JV talks, sort of

[Ferminal]

What do you mean? You don't believe those "weekly blood tests" in the puff articles!?!?!?

 

[Steve H.]

What do you mean? You don't believe those "weekly blood tests" in the puff articles!?!?!?

Maybe he meant weakly blood tests ?

 

[sniper]

Where does all the Lance support at Garmin come from?

Wiggins (2010):

"I love him...I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense. Even his strongest critics have benefitted from him." (The Observer, Sunday 25 July 2010.)
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...-for-lance-armstrong.html#TGtbB57BcUoscj7B.99

Talansky (2012):

1) Andrew Talansky - Team Garmin-Barracuda rider

2) "Don't care what you think of @lancearmstrong, USADA really shouldn't repeatedly accuse someone of something with ZERO hard evidence."

"If you have evidence, convict someone. If you don't, then it's done. Either way, for the sake of cycling, I hope this is resolved quickly."

3)

*
*Both tweets were soon deleted but were found here: http://www.xistnc.nl/eyserbos/tweets.php5?account=andrewtalansky

Weltz (2012, when the federal investigation came to a halt):

"You can't go further when you have a federal investigation for two years and they don't nail him. You have to let the guy go," he said. "He was acting properly in (the) same environment as everyone else. He won his victories in a credible way."

What does or doesn't Vaughters tell his staff/riders when they join garmin?
This is all sort of awkward for a clean team.

 

[red_flanders]

What does or doesn't Vaughters tell his staff/riders when they join garmin?
This is all sort of awkward for a clean team.

Addressed by JV upthread, as referenced above.

 

[MarkvW]

However clean or not clean the Garmin team is, Garmin is committed to supporting the filthy world of elite professional bike racing. That's just the way it is.

The "clean," "cleaner," or "cleanish" riders in the peloton are just beards for the doped up reality of the peloton as a whole.

 

[the sceptic]

Where does all the Lance support at Garmin come from?

Wiggins (2010):


Talansky (2012):


Weltz (2012, when the federal investigation came to a halt):
http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/7543016/lance-armstrong-news-not-surprise-some-tour-qatar

What does or doesn't Vaughters tell his staff/riders when they join garmin?
This is all sort of awkward for a clean team.

For all his powers, controlling the minds of his riders is a bit too much even for JV.

 

[sniper]

For all his powers, controlling the minds of his riders is a bit too much even for JV.

sure, but such statements from garmin staff make a complete mockery of JV's narrative about 180 degrees culture change and dopers being ostracized from the peloton.

while i understand the position JV is in, for years now he is busy deliberately pulling the whool over the eyes of many so-called journos and fans.

"dedicated my life to antidoping"

However clean or not clean the Garmin team is, Garmin is committed to supporting the filthy world of elite professional bike racing. That's just the way it is.

The "clean," "cleaner," or "cleanish" riders in the peloton are just beards for the doped up reality of the peloton as a whole.

this pretty much

 

[hrotha]

Sniper:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=981618&postcount=172

 

[sniper]

Sniper:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=981618&postcount=172

thanks, had missed that.
it's a good response, and it'd be an even better response if it were only talansky. however, it's also weltz and wiggins. all stubborn *******s? probably.
anyway, whatever excuses jv comes up with to apologize for talansky, wiggo, weltz et al, the statements of these guys (in addition to many many other things) make a complete mockery of his public narrative about the 180% culture change and ostracizing of dopers.
such a change hasn't occurred, and to claim it has merely shows jv's efforts to pull whool over the eyes of independent observers.
perhaps he shouldn't.

