. They may be, but my observations don't make me think it's a certainty. These observations include limited, but still significant, knowledge of their athletes individual physiological parameters. Large knowledge of the pay scale and desirability of their athletes on the transfer market (If Richie Porte is such a donkey, then how come other teams bid 800,000Euro on his contract?). Limited, but significant, knowledge of the vast resources they are able to spend on training camps, additional staffing, testing, and material. Additionally, my observations include their on road and observable data, such as climbing speed.
Clinic retort: OK, but you want Sky's big money in the sport, it lines your pockets!
Me: I don't care and no it doesn't. Although, i do respect the fact that bSkyb is willing to pour resources into cycling. They are not a "hobby" sponsorship. It's real marketing with purpose. Their marketing plan does not fall apart if they are a less winning team, it does fall apart if they have a doping scandal.
Clinic: How can you say things are better with Pat McQuaid still in charge?
My retort: While Pat has good and bad points, the events of recent years have neutered him of power over many items in cycling. I feel that the sport would be better suited with a new face in charge of the sport, but Pat doesn't worry me too much. My observations are that much of the more dictatorial control that the UCI presidency was originally allowed, has been removed.
Clinic: The bio passport doesn't work.
My retort: While it is far from perfect, has conflicts of interest, and is underfunded, my observation is that it has been an effective deterrent and has been effective at targeting athletes. This has lead to a reduction in speeds/power outputs, on the median, in events, such as mountain top finishes, that require o2 based energy. This reduction, while not symbolizing the end of doping and the "foolproof" nature of the bio passport, it does signify the reduced efficacy of o2 vector doping. And, for me, in the end if the doping has very reduced efficacy, enough to allow clean riders to win, then I will call it real and tangible progress. That is my opinion based on limited, but significant, observations.
Clinic: OK, but you have incentive to say that!
Me: see above.
Clinic: We know better than you!
Me: I'm giving you my opinion based on the observations I've made over the past 15 years. Those observations come from being a professional cyclist, running a small teams, running a large team, sitting on the Anti-Doping Funding Committee, being President of the teams' union (AIGCP), and sitting on the Professional Cycling Council, which serves as the board of directors for professional cycling. All of these positions I have recently let go, as I need to focus on my MBA studies. And arguing in the clinic.
Clinic: But you lie and sometimes your arguments don't make sense!
Me: I don't lie here and I am not being deceitful. I have absolutely no reason to do that here. I do not always have perfect arguments, I know. But that's probably one reason I come here. It makes me think about where my arguments are flawed, and if that flaw should make me change my opinion or just change my argument. I am not a greatly detail oriented person, by nature, so sometimes I brush over issues that need to be explored in greater detail. I am aware of that. But don't call it lying or being deceitful. I don't have any motive to do that and lying has proven to be a poor decision from every observation I've made in my life.
Clinic: How can the sport get cleaned up with all these ex-dopers running around?
Me: Thats a tough one. I know my actions and intentions have been noble, but I have no absolute way of proving that. My father, an attorney, used to say to me "how do you prove a man isn't beating his wife?".... There are ways to prove he is beating his wife, but prove he isn't? it's a more complex thing.
I can't speak for every ex-doper, but my opinion is, for the most part, the ones that get caught or admit, are much less dangerous than the ones that never did. And those of us that did get caught or admit keep a pretty close eye on those that never did.
JV
Clinic argument one: The peloton is not any better off, in terms of doping, that it was in pervious years!
My argument: While I am fully aware cycling has a long way to go, my observations, which include: rider behavior, rumors, power outputs, speeds, tactical changes, blood values, testing regimes, and general insider discussion on the matter, would lead me to believe that currently the issue of doping is far less than when I was a professional cyclist.
Clinic argument: OK, but you are financially incentivized to say that!
My retort: When I stopped racing in europe, 2002, leaving a 315,000 Euro contract unpaid in 2003, I started a real estate company. Through sheer luck and my bubbly personality, by the end of 2004, we had 3 full time employees and annual commissions of $800,000(while I didn't get close to all of this, it was more than I made in cycling). This company was the original sponsor of the team, via our ads through 5280 magazine. Currently, I am in enrolled (and accepted) in a top 100 ranked International MBA program, in addition to running the team. My point, rather than comes across as a braggart, is this: while I love bike racing and would love to continue working in professional cycling, it is hardly the only nor the most lucrative option I have on the table. I can take it or leave it. Therefore, I do not think there is merit in the "yeah, but he gets paid to spew this crap!" argument.
Clinic argument 3: Sky is dirty, why don't you just say it!
