JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

Good on JV, the usual suspects round here don't really seem care about Belkin just closing the case

Yeah lets get angry over a doping team that doesn't wave the 'clean' team banner in fans faces.

No one gives a *** about Belkin being clean because no one believes they are clean.

Sky fans really take the criticism of their team very personal.

 

[Benotti69]

agree, it seems like there are some targets to be shot.
while others, for example astana, are let alone and fine

who are the targets? Those proclaiming to be clean in a cesspit? Seems like legitimate targets to call out their emperors new clothes BS.

Astana? find someone in the clinic that believes they are clean, go on!

Look up the threads about all the top teams(except Sky & Garmin), no one is defending them as clean, because those teams don't make huge statements about being clean!

 

[Benotti69]

If he can't sell it, there will be no team. So sell the **** out of it as far as I'm concerned.

I kind of agree I don't love it when he calls out other riders, mostly because I think it engenders bad will toward him and his team. But he gets killed if he says something, and he gets killed if he doesn't.

I just don't share the view of dishonesty on his part, at least not how it feels to me from your posts. I say give the guy some leash to sell it and do it. If it takes root and he takes credit, or even more credit than is due (I don't see this as happening frankly), I'm all for it as long as the sport is cleaning up.

Maybe I'm being foolish and he's pulling the wool over my eyes. At this point I don't think so, and I don't see his riders doing preposterous things. For now I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

We'll all certainly be watching closely, that's for sure!

Winning 2 monuments and a Giro in this sport might be viewed as preposterous...................

 

[mattghg]

Yeah lets get angry over a doping team that doesn't wave the 'clean' team banner in fans faces.

No one gives a *** about Belkin being clean because no one believes they are clean.

Sky fans really take the criticism of their team very personal.

In a thread about Vaughters, while discussing Garmin and Belkin ... Sky somehow comes into it.

 

[Benotti69]

In a thread about Vaughters, while discussing Garmin and Belkin ... Sky somehow comes into it.

Yeah, the sky fans cant help themselves, talk about blind!

 

[hrotha]

Eh, I'd say Belkin has been pretty big on the "clean cycling" thing. It's a fair rap.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Good on JV, the usual suspects round here don't really seem care about Belkin just closing the case

Rabobank (the team) was a big fraud. Probably on a similar level as Telekom and US Postal. Some of Rabobank's biggest cheaters have already been exposed including Boogerd, Chicken, Sorensen, Dekker and Menchov and that team's dope doctor is under pressure. So whatever is left of the original Rabobank team have been trying to clean up the mess with a mini T&R with limited results. Ten Dam's recent statements tells me there are still cultural problems on the team and doping will likely return in a meaningful way.

Now I'm waiting for Ten Dam to win the Giro.

 

[sniper]

Yeah lets get angry over a doping team that doesn't wave the 'clean' team banner in fans faces.

No one gives a *** about Belkin being clean because no one believes they are clean.

Sky fans really take the criticism of their team very personal.

it seems jv is offended that people question the ethics of johnny weltz but don't care too much about piet de vos.

to be sure, also at belkin they got the clean(er) cycling memo:

Gesink: En ik ken de verhalen uit het verleden, ik weet hoe het er pakweg tien jaar geleden aan toeging. Dat is volkomen anders dan wat nu gebeurt. ... Ik mag heel erg blij zijn dat ik nu profrenner ben en niet toen.'

"i know the stories from the past. I know how different it was say 10 years ago. That's totally different from now. I'm very happy to be a prorider now and not back then."

but overall the staff at belkin is definitely not on a horse as high as garmin's. not by a long shot.
jv suggesting we shouldn't question weltz, because others did the same, that's another sign for me that jv isn't part of the solution, but part of the problem.

 

[sniper]

Eh, I'd say Belkin has been pretty big on the "clean cycling" thing. It's a fair rap.

but what is jv saying in that tweet?
that if we don't question piet de vos we shouldn't question weltz?
if that's what he's implying, then he still doesn't really understand very well why people don't trust cycling.

 

[JimmyFingers]

who are the targets? Those proclaiming to be clean in a cesspit? Seems like legitimate targets to call out their emperors new clothes BS.

Astana? find someone in the clinic that believes they are clean, go on!

Look up the threads about all the top teams(except Sky & Garmin), no one is defending them as clean, because those teams don't make huge statements about being clean!

