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JV talks, sort of

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Re:

DFA123 said:
So, to re-cap Cannondale's performance this TdF, with just the processional stage to go:

Highest placed rider: 16th
Second highest placed: 82nd
Highest mountain classificatin: 31st
Highest points classification: 44th
Highest youth classification: 12th
Stage Wins: 0
Stage Top 5s: 0
Stage Top 10s: 2

That is an embarrassment of a tour by any standards. Even a pro-conti team would be ashamed with those results.

The question is: is this the performance of a clean team in a dirty peloton?
Have you considered that they're just bad? There's a reason JV has cycled through more title sponsors than most other teams.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
DFA123 said:
So, to re-cap Cannondale's performance this TdF, with just the processional stage to go:

Highest placed rider: 16th
Second highest placed: 82nd
Highest mountain classificatin: 31st
Highest points classification: 44th
Highest youth classification: 12th
Stage Wins: 0
Stage Top 5s: 0
Stage Top 10s: 2

That is an embarrassment of a tour by any standards. Even a pro-conti team would be ashamed with those results.

The question is: is this the performance of a clean team in a dirty peloton?
Have you considered that they're just bad? There's a reason JV has cycled through more title sponsors than most other teams.
Not Mr MBA Smartarse JV :lol:
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
DFA123 said:
So, to re-cap Cannondale's performance this TdF, with just the processional stage to go:

Highest placed rider: 16th
Second highest placed: 82nd
Highest mountain classificatin: 31st
Highest points classification: 44th
Highest youth classification: 12th
Stage Wins: 0
Stage Top 5s: 0
Stage Top 10s: 2

That is an embarrassment of a tour by any standards. Even a pro-conti team would be ashamed with those results.

The question is: is this the performance of a clean team in a dirty peloton?
Have you considered that they're just bad? There's a reason JV has cycled through more title sponsors than most other teams.
Yes they are just bad, even if they let 1975 be like 1975, they might have got a stage win maybe 2.
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
Yes they are just bad, even if they let 1975 be like 1975, they might have got a stage win maybe 2.
They have got too used to an acquiescent American media that expects nothing more of them every year than another sob story, some 'gutsy' riding in which the only triumph is over adversity.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Yes they are just bad, even if they let 1975 be like 1975, they might have got a stage win maybe 2.
They have got too used to an acquiescent American media that expects nothing more of them every year than another sob story, some 'gutsy' riding in which the only triumph is over adversity.

They need to hire Taylor Phinney. That guys gets so much air time for just do clothing shoots.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Yes they are just bad, even if they let 1975 be like 1975, they might have got a stage win maybe 2.
They have got too used to an acquiescent American media that expects nothing more of them every year than another sob story, some 'gutsy' riding in which the only triumph is over adversity.
That is making a big assumption that the American sports media cares about cycling at all.
 
Mar 9, 2013
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American Sports Broadcasters. Care about as much about cycling as they do about getting root canal.

Not a Big Phinney fan. But he had a probable career ending injury. He showed a lot of promise prior. He is a media hyped rider. As is TJVG.

Back to Cannondale. Bad Tour. No doubt.

What is even more scary......Is Talansky will try to salvage the season at LaVuelta :rolleyes:
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Re:

DFA123 said:
So, to re-cap Cannondale's performance this TdF, with just the processional stage to go:

Highest placed rider: 16th
Second highest placed: 82nd
Highest mountain classificatin: 31st
Highest points classification: 44th
Highest youth classification: 12th
Stage Wins: 0
Stage Top 5s: 0
Stage Top 10s: 2

That is an embarrassment of a tour by any standards. Even a pro-conti team would be ashamed with those results.

The question is: is this the performance of a clean team in a dirty peloton?

I'd like to hear JVs updated thoughts on this; because if, as he proudly claims, this really is an era of clean cycling, then what is JV and the rest of the team staff doing in a job based on those results?
Well obviously an awfull result. But i would not just look at a single TDF, to small sample.

Rabobank had one of the biggest budgets in the sport, and now we know had a ''questionable'' stance on doping.
They had no stage win and nobody in the top 25 GQ in 2003.

