JV talks, sort of

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Mar 25, 2013
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sniper said:
if talansky's clean, he should be alarmed by di luca's accusations, rather than attack him for it.
how can talansky vouch for anybody outside garmin?
delusional? how does talansky know?

where does talansky's agression come from? genuine hatred? wtf?

objectively, talansky's comments sound like old school omerta.
You see Di Luca with his 90% comment is near implying calling guys like Talansky dopers especially as he refers to "you can't finish top 10 in the Giro without doping." Even though it's not the Giro, Talansky has top 10s in two GTs so is it any wonder he reacted the way he did.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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Benotti69 said:
Is he talking crap?

I dont think he is.
So when the "new generation" say a simple statement that the sport is cleaner than ever, it is to be scoffed at, but Di Luca's comments are to be taking serious even with no detail.

A bit selective in your acceptance of one comment over the other.
 
pmcg76 said:
There were others who spit in the soup before Kimmage, probably man we never heard about. FFS, even in his book he talks about a French rider going on live TV and talking about doping in cycling before Rough Ride ever came out. Doing that in France was a lot braver than releasing a book in UK & Ireland where cycling was small fry compared to France.

Nobody knows the full account of what JV said to USADA other than what was related to the Armstrong case. Has Kimmage even talked to anyone within the cycling world about doping? Why has he never fingered Roche or Kelly when the evidence is already out there?
What rider?
 
gooner said:
So when the "new generation" say a simple statement that the sport is cleaner than ever, it is to be scoffed at, but Di Luca's comments are to be taking serious even with no detail.

A bit selective in your acceptance of one comment over the other.
Because Di Luca's statement, dubious as it is, actually lines up better with the evidence.

Personally I don't believe his figures, but I'll take them over those who say cycling doesn't have a doping problem anymore.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Ferminal said:
Talansky couldn't work out that Armstrong was a doper, but his radar today is spot on.
this

@gooner, pmcg76
recent cycling history has shown that when X called Y a doper, X was right most of the time and that when Y said he's clean, Y was wrong most of the time. If we add to that the quality of present-day testing (the same as it was before), then yes, there is reason to be alarmed by Di Luca's statements, and little apriori reason to believe Talansky.

Though Di Luca might well be exaggerating with his 90% figure, his main message - that you need to dope in order to fight for the podium at a GT - sounds plausible to me.
 
May 26, 2010
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gooner said:
So when the "new generation" say a simple statement that the sport is cleaner than ever, it is to be scoffed at, but Di Luca's comments are to be taking serious even with no detail.

A bit selective in your acceptance of one comment over the other.
So a guy riding for his lifetime in the sport knows nothing but a newbie knows everything. That's logical.:rolleyes:
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
So a guy riding for his lifetime in the sport knows nothing but a newbie knows everything. That's logical.:rolleyes:
Like Marco Pinotti?

wasn't going to waste any time on this but since you wonder here it is : to MY knowledge, that's bull****
Marco was 9th in the Giro.

There is certainly doping still in the sport but the 90% figure is a bit hard to believe.
 
May 26, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Like Marco Pinotti?
When did Pinotti become Talansky?

Race Radio said:
Marco was 9th in the Giro.

There is certainly doping still in the sport but the 90% figure is a bit hard to believe.
Pinotti has ridden for some well dodgy teams.

I dont see where the culture to dope stopped. It has metamorphosed over the years but as for stopping, nope cant say i have seen it.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
When did Pinotti become Talansky?



Pinotti has ridden for some well dodgy teams.

I dont see where the culture to dope stopped. It has metamorphosed over the years but as for stopping, nope cant say i have seen it.
I was replying to your post about a rider spending a lifetime in the sport, which Marco has. I agree that Talansky is not the best source.....but Marco is.

I am certainly not saying the culture of doping has stopped. Sure it is less then 15 years ago, or even 8 years ago, even Di lucca admits this.....but it has not stopped. What I have an issue with is Di Lucca's claim that 90% dope. I don't believe that is true. His claim that you have to dope to be in the top 10 of the Giro is easier to believe but I still think Marco rode clean so even that claim is not accurate
 
May 26, 2010
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Race Radio said:
I was replying to your post about a rider spending a lifetime in the sport, which Marco has. I agree that Talansky is not the best source.....but Marco is.
Talansky at best is an idiot shooting his mouth off....

Race Radio said:
I am certainly not saying the culture of doping has stopped. Sure it is less then 15 years ago, or even 8 years ago, even Di lucca admits this.....but it has not stopped. What I have an issue with is Di Lucca's claim that 90% dope. I don't believe that is true. His claim that you have to dope to be in the top 10 of the Giro is easier to believe but I still think Marco rode clean so even that claim is not accurate
the epo full on 60%Hcts has passed, but doping hasn't thats for sure. But that doesn't make the doping any better just because it aint like the 90s. All doping is out of order.

I wonder do people consider the EPO era different from pre-epo and now post-epo and new PEDs dont count......

