JV talks, sort of

[Zam_Olyas]

It's just business, nothing personal, just business.

"It's all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of **** every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it's personal as hell"


Michael Corleone

As much as i am not a fan of JV but this thread is a great thread. Learning alot here.

 

[Benotti69]

"It's all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of **** every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it's personal as hell"


Michael Corleone

Nice quote Zam. Molto buono, Bravo!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's just business, nothing personal, just business.

Professional cycling is business. Apologies if I burst your bubble.

 

[BroDeal]

I can hear it now.

"Sorry, but fcuk you, Floyd. By the way, would you please not name any names. It would make it a bit uncomfortable for the team. If you see him, give my regards to Frankie."

 

[Benotti69]

Professional cycling is business. Apologies if I burst your bubble.

It was long burst before t'internet.

Doping in pro cycling is still a big part of the business and calling teams clean is part of the marketing BS.

JV is in here as part of his marketing Slipstream as clean. As you said professional cycling is business and t'internet is now more than ever part of marketing the message.

I am not making a purchase at this moment.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Professional cycling is business. Apologies if I burst your bubble.

OF course it is buisiness but don't make it sound like you are the one and only clean team around. Get outta here. Ask why Eric Boyer was sacked at Cofidis.

Would like to know what the other teams think of 'the clean team'. Vandevelde and doctor Sovndal still in buisiness with Lim though. Must be old habits.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

JV is in here as part of his marketing Slipstream as clean.

If he really thinks that arguing his corner on a moderate sized internet subforum, with a poster base including a significant number of people who wouldn't believe him if he raised the dead and walked on water, is a useful marketing exercise, I can only suggest that he enroll in that MBA sooner rather than later.

It is not possible in today's pro cycling environment to be clean as a team.

My problem with your position is that it seems more like a declaration of principles than a proposition for discussion.

In my view, we have a reasonably good, tentative idea of the kinds of power outputs an excellent endurance athlete can be expected to sustain. Cycling has been a sport where performances well in excess of those expectations have been the norm. If effective doping is successfully limited to such an extent that performances in excess of those expected results are non-existent or extremely rare, then there is no objective reason why a clean rider can't compete (albeit at some degree of disadvantage) and no objective reason why being "clean as a team" should be impossible.

Now, a lack of superhuman outputs by no means indicates a lack of doping. And a lack of superhuman performances by no means proves that a particular athlete is clean. But it does establish the possibility that he is clean. I think that there's an argument to be had about how the status quo compares with that theoretical situation. But I think that you preempt that argument.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

OF course it is buisiness but don't make it sound like you are the one and only clean team around.

They don't claim to be the one and only clean team around, now or in the past. Vaughters own account of his background includes an emphasis on the anti-doping management of Credit Agricole. On a wider scale, his arguments about the declining dirtiness of the peloton assume that many other teams at the very least aren't jacking up on the team bus.

 

[AntiGravityCycling]

Of course it is possible to be clean as a team today.

If you said ..."be clean as a team and hang with Sky, et al in the third week of a GT"... I would agree with you.

Things ARE moving, and generally in the right direction. I think there is a lot yet to be done before the typical doping advantage that can be gained without detection will be smaller than, say, one standard deviation among the differences in the pro peloton. If you speak statistics...

The teams would seem to be some combination of working harder and smarter than the WADA / USADA folks. UCI should not even be allowed to continue to exist in its present form.

 

[perfessor]

why are you ignoring Jaksche?
Jaksche did a couple of tell-alls on german tv and media.
he named Contador, he named Riis, he named his supplier (though the supplier was obviously already widely known).
In addition, and for what it's worth, Jaskche to me seems one of the more likeable (ex)members of the peloton. And he was craving to return to cycling.
Natural talent? I'd say plenty as well.
JV? nowhere to be seen.

Jaksche's one-handed push of Perreiro at 100kph in the tour puts him on my list of cool dudes, and it's criminal the way he got shoved out of cycling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tFpNsZXWgc

 

[mewmewmew13]

Jaksche's one-handed push of Perreiro at 100kph in the tour puts him on my list of cool dudes, and it's criminal the way he got shoved out of cycling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tFpNsZXWgc

Sheesh!
I had trouble watching it....I know how fast I descend in the mountains on the edge and it's nowhere close to 100km/hr!!!!