In that 2003 TDF Euskaltel had Mayo and Zubeldia in the top 6 GQ and a stage win. In 2004 they had no stage wins and nobody in the top 25.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
fmk_RoI said:
djpbaltimore said:
That is making a big assumption that the American sports media cares about cycling at all.
VN
And there's the annual WSJ article in which JV says "Hey, look over there! It's not that we're rubbish, it's that they have more money!"
Anybody know cannondale's annual budget compared to say dimension data's budget?

The conclusion that JV is one of the lousiest team managers in the game seems inescapable.

He deserves no credit for Wiggins 2009 (as Wiggins was mostly in Manchester that year, per JV's own admission)
Nor does he get much credit for Hesjedal 2012 (spent most of the year training on Hawaii, with JV having no clue what he was up to. Again, that's per JV's own admission)
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
fmk_RoI said:
fmk_RoI said:
djpbaltimore said:
That is making a big assumption that the American sports media cares about cycling at all.
VN
And there's the annual WSJ article in which JV says "Hey, look over there! It's not that we're rubbish, it's that they have more money!"
Anybody know cannondale's annual budget compared to say dimension data's budget?

The conclusion that JV is one of the lousiest team managers in the game seems inescapable.

He gets no credit for Wiggins 2009 (as Wiggins was mostly in Manchester that year, per JV's own admission)
Nor does he get much credit for Hesjedal 2012 (spent most of the year training on Hawaii, with JV having no clue what he was up to. Again, that's per JV's own admission)
I assume 50% of this budget is spent on PR & their internal testing program (that doesn't actually exist) :)

L’Equipe estimated the budget for the well-liked American Cannondale-Drapac team at €10 million, or about $11 million
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
anybody know cannondale's annual budget compared to say dimension data's budget?
JV says it's €10m, others have said it's closer to €17m. L'Équipe put Dimension at €13.5m.

Dimension have had what, two sponsors in a decade (MTN, Dimension) while in that same period JV has gone through, Chipotle, Cervélo, Transitions, Barracuda, Sharp and Garmin. Yes, cycling's finances are unstable. When you're JV. How many others teams can boast that number of name sponsors in such a short period?
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
sniper said:
anybody know cannondale's annual budget compared to say dimension data's budget?
JV says it's €10m, others have said it's closer to €17m. L'Équipe put Dimension at €13.5m.

Dimension have had what, two sponsors in a decade (MTN, Dimension) while in that same period JV has gone through, Chipotle, Cervélo, Transitions, Barracuda, Sharp and Garmin. Yes, cycling's finances are unstable. When you're JV. How many others teams can boast that number of name sponsors in such a short period?
TIAA-CREF also at the beginning. Slipstream was a LLC sitting over private equity also.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
How many others teams can boast that number of name sponsors in such a short period?
Even Marc Coucke when he was cycling through his Omega Pharma brand names - Silence, Etixx, Omega, Davitamon, Predictor - hardly compares to the rate at which JV's team has had to change its name.

Why does this happen? Because ASO won't share TV revenue. Because Sky has more money. Because of others. Always, because of others.
 
Mar 14, 2016
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This thread summed up in one sentence:

"We all say we want clean cycling, but when someone comes up and actually does it we all make fun of how lousy they are"
 
Re:

CheckMyPecs said:
This thread summed up in one sentence:

"We all say we want clean cycling, but when someone comes up and actually does it we all make fun of how lousy they are"
But we're in an era of clean cycling, even according to JV. When the playing field is level and your team is still crap, you have to accept the causes. Or try and say the playing field is not level, this time because of financial doping.
 