My retort: While I have little love for team SKY, as I feel they have twisted the transfer market in a way that makes it difficult for smaller teams, such as myself, survive, my observations of them do not lead me to the absolute conclusion that Sky is doping. They may be, but my observations don't make me think it's a certainty. These observations include limited, but still significant, knowledge of their athletes individual physiological parameters. Large knowledge of the pay scale and desirability of their athletes on the transfer market (If Richie Porte is such a donkey, then how come other teams bid 800,000Euro on his contract?). Limited, but significant, knowledge of the vast resources they are able to spend on training camps, additional staffing, testing, and material. Additionally, my observations include their on road and observable data, such as climbing speed.
Clinic retort: OK, but you want Sky's big money in the sport, it lines your pockets!
Me: I don't care and no it doesn't. Although, i do respect the fact that bSkyb is willing to pour resources into cycling. They are not a "hobby" sponsorship. It's real marketing with purpose. Their marketing plan does not fall apart if they are a less winning team, it does fall apart if they have a doping scandal.
Clinic: How can you say things are better with Pat McQuaid still in charge?
My retort: While Pat has good and bad points, the events of recent years have neutered him of power over many items in cycling. I feel that the sport would be better suited with a new face in charge of the sport, but Pat doesn't worry me too much. My observations are that much of the more dictatorial control that the UCI presidency was originally allowed, has been removed.
Clinic: The bio passport doesn't work.
My retort: While it is far from perfect, has conflicts of interest, and is underfunded, my observation is that it has been an effective deterrent and has been effective at targeting athletes. This has lead to a reduction in speeds/power outputs, on the median, in events, such as mountain top finishes, that require o2 based energy. This reduction, while not symbolizing the end of doping and the "foolproof" nature of the bio passport, it does signify the reduced efficacy of o2 vector doping. And, for me, in the end if the doping has very reduced efficacy, enough to allow clean riders to win, then I will call it real and tangible progress. That is my opinion based on limited, but significant, observations.
Clinic: OK, but you have incentive to say that!
Me: see above.
Clinic: We know better than you!
Me: I'm giving you my opinion based on the observations I've made over the past 15 years. Those observations come from being a professional cyclist, running a small teams, running a large team, sitting on the Anti-Doping Funding Committee, being President of the teams' union (AIGCP), and sitting on the Professional Cycling Council, which serves as the board of directors for professional cycling. All of these positions I have recently let go, as I need to focus on my MBA studies. And arguing in the clinic.
Clinic: But you lie and sometimes your arguments don't make sense!
Me: I don't lie here and I am not being deceitful. I have absolutely no reason to do that here. I do not always have perfect arguments, I know. But that's probably one reason I come here. It makes me think about where my arguments are flawed, and if that flaw should make me change my opinion or just change my argument. I am not a greatly detail oriented person, by nature, so sometimes I brush over issues that need to be explored in greater detail. I am aware of that. But don't call it lying or being deceitful. I don't have any motive to do that and lying has proven to be a poor decision from every observation I've made in my life.
Clinic: How can the sport get cleaned up with all these ex-dopers running around?
Me: Thats a tough one. I know my actions and intentions have been noble, but I have no absolute way of proving that. My father, an attorney, used to say to me "how do you prove a man isn't beating his wife?".... There are ways to prove he is beating his wife, but prove he isn't? it's a more complex thing.
I can't speak for every ex-doper, but my opinion is, for the most part, the ones that get caught or admit, are much less dangerous than the ones that never did. And those of us that did get caught or admit keep a pretty close eye on those that never did.
JV
Jonathan
Thanks for your reply to my earlier question about whether every manager and rider in the pro tour is hanging off every word of 'The Clinic 12' (whoever the F they are)
With regards to the fervent and highly polarised discussion of Sky, can I ask whether you think there is anything Brailsford could do or should have done to counter the accusations, especially bearing in mind that they are perception based, rather than fact based?
Thanks for your reply to my earlier question about whether every manager and rider in the pro tour is hanging off every word of 'The Clinic 12' (whoever the F they are)
With regards to the fervent and highly polarised discussion of Sky, can I ask whether you think there is anything Brailsford could do or should have done to counter the accusations, especially bearing in mind that they are perception based, rather than fact based?
JV1973 said:
I never quote long posts like this but this has to be the best post I've seen ever here or elsewhere, should be stickied! Thank you, really.
JV1973 said:
Rebutle: Don't you think this is why bskyb have a vested interest in a cleaner than clean image in the sport?
Don't you also think that bSkyb have a lot of power in the media to control and uphold those financial interests in promting a clean image in cycling?