I wonder how many other guys out there were lucky when they were taking their EPO and no OOC tester came knocking? Lots i bet.
 
Digger said:
What rider?

You know what, this makes me laugh. Kimmage is such a huge figure for people but then you have to wonder if they have even read Rough Ride.

Unless it was edited out of later editions (maybe I just know Rough Ride inside out), Kimmage relates a story about a guy called Didier Garcia who was pro for about 4-5 seasons in the mid 80s, rode for the Systeme-u team and KAS and got really ****ed up on the drugs. He appeared on French TV to talk about his ordeal in procycling and was laughed at by Marc Madiot. Kimmage said how he was so angry at Madiot becasue he could relate to what Garcia had experienced.

Wonder what Kimmage thinks of Madiot now???
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Talansky at best is an idiot shooting his mouth off....



the epo full on 60%Hcts has passed, but doping hasn't thats for sure. But that doesn't make the doping any better just because it aint like the 90s. All doping is out of order.

I wonder do people consider the EPO era different from pre-epo and now post-epo and new PEDs dont count......

I wonder how many other guys out there were lucky when they were taking their EPO and no OOC tester came knocking? Lots i bet.
Agreed, there is a lot of moral relativism.....but for me it comes to the % who are actually doping. I think it is vastly lower then the 90's, regardless of product.
 
Race Radio said:
There is certainly doping still in the sport but the 90% figure is a bit hard to believe.
Great to see you back posting here.

Of course it can only be estimates, otherwise Di Luca really have good information when he mention the 90% figure. Looking at the sport, the history of the team leaders and doctors involved with the top teams. To me, it seems easier to believe the 90% figure, than the story about that everything changed, and it is only a few bad guys who dope. But still, that does not meen it would be as high as 90%.

Since you find the 90 % figure hard to believe, I assume you would have an idea about a more realistic figure. What estimated figure would you find believable? Or if that is too tough, perhaps you could say If you would believe it would be more or less that 50%?

If I had to bet my life on it, I would probably go for something around 75% doping, in the giro context.
 
May 26, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Agreed, there is a lot of moral relativism.....but for me it comes to the % who are actually doping. I think it is vastly lower then the 90's, regardless of product.

I think it is a high as it ever was. In the 90s. That is the culture. Speeds haven't dropped they are still increasing in GTs, so that answers that.

Teams have got better with their logistics, but even then the Italians are getting caught. If other nations put as much effort as the Italian authorities (and it probably could be more) we would probably see many more Mantova's.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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hrotha said:
Because Di Luca's statement, dubious as it is, actually lines up better with the evidence.

Personally I don't believe his figures, but I'll take them over those who say cycling doesn't have a doping problem anymore.
Agree. That's was the point I was making. Without detail, why should one be accepted as gospel over the other which is what Benotti is doing. In the end it can just otherwise be painted as a load of old guff. No doubt there is still doping in the sport and while I don't believe his estimate of 90% figure, I don't pay much if any attention to guys who say it's near non-existent today.

Benotti69 said:
So a guy riding for his lifetime in the sport knows nothing but a newbie knows everything. That's logical.:rolleyes:
Coming from a guy who makes up stuff to say the figure is higher than 90% and he's not even in the peloton.
 
Benotti69 said:
Pinotti has ridden for some well dodgy teams.
.
Pinotti was calling out Armstrong back during the time period when according to Wiggins, you were risking your life if you didn't continuously seek out interviews in order to praise Lance as much as possible, remind the world what a great man he was, how great he is for cycling, insult those who doubted him etc etc.

That gets him a lot of credit.
 
pmcg76 said:
You know what, this makes me laugh. Kimmage is such a huge figure for people but then you have to wonder if they have even read Rough Ride.

Unless it was edited out of later editions (maybe I just know Rough Ride inside out), Kimmage relates a story about a guy called Didier Garcia who was pro for about 4-5 seasons in the mid 80s, rode for the Systeme-u team and KAS and got really ****ed up on the drugs. He appeared on French TV to talk about his ordeal in procycling and was laughed at by Marc Madiot. Kimmage said how he was so angry at Madiot becasue he could relate to what Garcia had experienced.

Wonder what Kimmage thinks of Madiot now???
Oh I knew exactly who you were referring to - Garcia was Nov 89...Kimmage was already writing his book at this stage for publishing in '90...so to say Kimmage wasn't even the first to spit in the soup is splitting hairs.
 
May 26, 2010
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gooner said:
Coming from a guy who makes up stuff to say the figure is higher than 90% and he's not even in the peloton.
I post my opinion. Sorry that it doesn't agree with those who are suckered by the likes of JV to believe the sport is cleaner.

Would love the sport to be clean, but cannot see how that can be when all the sport knows is doping.

But you have obviously seen where the change took place and have evidence that you can post, because from where i sit McQuaid only left in 2013 and the likes of Bernard Kohl suggested that the BP helped doping programs.
 
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