Jul 25, 2016
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Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
CheckMyPecs said:
This thread summed up in one sentence:

"We all say we want clean cycling, but when someone comes up and actually does it we all make fun of how lousy they are"
But we're in an era of clean cycling, even according to JV. When the playing field is level and your team is still crap, you have to accept the causes. Or try and say the playing field is not level, this time because of financial doping.
so we need one little grain of spice to complete the chef's speciality: Cannon positive
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Re: Re:

Roninho said:
In that 2003 TDF Euskaltel had Mayo and Zubeldia in the top 6 GQ and a stage win. In 2004 they had no stage wins and nobody in the top 25.
The other teams caught on to Euskaltel using homologous blood doping and did not want to go down that route with the extra dangers it had over autologous transfusions. People were pissed. Armstrong, the skinflint who was loathe to spend money on anyone, donated a machine to detect it. Hamilton was caught in the crossfire. Armstrong gets the blame for being the bad guy instead of those putting everyone in danger.

The original Slipstream team had a few riders who were willing to keep doping. They could get a win or two or high placing. The rest could collect a paycheck while sucking. Management could look the other way if it kept the sponsors happy. After the dopers left for other teams or retired, there was nothing but the suck left. Someone on the team needs to step up.
 
Re: Re:

Roninho said:
Well obviously an awfull result. But i would not just look at a single TDF, to small sample.
How far back do we have to go for a good Tour for JV's selection? The last two years have sucked royally.

Yes, you can try and point to bad luck as a distraction for performance. But when you're looking at this level of bad luck you then have to ask what was being doing in past lives for this level of karmic retribution? Or, if you don't believe in karma, then you have to ask what is being done wrong that lessons are not being learned from?
 
Mar 6, 2009
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Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
sniper said:
anybody know cannondale's annual budget compared to say dimension data's budget?
JV says it's €10m, others have said it's closer to €17m. L'Équipe put Dimension at €13.5m.

Dimension have had what, two sponsors in a decade (MTN, Dimension) while in that same period JV has gone through, Chipotle, Cervélo, Transitions, Barracuda, Sharp and Garmin. Yes, cycling's finances are unstable. When you're JV. How many others teams can boast that number of name sponsors in such a short period?
I dont quite get your point here regards sponsors. Unless you are one of the mega teams with a huge backer, SKY, Astana, Katusha etc or private benefactors BMC/Tinkoff etc, chances are you will have to secure various sponsors to stay afloat. Garmin was the primary sponsor from 2008 until last season was it. 7-8 seasons. Not bad at all. All the other sponsors were secondary sponsors and Barracuda was a third sponsor. Cervelo were on the way out anyway when they ditched their own team.

Lampre have had Merida, ISD, Farnese, NGC and Fondital as secondary sponosors in the same time, Giant-Alpecin have been Giant-Shimano, Argos-Shimano, Skil-Shimano and are changing again next year I think . You mentioned Lotto but they have also had Belisol and now Soudal as secondary sponsors. Boguyes Telecom-Europcar-Direct Energie??? Teams like Radioshack and IAM have been here and gone. What about Columbia-HTC, Milram?

MTN were a continental team for most of their existence, not quite the same as backing a WT team, is it? then Pro-continental for a few seasons but they needed Dimension Data to move them up to WT level. Will they still be here in 7-8 years time?

No other US team have had consistent backers over long periods other than BMC and as I mentioned before, that is becaue they are bankrolled by Andy Rhiis. This justs seems like a silly notion to start slamming JV with.
 
Re:

CheckMyPecs said:
This thread summed up in one sentence:

"We all say we want clean cycling, but when someone comes up and actually does it we all make fun of how lousy they are"
Not really. There are two issues here - and the situation certainly is not as clear cut as your summary implies.

Firstly, are Cannondale clean or are they dirty but just rubbish?

Secondly, if Cannondale are clean; does JV still stand by his statement that this is a clean era of cycling? Because, if so, he must be a pretty awful manager to get such appalling results in a clean sport.

If Cannondale are clean, then obviously it's commendable in this sport. But if they are clean, then their manager should really be shouting from the rooftops about the unrealistic power outputs and performances from certain other riders and teams. The last thing he should be doing is maintaing the omerta - not least because it makes his own leadership look so poor.
 
May 26, 2010
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Jack Robertson

“Those involved in running sport are former athletes, so somehow I figured that they would have honor and integrity. But the people in charge are basically raping their sports and the system for self-interest. Sport is seriously broken.”
........
 

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