 

[Autobus]

It is not possible in today's pro cycling environment to be clean as a team....

.... The talk of change from with in is BS. The bio passport has been a joke. It has been used to cherry pick and choose and probably worse, blackmail.

The sport cant be clean while we have the UCI in its current guise. It cant be clean while we have DS's who are part of the old school of doping. Even the new DS who were not part of the old school are turning old school. Hello Brailsford.

To those who feel like this I have to wonder why you bother to follow professional bicycle racing at all. With the IOC being the only oversight of UCI you shouldn't have any expectation that there will be fundamental change in the how the UCI does its business. Does the summer Olympics taking place in Qatter make anymore sense than the cycling world championships taking place in Qattar? The IOC may bounce Pat because his crazy antics have become a liability, but they will probably replace him with someone who is just as slimey, but a lot more polished. You may enjoy racing for the pure entertainment aspect, but then why get so worked up on the if Garmin is really clean or not? Arguing over whether JV is just laying on a thick layer of spin just seems pointless if there's no hope anyway. If you have no expectation that things will get better, why bother getting worked up over it. It isn't like this just happened yesterday and clean racing just disappeared.

There are certainly lots of reasons to be cynical, but come on. If you have no hope why don't you just stop following the sport and do something more constructive, like going for a ride of your own?

 

[mewmewmew13]

I was coming down a hill in the Canadian Rockies last week, I was not on my regular wheels ( Alchemy hubs, Velocity Rims and tubulars), I was on Ambrosio clincher rims and Schwalbe clinchers. Back wheel started getting squirrely at 86 KMH, so I backed off and started to rub the brakes.

Damn!

I will head up to 35-40 mph ...I'm old.

 

[D-Queued]

I was coming down a hill in the Canadian Rockies last week, I was not on my regular wheels ( Alchemy hubs, Velocity Rims and tubulars), I was on Ambrosio clincher rims and Schwalbe clinchers. Back wheel started getting squirrely at 86 KMH, so I backed off and started to rub the brakes.

Damn!

Way off topic now, but you should be able to go faster than that without any instability.

This is a physics problem.

High speed wobble is fundamentally a harmonic (see Tacoma Narrow Bridge). To fix the harmonic, just change the dynamics - try raising your **** off the saddle, shifting your seat position...

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

Steve Tilford needs a coffee. Either that or he just doesn't get it ...

http://stevetilford.com/?p=21198#comments

Tilford gets it just fine.

 

[thehog]

Tilford gets it just fine.

I would agree. "You guys don't want the real-life Landis confessional. Take my white picket fence doping tale made by Disney"...

 

[Viking]

- Why doesn't JV support the true whistleblowers? (I'm not talking about hiring them! A nice twitt "Go Jörg" would have done it). Because they're bad news for his sponsors.

I think this article by JV is a good example of supporting true whistleblowers. There's more to it than that, but I think it's a good piece and definitely relevant here.

 

[JV1973]

OK...I am done here. You guys are ridiculous and inconsistent. Keep talking to each other. I'm sure it will do some good.

There's no marketing effort here. Sorry, but I have never had one sponsor ever say "gee, the guys on the clinic aren't happy"..or "We sure do look good in the clinic forum!!"

Thank you to those of you that exhibit logic and thought. Sorry I can't answer more of your questions, as they are meaningful, and my intention in writing in was for those of you that do have real questions that make sense!!

Anyhow, I'm out. This is just too lame.

 

[mewmewmew13]

OK...I am done here. You guys are ridiculous and inconsistent. Keep talking to each other. I'm sure it will do some good.

There's no marketing effort here. Sorry, but I have never had one sponsor ever say "gee, the guys on the clinic aren't happy"..or "We sure do look good in the clinic forum!!"

Thank you to those of you that exhibit logic and thought. Sorry I can't answer more of your questions, as they are meaningful, and my intention in writing in was for those of you that do have real questions that make sense!!

Anyhow, I'm out. This is just too lame.

I hope you don't judge everyone on here in a negative clump. There are many thoughtful posters here with good intentions ....
You're not moving over to slowtwitch are you?