Richard Plugge, general manager of Belkin Pro Cycling, told the BBC that the sponsorship deal was a great boost for the team, which has won 19 races as far this season.

Looking ahead to the Tour De France he said that the team's goal was to get rider Bauke Mollema as highly placed within the top ten finishers as possible.

He said if Mollama "does a good job and the circumstances are right" then that could potentially be towards the higher end of the top ten.

"We won't be happy with third, if second place appears possible," he added.

On the question of doping in cycling, he said he thought there had been a change in the culture of the sport, and that the team would have a "harsh" and "zero-tolerance" approach to doping or any other misdemeanours.

From BBC news on the announcement of the new sponsors.

The team is committed to perform at the highest level and we will do so in an honest and trustworthy way.

From the Blekin website

Mouvement Pour un Cyclisme Credible was established in 2007 by cycling teams intent on cleaning up the sport.

Martinelli said the Kazakh team are discussing joining it with their doctors and will make a final decision at their training camp at the beginning of December.

"I think it is an important thing to do, to try to change something or in any case to send an important signal," he said.

"Maybe we don’t talk about it so much, but we really do a lot (of anti-doping work). We have an internal system that monitors all cyclists day by day. We perform our internal controls.

"We are a team that has changed a lot since two years ago. We are seeing the results of that now.

"Until now, for that specific reason we have not had any more problems. But it’s too early to talk - as I said, we need to work more and talk less."

Martinelli insisted that no-one at the team has had any recent contact with Michele Ferrari, the Italian doctor handed a lifetime sports ban by the US Anti-Doping Agency for numerous violations.

Astana's entire management resigned ahead of the 2008 season over a doping scandal involving Alexander Vinokourov, but their next chief, Johan Bruyneel, has since been accused of involvement in doping himself and was sacked by RadioShack-Nissan this year.

"All this is history. During these last few years I think everybody knows (Ferrari) is out of cycling," he added. "If some stupid person after that goes to Ferrari I think they really should not be racing anymore.

"Since I arrived, from 2010, I have never seen the Ferraris - I have not seen them with our team. I think the idiots - we have a lot of them in our sport - have understood the story now and they are very careful."

Team Astana has joined up with a major anti-doping expert in a bid to start afresh following a major doping scandal at the Tour de France in July.

Aware of the desperate situation in which the sport now finds itself, Bruyneel has brought on board Dr. Rasmus Damsgaard, the Danish expert whose anti-doping programme, initially used by Team CSC, has won widespread respect in the sport.

Bruyneel is now hoping the Dane's battery of costly in-house doping controls will help Astana begin afresh in 2008.

"Zero tolerance is the minimum (requirement) and we want to go even further," said Bruyneel. "If we continue to tolerate actions like we have seen in the last few years we will only chase away sponsors from our sport."

Bruyneel added: "Dr. Damsgaard will have carte blanche while overseeing our riders during the 2008 season and we are requiring that he performs random independent in-house doping controls. It's the only way to prove to the world that we run a clean team and that clean cycling really exists."

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/astana-going-for-clean-in-08-13342/

That one is from 2008.

All the teams come out with the same spiel. Just Sky and Garmin get slaughtered for it.

 

[Benotti69]

From BBC news on the announcement of the new sponsors.



From the Blekin website





http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/astana-going-for-clean-in-08-13342/

That one is from 2008.

All the teams come out with the same spiel. Just Sky and Garmin get slaughtered for it.

Ta for all the links Jimmy.

But if JV is not proclaiming them a clean team like Sky then they aint, JV is the deity of 'clean' cycling and his proclaimations are word....

 

[JimmyFingers]

Believe me when I say you should be skeptical, but criticising Sky and JV for their clean PR and not other teams is double standards, as plenty of teams out there tout their 'clean' credentials in the media and on their website. Garmin and Sky get more coverage in English speaking media outlets but it shouldn't be thought they are the only ones doing it.

 

[sniper]

Believe me when I say you should be skeptical, but criticising Sky and JV for their clean PR and not other teams is double standards, as plenty of teams out there tout their 'clean' credentials in the media and on their website. Garmin and Sky get more coverage in English speaking media outlets but it shouldn't be thought they are the only ones doing it.

we'll talk again as soon as belkin win a giro or tdf.

for anybody to suggest we should cut garmin slack because we cut belkin slack looks like a poor attempt at deflection to me.

