JV talks, sort of

[Dear Wiggo]

Why? Because in the midst of all that, JV revealed something quite startling and, in my opinion, very significant. He revealed the fact that both the ASO and the UCI directly discouraged him from including Floyd in his team.

Whereas for me, that response is
1. unverifiable - like his claim that Rossi told him "everyone tests high at the start of a GT', not just his man who won, everyone. This was after telling us a team doctor from another team told him their riders tested high as well. As if team doctors are going around telling other team managers their riders tested high. Huh? And they tested high not because they are doping though, but because, despite it being an issue since 1998/9, where he also mentions exactly the same phenomenon, the machines are not calibrated correctly.
2. let's say it's true. How difficult is it to believe? They accepted a $100,000 donation from Lance. Floyd was clearly anathema. What does it help to prove or show JV was spineless?

That tidbit about Floyd was hugely significant, and well worth further discussion.

Do you mean discussion or idle speculation? I don't think JV is going to tell us any more.

We can discuss it, sure, but that's a pretty quick conversation, surely? UCI were corrupt. Elements of it probably still are.

Perhaps JV can tell us why Verbruggen thought he had any power over JV at all, to threaten him when JV dissed the Tour of Beijing race? Apparently JV wasn't allowed to call Hein any more? What exactly was he calling the honorary UCI president about in the first place?

 

[peloton]

What really bothers me is that people throw out these times without specifying exactly what the climb was. It makes no sense to list times of other elite riders of the past unless there is a well-established starting point that everyone uses. In fact, no one seems to know where anyone started, except the riders themselves.


This is why I always thought STRAVA would be so cool if the pros actually used it (and no, I have no affiliation whatsoever except that I think its a novel concept). There would be no arguing about starting places, finishes, or times! Maybe this is precisely why they don't use it, so nothing can really be accurate.....

People don't 'throw out' these times. They are measured from the bottom of the climb...
Even F1 driver(s) do that

I do love cycling, but I wouldn’t call that thrill-seeking. A group of us sometimes cycle up the Col de la Madone, which is the big mountain just behind Monaco. I am the community champion, in fact, with an impressive time – even if I do say so myself – of 44 minutes and 57 seconds. There is definitely some good-natured competition in the group. We like to think we’re in our own version of the Tour de France.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/34719/nico-rosbergs-travelling-life.html

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Futher, what hold do UCI / ASO have over a Pro Tour team? Their license. Anything else?

ASO cannot deny them entry to the races - it's my understanding that as a full Pro Tour team they are guaranteed entry to those races.

Their license renewal could have some obstacles, but we have seen one other team overcome that through the courts, yes? (Distant memory).

So what exactly can an UCI/ASO organisation threaten a clean team with if they hire a rider?

Call me naive, I am genuinely interested.

 

[blackcat]

Armstrong's call most likely.

IMO it was Armstrong who got Floyd popped. No proof just that FLoyd became the new American TdF winner and looked likely to win a few more and that would have stolen Armstrong's limelight.

ouiouiouioui

 

[Granville57]

Now maybe I am dreaming this but I thought JV had said something like this before or maybe it was inferred in JVs own style but I wasn't shocked to read it.

In the Jörg Jaksche thread?

That's another thread well worth reviewing.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18436&

I just went back and read the entire thing. I remember following that thread at the time (it was the very thread where JV outed Danielson) and was surprised to find that I hadn't posted in it (unless mine were a part of what got deleted with the others?). I certainly had plenty to say in the aftermath of that in terms of pressing Benson for specifics about his use the material in that thread for CN homepage use, but that is quite another story.

What was most entertaining was reading a nearly duplicate discussion to what we are having here in regards to JV's posting style and his treatment by other forum members.

This is worth repeating (and it must be pointed out that at the time, red_flanders was an actual mod, not just some delusional member with mod fantasies).

Okay folks, this thread didn't start out well with folks calling JV names. The policy of this board has been that we're not going to censor most insults toward public figures, but we simply do not allow insults of other forum members. I don't see any reason why that needs to change. JV, while a public figure, is clearly a contributing forum member, and as such you need to address him with the same level of respect we require you to use with other forum members. At the same time, JV and any public figure who decides to post here are required to refrain from insulting other forum members, which has also happened in this thread.

JV can clearly handle himself and has not asked for any intervention by the mods, this is purely my personal judgement watching the last couple of threads which JV has been involved in.

Please continue and ask questions, tough and otherwise of your fellow board members, but do not stray into insults. It degrades the conversation and stifles discussion. Plus, it's just rude.

Posts have been edited or deleted. Thank you in advance for your adherence to this core forum rule.

To address the above question raised by pmcg76, it seems that there was plenty of talk in that thread about blacklisting as it applied to Jaksche, but then this popped out:

Of course JJ might still have been blacklisted, its just that JV never came that far in his assesment process like he did(supposedly?) with Landis by sending an email to ASO.

So maybe there was some other discussion about this? I'm truly curious. If so, I must've missed it, and pmcg76 is the only one so far to have picked up on it. Curious indeed.

But there was nothing speculative about it whatsoever in this thread several pages back. JV stated it quite clearly—the ASO and UCI did not want to see him sign Floyd. But was that in response to an email sent to the ASO by JV as ToreBear's post seems to imply? Hopefully JV will return and offer some clarification and details regarding this.

One last link to that thread. To demonstrate how JV is sometimes damned if he does, damned if he doesn't: He is called out repeatedly in that thread for not being more explicit and/specific on certain matters. But when he is brutally honest and open about his feelings on Dekker:

Yes, Thomas is an arrogant ***. Or was. hugely insecure guy. It's been a lot of work with him. A lot....

He is met with this!

why would you discuss things like that about a rider of yours in a forum?

The poor guy just can't win!


There are several very good exchanges throughout that entire thread though. Well worth the time.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But when he is brutally honest and open about his feelings on Dekker:

He is met with this!

The poor guy just can't win!

That you cannot understand why _nm__ is aghast that JV would do that explains a lot about our differences.

Gossip is satisfying, and primarily what JV shares.

 

[Granville57]

Futher, what hold do UCI / ASO have over a Pro Tour team? Their license. Anything else?

ASO cannot deny them entry to the races - it's my understanding that as a full Pro Tour team they are guaranteed entry to those races.

Their license renewal could have some obstacles, but we have seen one other team overcome that through the courts, yes? (Distant memory).

So what exactly can an UCI/ASO organisation threaten a clean team with if they hire a rider?

Call me naive, I am genuinely interested.

Good question. Pro Tour team status? I would imagine that plenty of bureaucratic obstacle could be put in place—"lost" paperwork, deadlines for applications missed (Oh! We're sorry but we just didn't receive your paper work in time. And when did receive it, it didn't comply with our mandatory two-paper-clip format. So sorry you won't be joining us at XYZ race. We sincerely hope that your sponsor understands the dilemma you've now created for yourself.)

I am genuinely interested as well.

 

[Granville57]

That you cannot understand why _nm__ is aghast that JV would do that explains a lot about our differences.

Gossip is satisfying, and primarily what JV shares.

Fair enough. But a good part of my including that part was merely for comic relief.

 

[Granville57]

Futher, what hold do UCI / ASO have over a Pro Tour team? Their license. Anything else?

ASO cannot deny them entry to the races - it's my understanding that as a full Pro Tour team they are guaranteed entry to those races.

Their license renewal could have some obstacles, but we have seen one other team overcome that through the courts, yes? (Distant memory).

So what exactly can an UCI/ASO organisation threaten a clean team with if they hire a rider?

Call me naive, I am genuinely interested.

Good question. Pro Tour team status? I would imagine that plenty of bureaucratic obstacle could be put in place—"lost" paperwork, deadlines for applications missed (Oh! We're sorry but we just didn't receive your paper work in time. And when did receive it, it didn't comply with our mandatory two-paper-clip format. So sorry you won't be joining us at XYZ race. We sincerely hope that your sponsor understands the dilemma you've now created for yourself.)

I am genuinely interested as well.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I am genuinely interested as well.

So I went looking. It's not directly On Topic, but relates to the question of: what could UCI / ASO do? It also sounds exactly like what they would say if a rider was hired (ethical reasons) against their wishes.


December 19, 2012: UCI cites ‘ethical reasons’ for Katusha WorldTour snub

February 15th, 2013: CAS orders WorldTour licence for Katusha

So not a precedent, but certainly pre-Cookson.

 

[Granville57]

December 19, 2012: UCI cites ‘ethical reasons’ for Katusha WorldTour snub

Revisiting that story is hysterical! The UCI actually comes off as some sort of "investigative" body. It's truly amazing what they can come up with, when they set their minds to it.

But the last two paragraphs of that story pretty much lay it out. They could find any number of reasons to make a team, essentially, disappear.


I imagine something like this:
"OK...OK...OK...I got it. Floyd who? I can't even remember the guy's full name now anyway. So...we'll see each other in Paris, Yes?"

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Revisiting that story is hysterical! The UCI actually comes off as some sort of "investigative" body. It's truly amazing what they can come up with, when they set their minds to it.

But the last two paragraphs of that story pretty much lay it out. They could find any number of reasons to make a team, essentially, disappear.


I imagine something like this:
"OK...OK...OK...I got it. Floyd who? I can't even remember the guy's full name now anyway. So...we'll see each other in Paris, Yes?"

Yeah it makes you shudder.

But it also has a happy ending

 

[blackcat]

Revisiting that story is hysterical! The UCI actually comes off as some sort of "investigative" body. It's truly amazing what they can come up with, when they set their minds to it.

But the last two paragraphs of that story pretty much lay it out. They could find any number of reasons to make a team, essentially, disappear.


I imagine something like this:
"OK...OK...OK...I got it. Floyd who? I can't even remember the guy's full name now anyway. So...we'll see each other in Paris, Yes?"

not the guy's full name.

strikethru

the guy's fall name

#phonetics
0r without a hashtag

#phonics

mennonites or amish are the exception to the anglophone rule, they are troglodyte bumpkin

 

[DirtyWorks]

I am genuinely interested as well.

The process for getting a WT license, as I understand it, is secret. Someone at the UCI really, really, REALLY didn't like Makarov because the UCI turns down a whole bunch of money if they do not grant a WT license.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I am genuinely interested as well.

The process for getting a WT license, as I understand it, is secret. Someone at the UCI really, really, REALLY didn't like Makarov because the UCI turns down a whole bunch of money if they do not grant a WT license.

One thing we know about the modern UCI, getting paid is job #1.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This is why I always thought STRAVA would be so cool if the pros actually used it (and no, I have no affiliation whatsoever except that I think its a novel concept). There would be no arguing about starting places, finishes, or times! Maybe this is precisely why they don't use it, so nothing can really be accurate.....

Except, Strava doesn't know starting places or finishing times with any accuracy at all. Ever. I know those pretty graphs and Google's map system sure make it seem accurate, but not even close.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Except, Strava doesn't know starting places or finishing times with any accuracy at all. Ever. I know those pretty graphs and Google's map system sure make it seem accurate, but not even close.

But if they have the data files with the GPS info, you can still standardise a segment to the same starting point, and then the comparison is far more consistent, at least.

 

[D-Queued]

Except, Strava doesn't know starting places or finishing times with any accuracy at all. Ever. I know those pretty graphs and Google's map system sure make it seem accurate, but not even close.

Strava is limited by the accuracy of GPS.

Results are limited by the Strava heuristics, which don't work well when data is recorded at > 1 second intervals.

The biggest problems come with short segments. The Strava 'short segment' problem. Particularly noticeable if someone is recording at ~ 8 second intervals and going for KOMs on 100m segments. Apparently very common with iPhone users. Oddly, though, if these turkeys get a good time, especially as their speeds approach or exceed 70 kph on the flat, they are convinced that they actually earned it.

Strava is surprisingly accurate, though, when you consider these issues.

For long, uphill segments, the results are highly comparable when it comes to distance. Wind, temperature and humidity, however, are going to be far more of an issue.

Dave.

 

[Netserk]

So I went looking. It's not directly On Topic, but relates to the question of: what could UCI / ASO do? It also sounds exactly like what they would say if a rider was hired (ethical reasons) against their wishes.


December 19, 2012: UCI cites ‘ethical reasons’ for Katusha WorldTour snub

February 15th, 2013: CAS orders WorldTour licence for Katusha

So not a precedent, but certainly pre-Cookson.

It's the difference between World Tour and Pro Tour, if I have understood things correctly. Notice how under the 'old' system Astana wasn't invited to the '08 TdF and that Euskaltel didn't enter the Giro those years, until the new system that both promised and required every team participation in all PT events.

World Tour: 2005-2010
Pro Tour: 2011-

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's the difference between World Tour and Pro Tour, if I have understood things correctly. Notice how under the 'old' system Astana wasn't invited to the '08 TdF and that Euskaltel didn't enter the Giro those years, until the new system that both promised and required every team participation in all PT events.

World Tour: 2005-2010
Pro Tour: 2011-

Thanks .

 

[neineinei]

Revisiting that story is hysterical! The UCI actually comes off as some sort of "investigative" body. It's truly amazing what they can come up with, when they set their minds to it.

But the last two paragraphs of that story pretty much lay it out. They could find any number of reasons to make a team, essentially, disappear.


I imagine something like this:
"OK...OK...OK...I got it. Floyd who? I can't even remember the guy's full name now anyway. So...we'll see each other in Paris, Yes?"

Like when UCI, according to McQuaid, didn't let Alex Rasmussen ride Circuit de la Sarthe 2013 after his wherabouts ban, because Michael Rasmussen had a "lifetime ban".

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Strava is surprisingly accurate, though, when you consider these issues.

For long, uphill segments, the results are highly comparable when it comes to distance.

Strava and GPS devices seem to struggle for accuracy over short distances and for instantaneous speed. I've been credited with 70kmh for short segments when the overall stats on Strava indicate a maximum speed much lower than this. Also, when riding with a conventional speedo and a GPS device, when accelerating/decelerating, there are huge differences between the reported speeds on (GPS always looks dodgy vs conventional). There's also a few short climbs where I have apparently been hitting a VAM of 4000+!

On longer segments, Strava appears very accurate. I've hand-timed several medium length hill interval (e.g. 5 to 8 minutes) sessions and then subsequently Stravad the session, and the Strava and hand-timed results for each climb are reliably within a second or two (i.e. within the normal bounds of error when you are noting the time you start and finish vs marks on the road side.)

 

[Benotti69]

Roman Kreuziger passport anomalies for 2011, 2012 could only finish + 19:58 behind Hesjedal at Il Giro, who had a spike in his 3rd week blood test!!!

Clean generation, too cool to dope, Nah not buying this......

 

[del1962]

Roman Kreuziger passport anomalies for 2011, 2012 could only finish + 19:58 behind Hesjedal at Il Giro, who had a spike in his 3rd week blood test!!!

Clean generation, too cool to dope, Nah not buying this......

That is a ridiculous assumption, if a cat 4 rider started doping by your logic anyone who finished above him would be doping in any race.

 

[the sceptic]

That is a ridiculous assumption, if a cat 4 rider started doping by your logic anyone who finished above him would be doping in any race.

lets see: 2009 tour clean podium update

1: Wiggins
2: Vandevelde + 6 minutes
3: Le Mevel + 8 minutes

Seems legit.