Isnt this why Brailsford and Wiggins began a no tolerance to doping policy to uphold the clean image, by using the media?
Rebutle: An observation that could be due to a clean image being presented?
Rebutle: It is very difficult to prove that someone isn't doping, and this is exactly why it is doable to defraud.
The fraud triangle is as follows:
Opportunity - Pressure - Rationalisation.
On your second point, if clinic sceptics are true and Sky are doping ahead of the game, then their denials will make them one to watch. Isn't this what the clinic is doing, in the absence of a probing press?
........
Gotta wonder why JV is in the Clinic when MSR is on? Tough day for Garmin. If Ciolek had a chance I like to think Farrar was in with a shot. I'll read the latest replies later. Farrar has my sympathy. Good rider. One of the few I'd trust based on image alone.
JV1973 said:
I think this is probably the biggest point of debate and reason for so much disagreement.
thehog
BANNED
Ferminal said:
Problem being. For 'one off riders' the clean may have a chance against a slightly watered down doper.
But.
When the whole team is doping to the "accepted" level.
No one stands a chance.
This is what we are seeing.
And you know that because?
PS - Following your edit above (note to self, don't follow netiquette and quote the message above the next time) I see you're no longer "declaring" that Sky are doping, interesting...now it's just what "we" (well "you" for sure, can't see how you can talk for others?) are seeing. That you would be seeing it and not me (in spite of my fervent following of cycling since 04/1978) I can accept but why you would see that and not JV I'm not so sure...and yes he addressed the "bias" question above.
PS - Following your edit above (note to self, don't follow netiquette and quote the message above the next time) I see you're no longer "declaring" that Sky are doping, interesting...now it's just what "we" (well "you" for sure, can't see how you can talk for others?) are seeing. That you would be seeing it and not me (in spite of my fervent following of cycling since 04/1978) I can accept but why you would see that and not JV I'm not so sure...and yes he addressed the "bias" question above.
It is a master stroke that bSkyb sponsored a professional cycling team. They have media control and the means to present a clean image. I don't see much media probing of team SKY post Lance, a little glaring of a sport with such a bad reputation? And with PR management gaffs.
It is impossible to prove that a team is not doping, however it is possible to prove they are doping, but is easy to defraud.
Another good timing was the London Olympics, because bSkyb are going to want a larger audiance for sponsoring a cycling team, to get good returns on their profits.
In short Lance had a survival from cancer story and Wiggins has the London Olympics....perfect timing....master stroke.
As for confessed dopers being less dangerous than denial dopers, well if sky are doping ahead of the game? then they are the ones to watch as "clean" is their speciality.
It is impossible to prove that a team is not doping, however it is possible to prove they are doping, but is easy to defraud.
Another good timing was the London Olympics, because bSkyb are going to want a larger audiance for sponsoring a cycling team, to get good returns on their profits.
In short Lance had a survival from cancer story and Wiggins has the London Olympics....perfect timing....master stroke.
As for confessed dopers being less dangerous than denial dopers, well if sky are doping ahead of the game? then they are the ones to watch as "clean" is their speciality.
JV1973 said:
I have a question, which is the major issue I have with your approach. You are a strange cat. The number of people in the situation you were in who would walk away from a half mil a year contract is very small. You have repeatedly said that you can make more money elsewhere, so my impression is that once you finish your MBA, you will use that, your experience running Slipstream, and the contacts made while courting sponsors to land a lucrative corporate gig. What happens when you are gone?
You have constructed a doping policy based on a combination of altruism and secrecy, often displaying a contempt for giving details to schmucks like us and other fans who "don't need to know." Because of the precarious nature of a sport reliant on sponsorship, it is understandable to feel the the urge to keep doping details confined to organizations you have described as being capable of making a difference; but what happens when there are fewer altruists and the secrecy allows the old schoolers to go back to the methods that served them well when they were riders?
An unrelated observation I have is that the sport through the UCI has created a situation that may be more sordid than the free-for-all doping that preceeded it. It appears to me that the UCI has used its power to scapegoat a few riders as a means to goad the others into changing their behavior. All law enforcement has some element of this, but a fair system strives to apply the laws evenly and punishment with proportional measure to the crime committed, taking into account how extraordinary the convicted's behavior was. Cycling, on the other hand, has utterly destroyed people like Landis and Ricco for doing no more than what their colleagues were doing.