 

[sniper]

thanks, had missed that.
it's a good response, and it'd be an even better response if it were only talansky. however, it's also weltz and wiggins. all stubborn *******s? probably.
anyway, whatever excuses jv comes up with to apologize for talansky, wiggo, weltz et al, the statements of these guys (in addition to many many other things) make a complete mockery of his public narrative about the 180% culture change and ostracizing of dopers.
such a change hasn't occurred, and to claim it has merely shows jv's efforts to pull whool over the eyes of independent observers.
perhaps he shouldn't.

not to mention they shed some uncomfortable light on talansky's cleanliness and about the genuine nature and rigidity of garmin's antidoping policy.
jv can scream at him all he wants, but that's crying over spilled milk. talansky said what he said there, and those aint the words of a clean guy instructed by his DS to fear ueberdoper armstrong.
hope i'm wrong.

 

[hrotha]

If you read the next few posts after #172, he addressed Wiggins too. Unfavourably.
He also addressed Weltz in some other post in that thread.

 

[sniper]

If you read the next few posts after #172, he addressed Wiggins too. Unfavourably.
He also addressed Weltz in some other post in that thread.

i know he did.
does that change anything?
i said two things based on the sum of those statements by (ex)garmin staffmembers. Taken together,
- they show jv's claims about culture change and ostracizing are clear nonsense and imo a gratuite attempt to pull whool over eyes.
- they shed uncomfortable light on the working ethics of the three involved, all of whom are (ex)garmin, so by extension they shed some uncomfortable light on garmin.

not sure how jv 'addressing' or apologizing for those statements changes anything.
Yes, they had been pointed out previously individually, but i wanted to take them together.

 

[red_flanders]

i know he did.
does that change anything?
i said two things based on the sum of those statements by (ex)garmin staffmembers. Taken together,
- they show jv's claims about culture change and ostracizing are clear nonsense and imo a gratuite attempt to pull whool over eyes.
- they shed uncomfortable light on the working ethics of the three involved, all of whom are (ex)garmin, so by extension they shed some uncomfortable light on garmin.

not sure how jv 'addressing' or apologizing for those statements changes anything.
Yes, they had been pointed out previously individually, but i wanted to take them together.
looks like a pattern emerging. a dampy, smelly, brown pattern.

Well, that's one way of interpreting it. Suffice it to say I don't share your interpretation. I'd rather hear from the source. Too bad we don't hear it anymore.

 

[sniper]

Well, that's one way of interpreting it. Suffice it to say I don't share your interpretation. I'd rather hear from the source. Too bad we don't hear it anymore.

Agree of course that much of the insider stuff is interesting.
Otoh, if hesjedal doped to win the giro, jv has been selling some utter bs in here.

 

[red_flanders]

Agree of course that much of the insider stuff is interesting.
Otoh, if hesjedal doped to win the giro, jv has been selling some utter bs in here.

I thought about that for a bit. I would offer the following different interpretation. If Hesjedal doped while on Garmin, and JV knew and didn't do anything about it, then I'd say we're in the realm of BS. If he doped at any point while on Garmin, the internal procedures are not achieving the stated goals.

 

[sniper]

I thought about that for a bit. I would offer the following different interpretation. If Hesjedal doped while on Garmin, and JV knew and didn't do anything about it, then I'd say we're in the realm of BS. If he doped at any point while on Garmin, the internal procedures are not achieving the stated goals.

very fair.
which is why i'd have preferred vaughters not to vouch for his riders so often. Afaik, JV doesn't personally close-monitor his riders (cf. hesjedal, who lives on maui most of the time), so he should provide at least some disclaimers/caveats before vouching for any of his riders.
There are doubts regarding his riders, and if he's honest he should have some doubts himself and allow for doubts to be expressed.
he shouldn't be on the defense so much, i guess, for me to find him credible.

meanwhile, i will happily continue to criticize his, at times gratuite, public/media narrative (to be distinguished from his Clinic narrative), such as the story about that 180 culture change, how dopers get ostracized, and how doping aint what the cool kids do anymore.
i don't wanna sit and watch how a whole bunch of goodwilling journos and fans get the whool pulled over the eyes.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I thought about that for a bit. I would offer the following different interpretation. If Hesjedal doped while on Garmin, and JV knew and didn't do anything about it, then I'd say we're in the realm of BS. If he doped at any point while on Garmin, the internal procedures are not achieving the stated goals.

Ryder won the Giro 'clean'.

Maybe the internal procedures ARE achieving their UNSTATED goals.

 

[red_flanders]

Ryder won the Giro 'clean'.

Maybe the internal procedures ARE achieving their UNSTATED goals.

Maybe. Which is why I crafted that sentence the way I did. I don't see any evidence that this is the case, but it can't be ruled out.

I prefer to give those who I personally think are trying to do some good the benefit of the doubt and some room to operate in what is a poisoned atmosphere, so I'm not going to rail against Garmin. I don't see their riders doing humanly impossible performances. Ryder winning the Giro raises serious eyebrows to be sure, but I don't find that performance completely unbelievable. I find it questionable.

Obviously I see other performances in a different light, like those of Froome and Horner. They are so outside the envelope of what has been achieved clean that I can't come close to believing it.

I don't think JV is perfect and I don't think his team likely is or will be. But I see him as someone who really is trying to change the climate. It's subjective and I can't prove it. YMMV.

 

[sniper]

...
I don't think JV is perfect and I don't think his team likely is or will be. But I see him as someone who really is trying to change the climate. It's subjective and I can't prove it. YMMV.

i don't doubt that. he's definitely discovered a niche. the clean(er) cycling niche. his TED presentation speaks volumes. it;s almost as if he's trying to patentize clean(er) cycling. and he's clever: he's one of the first to have understood that clean(er) cycling will sell a lot better than dark era cycling, and to have understood what is needed to create the perception of clean(er) cycling.
so of course he'll be happy to see that come true and he'll benefit from it in various ways. he'll be seen as the game changer (if not already) and will take a lot of credit for it.

so he's trying to change the climate, fair, i'll cheer for that even if he's doing it primarily out of self interest.

but by pretending the climate has already changed he's so far off, it undermines my faith in him and garmin and suggests that perception is all he cares about.
i'd wish he was more cautious, contained, low-key in that sense.
For instance, I really appreciated his "i don't know' tweet wrt Froome.
As if he was finally being truthful.
he doesn't need to be calling out other teams or individual riders. of course not.
but a bit more contained, cautious, agnostic if you will, would be great.

 

[red_flanders]

If he can't sell it, there will be no team. So sell the **** out of it as far as I'm concerned.

I kind of agree I don't love it when he calls out other riders, mostly because I think it engenders bad will toward him and his team. But he gets killed if he says something, and he gets killed if he doesn't.

I just don't share the view of dishonesty on his part, at least not how it feels to me from your posts. I say give the guy some leash to sell it and do it. If it takes root and he takes credit, or even more credit than is due (I don't see this as happening frankly), I'm all for it as long as the sport is cleaning up.

Maybe I'm being foolish and he's pulling the wool over my eyes. At this point I don't think so, and I don't see his riders doing preposterous things. For now I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

We'll all certainly be watching closely, that's for sure!

 

[pastronef]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 5h
Man, I'm not getting any angry tweets over the bus driver with EPO in his underpants. Lesson learned: cycling fans prefer denial.

 

[la_bicicleta]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 5h
Man, I'm not getting any angry tweets over the bus driver with EPO in his underpants. Lesson learned: cycling fans prefer denial.

Is JV dissing Belkin or the fans? He sure as hell is not making any
new friends, sometimes he should just STFU.

 

[del1962]

Good on JV, the usual suspects round here don't really seem care about Belkin just closing the case

 

[pastronef]

Good on JV, the usual suspects round here don't really seem care about Belkin just closing the case

agree, it seems like there are some targets to be shot.
while others, for example astana, are let alone and fine

 

[Aapjes]

Good on JV, the usual suspects round here don't really seem care about Belkin just closing the case

What else can they do? There is no hard evidence at all. Just the word of one person against the word of another.

Also keep in mind that The Netherlands do not have at will employment. Firing someone without a judicially valid reason can be costly.