 

[JV1973]

Actually, that was a bit too judgmental. Sorry. Some of you are being too emotional and inconsistent. Many of you are debating in a good sense. I appreciate that, which is why I write in at times.

You guys just need a sanity screen or something. Some of the arguments I read on here amount to "because I said so!!!"

That just grates.

Anyhow, just PM me if you have a question that's really weighing on you.I will answer.

Oh, and why was the op-ed less than detailed? Because it's a 1000 word op-ed for a broad audience. Duh. I'm not writing about subcutaneous vs IV or reticulocytes to the NYT. Not that hard to figure out.

 

[Cavalier]

I'll divide this up into pros and cons and hopefully they'll explain why I'm conflicted every time I see JV write something:

* Admitted to doping
* Is committing himself publicly to clean sport
* Encourages riders to go to authorities and answer questions about doping
* Converses with fans of the sport - something very few do

That last one is somewhat important I think. Despite the following:

* Admitted to doping only once it was right for him to do so. There was no personal risk, no business risk, the events of over twelve years ago well gone from the vast majority of public consciousness. I struggle to balance this with really meaning anything significant. Floyd has sacrificed absolutely everything, with zero chance of getting it back. Had JV spoken up when he stopped riding, the entire world would have sat up and taken notice there and then.
* Despite conversing with fans of the sport, every time JV writes something about doping, it's non-specific. Made it clear in the past he only expects riders to answer honestly to authorities - immensely frustrating to both converse with fans of the sport and at the same time display lack of specificity.
* I still can't reconcile how riders were treated when it was announced they were leaving his team. ****ty points system or not, Garmin weren't at risk of losing license - especially young riders who weren't given chance.

I appreciate Jon that you have the welfare of all those you employ as your primary concern. But there's a greater evil at play here, and it concerns the welfare of every single person in the sport. You not paying them doesn't make that welfare less of a responsibility. Get these idiots out from running the sport. Clear public statements about the reality of what's going on won't result in a loss of license. There has never been a better time to speak loudly about the UCI.

 

[JV1973]

I hope you don't judge everyone on here in a negative clump. There are many thoughtful posters here with good intentions ....
You're not moving over to slowtwitch are you?

Yeah, I know. Sorry. that was too harsh.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

OK...I am done here. You guys are ridiculous and inconsistent. Keep talking to each other. I'm sure it will do some good.

There's no marketing effort here. Sorry, but I have never had one sponsor ever say "gee, the guys on the clinic aren't happy"..or "We sure do look good in the clinic forum!!"

Thank you to those of you that exhibit logic and thought. Sorry I can't answer more of your questions, as they are meaningful, and my intention in writing in was for those of you that do have real questions that make sense!!

Anyhow, I'm out. This is just too lame.

I hope you stick around, at least from time to time. It's not like there are any other people running teams who are willing to discuss these issues with random anonymous cycling fans on the internet. That said, I personally wouldn't have the ability to remain polite in the face of being called a dishonest weasel half a dozen times a day by people I'd never met. And I'm not all that thin-skinned.

 

[Spider1964]

OK...I am done here. You guys are ridiculous and inconsistent. Keep talking to each other. I'm sure it will do some good.

There's no marketing effort here. Sorry, but I have never had one sponsor ever say "gee, the guys on the clinic aren't happy"..or "We sure do look good in the clinic forum!!"

Thank you to those of you that exhibit logic and thought. Sorry I can't answer more of your questions, as they are meaningful, and my intention in writing in was for those of you that do have real questions that make sense!!

Anyhow, I'm out. This is just too lame.

That's a shame that you've been pestered out of here by a few clinicians spitting in the clinic soup. I've been reading from afar and find your thoughts a welcome insight.

I'd like to pose one question to you though, if you don't mind?

Nathan Haas rode with a mate of mine last year in the orange army and he was head and shoulders above anything else here in the NRS in Oz. Scientifically, how do you go about increasing his power output in todays climate? How do you increase his numbers legally? By scientifically I mean what type or changes to diet / supplements / training / races etc. And please don't go down the "Marginal Gains" route...

 

[mewmewmew13]

Yeah, I know. Sorry. that was too harsh.

JV, you know you really belong here.

If you get up to boulder for the race I'm sure that several of us nice clinic folks would be happy to toast you with a nice glass of Italian red at amante....