To make the situation sleazier, the riders who are left publicly heap scorn on the Landises and the Riccos even though the only difference between them or the teammates they embrace is they did not draw the short straw when it came time for the UCI to decide who to make an example. Even worse, questions swirl around why some were chosen for the scarlet letter and others were not. The stink of corruption wafts off the methods used to clean up the sport. In many ways the cure is worse than the disease. There is some measure of fairness in turning a blind eye to doping and letting the riders do what they are willing to do--at least there is compared to venal men in the UCI deciding which riders should be burnt at the stake and which are too valuable to not be given a second or third chance before cracking down on them or left alone altogether.
The ends resemble the means. This sort of corruption will not end well.
JV congrats on comment #3252 , it shows that you have put a lot of thought into the reply !
Why you would bother , after being bathed in Sewerage , by some during the past week , amazes me . Some of the derision sent your way was totally over the top and demonstrated a lack of their interlect .
Could it be that you think that those in the " Clinic " , could if they " Chose " , be a force that could influence " Change "?
What would you suggest those in the " clinic " could do and how could they organise to influence other Team Owners/ Managers to follow your recent example here ?
@cycling chic , JV said he does not discuss the " clinic " with others , NOT what you implied ! My thought is most of the Team Owners/Managers , choose to view and refrain from participation , due to the twisting of any thoughts they might relate .
Finding Sponsors for their Teams is hard enough , without seeing their credibility , called into question , by those hiding behind an unregistered IP address and nickname !
It reflects badly on those who question JV's motives , since 99% of those visiting here , wish to learn , but then there is always a " rotton apple in a barrel "! Reminds me of a comment , here ,yesterday about a " barrel of monkeys "!
BTW , did you watch the Milano-San remo on TV or Computer Stream & what were your thoughts about the Race today as compared to previous years . Am i right in thinking that Ciolek is with " Team MTN " , how will this affect their " Wild Card Entries "?
Why you would bother , after being bathed in Sewerage , by some during the past week , amazes me . Some of the derision sent your way was totally over the top and demonstrated a lack of their interlect .
Could it be that you think that those in the " Clinic " , could if they " Chose " , be a force that could influence " Change "?
What would you suggest those in the " clinic " could do and how could they organise to influence other Team Owners/ Managers to follow your recent example here ?
@cycling chic , JV said he does not discuss the " clinic " with others , NOT what you implied ! My thought is most of the Team Owners/Managers , choose to view and refrain from participation , due to the twisting of any thoughts they might relate .
Finding Sponsors for their Teams is hard enough , without seeing their credibility , called into question , by those hiding behind an unregistered IP address and nickname !
It reflects badly on those who question JV's motives , since 99% of those visiting here , wish to learn , but then there is always a " rotton apple in a barrel "! Reminds me of a comment , here ,yesterday about a " barrel of monkeys "!
BTW , did you watch the Milano-San remo on TV or Computer Stream & what were your thoughts about the Race today as compared to previous years . Am i right in thinking that Ciolek is with " Team MTN " , how will this affect their " Wild Card Entries "?
skippy said:
most of the Clinic 12 do know and remember the various iterations of Race Radio, Festina Girl, and their own handles on differing fora.
Most have been there for a decade or so.
if Times can recognise the element of influence Race Radio, Festina Girl, The Cycling Overlord, had on twitter, then there must be merit in folks asserting their belief they are full of receiving BS from the sport, and its administrators.
I knew of Rasmussen being targeted before the 07 Tour. It was merely a coincidence he got yellow. I spoke to Albergotti when he wanted a quasi source of mine. I would not call her a source.
Betsy, was, and is, a repository and clearing house for LA centric mail and media.
Vaughters has been caught in many (white?) lies. But everyone here is willing to extend him the benefit of any skepticism doubts.
and I hear nothing but scorn on Ricco and Landis.
the rigour of individuals' assessment and interpretation of validity, is certainly lacking. it is more malleable and influence by personal emotions than any overarching standard.
BroDeal said:
and a tenet of justice is universal application. scapegoats anathema.
which is a point that should be acknowledge by all here. an appeal to this current MO of instrumental means for ends, is gonna be inverted in its base aims.
I have done too much good for too many people. Ring a bell?
Hmmmm... Still waiting for our illustrious friend to post a reply to my post... obviously ex-pro riders hit too near the knuckle...(?) JV... over to you...
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Paris - Roubaix 2024, one day monument, April 7- Started by Dreginald
- Replies: 2K
-
-
Tour of the Alps 2024 (April 15 - 19)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 359
-
-
Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2024 (March 18-24)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 2K
-
De Ronde van Vlaanderen (270.8 km), 2024 March 31 (Sunday)- Started by Netserk
- Replies: 1K
Latest posts
-
-
-
Liege Bastogne Liege-7 hour monument, Sunday, April 21, 2024- Latest: gregrowlerson
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram