JV talks, sort of

[the big ring]

I can't find the original, but here is a copy

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/383257/landis-stage-17-explained-by-dr-allen-lim

Just started reading, thanks. Curious to see the climbing values (390W = ride away from the peloton) are all 10% below the climbing values thrown around for this year's tour (420W = sitting on M Roger's wheel).

 

[Runitout]

....


Which for me is the telling thing. All the guys I had issues with at Garmin. All of them, note, not just one, all of them are gone. And JV has been open about most of them. White...on the spot dismissal for Del Moral and Trent Lowe incident. Not an exception. Now how would the same deal have played out at Sky? Brailsford would make an excuse. Lim? One season, gone the next. Wiggins...same deal. Cash in on his 'improvement.' I can handle that. Money is a nice deal.

JV has been far from open about that incident.

For JV to be open about it, he'd have to disclose the communications between Kimmage and himself in the period prior to the sacking of White; he'd have to explain why White was fired for conduct in April 2009 said to relate to a policy that was instituted two months later.

He'd also have to explain why he claimed not to know about a medical visit arranged by his head DS, whose results were sent to his doctor and himself, and whose treatment of the rider in question his team presumably paid for.

He'd have to say whether he has paid Svein Tuft and Trent Lowe yet (S acking them for turning up to a training camp. Nice).

I'd also like to see the TUE list of his riders. A bit of transparency like that, and I'll believe he's more about clean cycling than PR.

I like the fact that JV promotes clean cycling, but I get the impression that the greatest sin you can commit against him is to give him bad publicity.

 

[Carstenbf]

Another example you may be aware of was provided at the Olympics, when John Leonard, a U.S. Olympic official, called into question the performance of Ye Shiwen, a 16 year old Chinese swimmer who won the women’s 400 IM with a final freestyle leg faster than Ryan Lochte’s. Leonard emphasized that he was not criticizing the entire Chinese program—he contrasted Ye with Sun Yang, a record-smashing male swimmer whose performances he had no problem with—but based his remarks solely on the fact that Ye did not exhibit a “normal progression” in her athletic accomplishments. This is basically the same criticism the Clinic is making of Wiggins.

Well, IMO not exactly doing this place any favors, as I find these accusations extremely unfair, and totally baseless. A shining example of anglophile bias.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Not sure why some justified critical comments by tyler's twin have been removed from the thread (at least I can't seem to find them anymore), to which JV responded with something like "you self-righteous bucklehead".
For a sec I thought I heard wiggins talking there.
Anyway, both posts have mysteriously vanished.

REally?

How about "knucklehead" instead? JV's post is here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=981607&postcount=167

There are several posts by Tyler's Twin, I don't really know which one is being referred to.

Susan

 

[sniper]

REally?

How about "knucklehead" instead? JV's post is here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=981607&postcount=167

There are several posts by Tyler's Twin, I don't really know which one is being referred to.

Susan

thanks Susan, probably my bad.

to be sure, JV of course has the right to defend himself verbally on here. On the other hand, he should not forget too easily that we, the fans that is, are the ones who pay his bills. Without fans no salary for JV. And like taxpayers, we have the right to know what happens to our investment.
I'm saying this just to put all our skepticism, criticism and cynicism in the right perspective, not to deprive JV of the right to defend himself.

That said, I do feel JV is a pioneer, if not wrt clean cycling, then at least to the extent that he's the first DS to really put effort into answering difficult questions and discussing the issue of doping directly with the skeptical fans (the support of whom he could easily live without). Like a politician going out into the villages to talk with the voters in person (no puns intended). And all that effort, even though we clinicians are actually but a small minority; JV could of course do very well without our support.

 

[Willy_Voet]

^^^

LOL, the "shareholder" argument. Get real.

 

[Race Radio]

Just started reading, thanks. Curious to see the climbing values (390W = ride away from the peloton) are all 10% below the climbing values thrown around for this year's tour (420W = sitting on M Roger's wheel).

Because one is measured by a powermeter and the other is a calculation.

Going full gas on a final Jani's srm had him at 351 for 17 minutes.

 

[sashimono]

Thanks for the admission JV.

Unfortunately you only get 8 minutes of fame for that. If you want the other 7 minutes, you need to write something less contrived, less sentimental, and more specific.

 

[D-Queued]

Thanks for the admission JV.

Unfortunately you only get 8 minutes of fame for that. If you want the other 7 minutes, you need to write something less contrived, less sentimental, and more specific.

In all fairness, and without disrespect, JV has already had his 15 minutes.

These are bonus points.

Dave.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Because one is measured by a powermeter and the other is a calculation.

Going full gas on a final Jani's srm had him at 351 for 17 minutes.

Wich one is bad at maths? Basso or Lim? Not even mentioning the being in slipstream like Basso clearly was.

 

[steevo]

People, please stop comparing absolute power numbers.
Floyd vs Froome, there is how much of a weight disparity between
the two?
SRM's read lower than power taps by a few percent.

Go w/k or nothing.

 

[sniper]

^^^

LOL, the "shareholder" argument. Get real.

no, not the shareholder argument.
shareholders you can't do without.
JV can do perfectly without the clinic.

well, perhaps fans as a whole, yeah, shareholders you could say, in as far as pro-cyclists wouldn't have anything to eat without fans.
but as I said, clinicians constitute but a microscopic part of cycling fans.

in any case, you either assume some form of shareholdership, or you choose to completey shut up.

 

[Race Radio]

Wich one is bad at maths? Basso or Lim? Not even mentioning the being in slipstream like Basso clearly was.

Floyd did 395 watts for 37 minutes on 1 of 4 climbs.....did Basso, or any other rider, do this in any climb of this years Tour? Floyd also climbed Alp d'huez in 38:34. Last year Contador rode 41:30. In 1997 over 60 riders broke 45 minutes. Nothing like that has happened since.

JV's point that the sport as a whole is much cleaner is supported by the outputs and climbing times of the Pro Peloton

 

[roundabout]

I would say Schleck on the Izoard, Contador on the Telegraphe and perhaps Evans on the Galibier did over or around 6 w/kg for around 30 minutes last year.

The more salient point is that people like Lim who may be for "clean" cycling today have also been prepard to lie and obfuscate. Whether by themselves, or requested by their employers.

 

[argyllflyer]

That stood out to me like rottweiler's balls: Ryder clearly has ability, and was left out of the Tour, where Garmin performed about as well as a domestic team.

Maybe the teams know in advance who is going to win the Tour (like Phat did July 11) and send their best riders elsewhere to capitalise on opportunities not already bought.

Maybe I'm being whooshed but Hesjedal has rode for Garmin in the last five tours. He was wiped out in that big crash outside Metz this year.

 

[mikkemus23]

Floyd did 395 watts for 37 minutes on 1 of 4 climbs.....did Basso, or any other rider, do this in any climb of this years Tour? Floyd also climbed Alp d'huez in 38:34. Last year Contador rode 41:30. In 1997 over 60 riders broke 45 minutes. Nothing like that has happened since.

JV's point that the sport as a whole is much cleaner is supported by the outputs and climbing times of the Pro Peloton

This is because of laziness in the peloton. What are they on, really? They should be busting their asses 6 hours a day

 

[Deagol]

I am coming into this way way late, and I see there has been much discussion of JV's editorial in the past days. I would like to say that you don't see anyone else in his position coming into this forum without being anonymous and interacting with posters here the way JV has done. That takes a lot of courage, so thanks to him for that. In his situation (coming in as himself and interacting with a bunch of anonymous fans), he could kind of be in a lose-lose situation, but I think he has done much better than that. As for the editorial itself, some may say it is too late and some may say it does not give enough detail. But, again, do you see anyone else in his position doing this? It is easy to criticize from the sidelines and he probably has many considerations unknown to us here that may have prevented him from handling things the way many of us wish he did. I say thanks to him for this and it is a good start. I hope it will not be the last thing we hear/read from him regarding his experiences with doping and that he can help push reform forward in a way not many can. Hopefully he has given a lot more detail to the people who really can make a difference and the rest of us will get to learn it in due time. It would also be great for the witnesses, especially those who have been bullied or intimidated, to show some solidarity and stand up against the instigator(s). Maybe Betsy for UCI president?

 

[D-Queued]

Floyd did 395 watts for 37 minutes on 1 of 4 climbs.....did Basso, or any other rider, do this in any climb of this years Tour? Floyd also climbed Alp d'huez in 38:34. Last year Contador rode 41:30. In 1997 over 60 riders broke 45 minutes. Nothing like that has happened since.

JV's point that the sport as a whole is much cleaner is supported by the outputs and climbing times of the Pro Peloton

It is an interesting opinion. But, it is just an opinion.

If just as many riders in the peloton are microdosing now, as were taking full doses as before, then it is not any cleaner. Perhaps they aren't taking the same size dose, but if they are doping they are doping.

The peloton can only be cleaner if the number of riders doping has dropped since 1997. Operacion Puerto alone suggests that is a faulty assumption, and that at least when OP broke there were actually more riders doping.

Since OP, we have removed some of the biggest responders to PEDs. Thus, even the times cannot be conclusive in and of themselves.

Vino won the gold medal. Sky is more unbelievable than Floyd.

There is so much doping still in the peloton, that we could be talking about a rounding error.

Dave.

 

[William H]

If the same number of riders are doping, but doping less, that means that a higher proportion of the riders who are succeeding are likely to be clean.

It's easier to be 1% better than the cheats than to be 10%.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, the theory is that it least means someone who is clean has a chance to compete, maybe win. But I honestly don't think we're there quite yet. More than 1996-2005, sure. But that doesn't mean a fair game.

To be sure, JV of course has the right to defend himself verbally on here. On the other hand, he should not forget too easily that we, the fans that is, are the ones who pay his bills.

Ahhh, I don't know about that. The Clinic makes up less than 1% of cycling fans. Sure, it's filled with ardent, diehard fans who see the sport with eyes wide open, but that is definitely not the majority of fans. Thus, to imply that "we" are paying his bills and therefore he should spill his guts here is a bit much.

Let's see people like Brailsford, Leinders, Mauduit, Lim, JB, and others show the guts to even post here before we start throwing that stone.

 

[RichWalk]

If the same number of riders are doping, but doping less, that means that a higher proportion of the riders who are succeeding are likely to be clean.

It's easier to be 1% better than the cheats than to be 10%.

There are so many moot points/differing standpoints/gains & loses within this, its still very hard to determine where we are, ultimately if doping on any level still exists and generates proven results then I feel there will always be some who go down that path.

Probably rather a utopian view but until we see a full career cycle of a young pro who rises to the top and makes a huge statement (backed by proclaimed science) about being totally 'clean' then will it ever stop??

I'd love to think cycling is getting its act together however the cynic in me still believes many teams are just getting better at cheating.........

 

[DirtyWorks]

JV has been far from open about that incident.

For JV to be open about it, he'd have to disclose the communications between Kimmage and himself in the period prior to the sacking of White; he'd have to explain why White was fired for conduct in April 2009 said to relate to a policy that was instituted two months later.

He'd also have to explain why he claimed not to know about a medical visit arranged by his head DS, whose results were sent to his doctor and himself, and whose treatment of the rider in question his team presumably paid for.

He'd have to say whether he has paid Svein Tuft and Trent Lowe yet (S acking them for turning up to a training camp. Nice).

I'd also like to see the TUE list of his riders. A bit of transparency like that, and I'll believe he's more about clean cycling than PR.

I like the fact that JV promotes clean cycling, but I get the impression that the greatest sin you can commit against him is to give him bad publicity.

That would be transparency and accountability. But, we're not going to get that... This is the danger this 'kiddo' sees in JV's calculated efforts. Strategic confessions and sketchy Team affairs overlaid with the appearance of propriety is worse than what Pat and Hein do.

The bolded is elegant and likely accurate as JV is in the business of selling an image.

 

[Race Radio]

It is an interesting opinion. But, it is just an opinion.

If just as many riders in the peloton are microdosing now, as were taking full doses as before, then it is not any cleaner. Perhaps they aren't taking the same size dose, but if they are doping they are doping.

The peloton can only be cleaner if the number of riders doping has dropped since 1997. Operacion Puerto alone suggests that is a faulty assumption, and that at least when OP broke there were actually more riders doping.

Since OP, we have removed some of the biggest responders to PEDs. Thus, even the times cannot be conclusive in and of themselves.

Vino won the gold medal. Sky is more unbelievable than Floyd.

There is so much doping still in the peloton, that we could be talking about a rounding error.

Dave.

Puerto was 6 years ago.

I don't deny that there are many at the front of the race are still doping but the figures show that the peloton as a whole is a lot slower. There are still top riders working with doping doctors but I have not heard of team wide transfusion programs for a while and we have not seen a big bust of a Pro program, like Puerto, for several years. Lots of amateur doping programs getting taken down by the police, few Pro's

 

[the big ring]

Maybe I'm being whooshed but Hesjedal has rode for Garmin in the last five tours. He was wiped out in that big crash outside Metz this year.

He won the Giro this year. And you're right - he was in the Tour, but crashed out. Still curious why he was put in the Giro if he had the form to win that, then surely he'd be expected to go well at the Tour.

 

[the big ring]

JV's point that the sport as a whole is much cleaner is supported by the outputs and climbing times of the Pro Peloton

The only point JV has made here about cleanliness is that the peloton was cleaner in 2006 than it was in the years preceding, going back to 1997. Kinda obvious already doncha think? And somewhat irrelevant.

He's avoided talking about anything post 2006 in this thread.