 

[The Hitch]

agree, it seems like there are some targets to be shot.
while others, for example astana, are let alone and fine

That's bs pastronef. Astana gets called out on here all the time. To claim they are left alone is very below the belt.

 

[JimmyFingers]

we'll talk again as soon as belkin win a giro or tdf.

for anybody to suggest we should cut garmin slack because we cut belkin slack looks like a poor attempt at deflection to me.

I don't think you can grade cheating. Team A cheated and won, so they are better than Team B who cheated but didn't win. Doesn't quite compute, again its double standards.

 

[sniper]

I don't think you can grade cheating. Team A cheated and won, so they are better than Team B who cheated but didn't win. Doesn't quite compute, again its double standards.

how's that double standards?
in an ideal world dopers/cheats don't win prizes.
as long as team X don't win prizes, I couldn't care too much if team X dope and cheat or not.

 

[JimmyFingers]

So its ok to dope as long as you lose?

Sorry I don't get it. Your logic runs entirely at odds with mine.

You do know that people dope to win right? Whether they do or not is secondary, the intention is to defraud the audience and organisers.

 

[sniper]

So its ok to dope as long as you lose?

Sorry I don't get it. Your logic runs entirely at odds with mine.

You do know that people dope to win right? Whether they do or not is secondary, the intention is to defraud the audience and organisers.

your words not mine.

 

[Ferminal]

Seeing as we're on the topic of Rabo, why is a dirty Dekker 10x better than a dirty Hesjedal/Vande Velde/Danielson but a clean Dekker is 10x worse than a clean Hesjedal/Vande Velde/Danielson?

As for Blanco themselves, well, Gesink's performance speaks for itself. I'm sure they will cop it when he wins the Tour next year though.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Well personally I don't want anyone doping, whether they win or not. They're making a career out of the sport, possibly at the expense of someone more honest. I don't grade cheats.

 

[mattghg]

as long as team X don't win prizes, I couldn't care too much if team X dope and cheat or not.

Weird. I care at least.

Back to Vaughters. He could either be saying:

1 I get treated too harshly, or
2 Other teams (e.g. Belkin) get treated too leniently.

If it's 1 then, sorry JV, got no sympathy. If it's 2 then fair enough.

 

[del1962]

Yeah lets get angry over a doping team that doesn't wave the 'clean' team banner in fans faces.

No one gives a *** about Belkin being clean because no one believes they are clean.

Sky fans really take the criticism of their team very personal.

I thouught the narrative was Belkin/Rabbo stopped doping when Leinders left, and if they dont have a clean team banner, then why did they make such a fuss over LLS

 

[mattghg]

Seeing as we're on the topic of Rabo, why is a dirty Dekker 10x better than a dirty Hesjedal/Vande Velde/Danielson but a clean Dekker is 10x worse than a clean Hesjedal/Vande Velde/Danielson?

Is Dekker a super-responder?

 

[GJB123]

but what is jv saying in that tweet?
that if we don't question piet de vos we shouldn't question weltz?
if that's what he's implying, then he still doesn't really understand very well why people don't trust cycling.

Oh where to start. Ah well, I will give it a go once more.

He is not saying people can't question Weltz or Garmin or both. He is, justifiably, surprised that a complete denial from Belkin with nothing in the way op openness whatsoever of what they found about their doctor or their bus driver doesn't receive any scrutiny.

On the one hand we have Garmin who haven't denied that Weltz committed serious transgressions in the past, who have chastised Weltz for making stupid comments on the Lance-affair and who have only sated that they want to make sure he doesn't do what he did while in Garmin-employment.

On the other hand we have Belkin, fka Rabobank, with a team wide doping program, several doping doctors and employees that get accused of having committed serious transgressions in the past (although I personally have more problems with what the doctor is supposed to have done than with what bus driver is supposed to have done), the team makes a haphazard statement about it not acknowledging anything and not making clear in any way how they make sure that the same won't happen again.

No, place tell me again, that you don't see the difference.

 

[GJB123]

Is Dekker a super-responder?

It is pretty well known within Dutch cycling that Thomas Dekker was already on the gear quite young in the U-23's (nevertheless he is petty in motio on a bike when in full flow).